I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage

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quote:
(1) performance reserve and (2) which oil, if stressed REALLY hard will continue to give the good UOAs. I do not believe that a 2.9cP or less 5W-20 (or any oil) has the reserve under serious stress that a 3.5+cP does. I think everyone should comes to grip with what do you want. If you don't need a significant reserve or don't push your card hard, the lesser HT/HS oil should be fine. If you do, etc etc I believe that most people are going to believe what they want to about this whole issue so each should do what he or she wants to and is comfortable with.
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I don't have any disagreement with that at all. In fact, thats a good summary and pretty much what the Fuchs guy said. With lower viscosity oils, your that much closer to that lower limit of 2.6 HT/HS. So what you need to do then, is have an oil analysis done, evaluate the wear and go from their. If your 3.2 HT/HS oil didn't shear a bit, your pretty safe with that oil. It's obviously not meeting the conditions that would stress it out.
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If I owned a Vette, or Audi, I would absolutely have a 3.5 HT/HS. With my Honda, I feel that a 3.2 HT/HS is a good margin of saftey compared to the 2.6 HT/HS that is in their now. BTW, M1 10w-30 EP is the oil I'm going with. Picked up 6 quarts.
 
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
But the company is talking about a RACE OIL. Since they have already said not to use this oil on the street, logic demands that we read "some older engine designs" as "some older race engine designs." This is not talking about street engines or street use.
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I understand that, which is why I qualified my statement in suggesting an analogous situation:
quote:
While we may not be "under race conditions,"
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but we also have to consider that a well worn passenger car engine may leak enough thin oil at the mains to starve the top end.
 
I suppose the Xw-20 UOAs look good when compared to older 5w-30 dinos. Are there now 30 weights that can do better than 20 weights under severe conditions? I tend to think so. If you see an oil temp change from winter to summer, then why not use different viscosities? That "20 weight" might be ideal in winter, but a 30 might be the pick for summer. I am not afraid to use the 30 weight Mobil 1 in a new Honda. Anything thicker is probally unnecessary. I won't even put GC in the Honda until I think the Mobil 1 is somehow letting me down.
 
quote:
Originally posted by dustyjoe1:
I don't mean to step on any toes, but I really don't know that engines outside the US, although having the same engine name or from the same engine family are necessarily the same as US engines. Therefore, I cannot assume than an oil spec'd for a 1.7 honda engine in Europe or Australia will extend to my US based Honda. Why is A spec for a vehicle in say Europe more appropriate for my US Vehicle than what my US owners manual specifies for it? Doesn't make much sense to me, unless you are looking for a reason to ingore your manual regarding 20weight oils.
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I think that is a good point. I don't know how Honda's engine line-up breaks down world-wide these days. Honda, in the past, has shipped different spec engines to the US vs the rest of the world. For example, in the 1988-1991 Preludes, the US got the B20A5 (135HP 9.0:1) engine, Japan the B20A (140HP 9.4:1), Europe the B20A7 (160HP? 10:1), Australia the B20A9 (?). Add to that that the US is the only country that got EGR stuffed into it... Should all these engines run the same oil? With the same wear?

Is it also reasonable to assume that other maufacturers such as Toyota, etc, also ship different versions to different geographical regions?
 
Maybe this has been written already. Money talks.
By improving fuel mileage even by a small and measurable amount, a car maker may avoid penalties. The penalty for failing to meet CAFE standards recently increased from $5.00 to $5.50 per tenth of a mile per gallon for each tenth under the target value times the total volume of those vehicles manufactured for a given model year.
Since there is a financial benefit to meeting CAFE standards, most auto makers pay attention.
To quote Yogi Berra, "...and that's cash, which is just as good as money".
 
I doubt we'll ever know whether someone like Honda tweaks their engines for different markets and can thus recommend 5W-20 for the U.S. and, say 5W-30/40 for the same engine for Europe as this sort of thing may provide a competitive advantage and is thus proprietary knowledge. It may very well be that Honda does not. It may very well be that Honda sees U.S. driving conditions as different than European, sees CAFE as a driver for U.S. oil recommendation of "good enough" 5W-20 and/or recognizes that higher viscosity oils are the norm for Europe and does not see a marketing advantage to push 5W-20 in Europe (yet?).

Be all that as it may, for 99.1% of U.S. driving, with proper OCI (ie. following Honda's new oil life monitoring system), does anyone believe that for the first 250,000 miles, a person will notice any difference in their Honda engine if they used 5W-20 vs 5/10W-30?
 
quote:
Originally posted by ex_MGB:
I doubt we'll ever know whether someone like Honda tweaks their engines for different markets and can thus recommend 5W-20 for the U.S. and, say 5W-30/40 for the same engine for Europe as this sort of thing may provide a competitive advantage and is thus proprietary knowledge. It may very well be that Honda does not. It may very well be that Honda sees U.S. driving conditions as different than European, sees CAFE as a driver for U.S. oil recommendation of "good enough" 5W-20 and/or recognizes that higher viscosity oils are the norm for Europe and does not see a marketing advantage to push 5W-20 in Europe (yet?).

Be all that as it may, for 99.1% of U.S. driving, with proper OCI (ie. following Honda's new oil life monitoring system), does anyone believe that for the first 250,000 miles, a person will notice any difference in their Honda engine if they used 5W-20 vs 5/10W-30?
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Honda has no problem meeting CAFE standards so it is unlikely that CAFE is the reason they went to 20W oils.
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buster, I don't agree that it's entirely about 'pushing it hard'. I have found that oils like M-1 5-30 can't really do 10k OCI's unless you're adding 1L every 2k. A3 oils in the same engine are not generally consumed a tenth as much and their condition stays better longer.

Adding so much oil generally means it's burning off and this also allows for sludge/varnish build up. A 'no oil consuming' engine is a generally a clean engine.

Oils that have more cojones not only perform better (better lubricating film) but allow for a longer OCI without breaking down as fast.
 
Dr.T, their are many cars that go 10k miles on M1 0w-20 with no oil added. It depends on the car.

Why does everyone ignore the UOA's and always reference ONE case as the final word?

I don't understand why people keeping ignoring the UOA's on here. Dr.T, in your car maybe M1 does burn off. Could be the way M1 is formulated. It has a low Noak of 8%. Yet when some switch to dino, it stops. Yet many who switch report zero consumption.

For every 10 great UOA's on thin oil, when 1 comes along that is bad, people start ripping the oil "see you need thicker". Match the friggin viscosity with the engine.

If 20wt = great UOA,
Then stick with it!

If car needs thicker oil,
Then use one!
 
Show me the same engine with at least 10 intervals of 10K OCI's...for a total of 100k mi...

I'm not trying to be ignorant...I just don't remember seeing them...
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. T:
Show me the same engine with at least 10 intervals of 10K OCI's...for a total of 100k mi...

I'm not trying to be ignorant...I just don't remember seeing them...
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Seeing as how Mobil 1 5w30 is "almost" a 20W oil I can "almost" show you 36 10,000 OCIs and excellent performance in two vehicles.
grin.gif
 
Hmm, you have 2 vehicles both with 36 10k OCI's for a total of 360k mi. on each vehicle?

Great...point out the link. (Combos don't count)
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. T:
Hmm, you have 2 vehicles both with 36 10k OCI's for a total of 360k mi. on each vehicle?

Great...point out the link. (Combos don't count)
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Sorry for the confusion, 2 vehicles, a total of 360,000 miles.
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No problem...

Don't get me wrong...I just can't see using any 0/5-20 (in temps. over 20C) for 10k OCI's and then expecting a clean, non-oil consuming engine at 100+k. 3-4k OCI's may be a different story.

But with my 8 qt. capacity, OCI's are $80-100. I want an oil to hold up for the duration of 10k. A3 oil's hold up much better than A1 from my experience.
 
GC has an HTHS of 3.6! Show me a XW20 with an HTHS that high! Then you have the not specified for that engine thing going on! How many do you think on this site own a vechile that calls for a 20Wt.? Just about every vechile can use a 30Wt. according to their owners manual at some point so it is much easier to make the switch from a 10W30 to a 0W30 when you are still at a 30Wt.!

What would I gain buy going from 0W30 to a 5W20 or 0W20? Not a DARN thing! The XW20's are a solution in search of a problem! They do not offer any advantage over a comparbly built XW30. THen you toss the 5W40's and 0W40's into the ring and you have gained even less. What is a 0W20 going to do taht a 0W40 can not do? OW is OW and 5W is 5W.

If my Camry can start and run just fine on Redline 5W40 in -18°F tempatures why and the hel! would I even entertain a 5W20 or 0W20. I tried a 0W30 and that did fine so again why would I want to try a 0W20? What is it going to do for my engine that the above did not do? How do you hope to sell someone that ran a 5W40 at -18°F on the need to use a XW20 under those same conditions. It is even harder when you look at the fact that only a limited number of vechiles on the planet even recomend a 0W20! The larger list of vechiles recomending a 5W20 are still limited. Then you add to it that only vechiles in N.America specify the 5W20 (ruleing out specialized vechiles used in the artic)! It is like trying to sell dry ice to eskimo's sure it is colder then their ice but how cold does it need to be to keep their food frozen?
 
What would I gain buy going from 0W30 to a 5W20 or 0W20? Not a DARN thing! The XW20's are a solution in search of a problem! They do not offer any advantage over a comparbly built XW30. THen you toss the 5W40's and 0W40's into the ring and you have gained even less. What is a 0W20 going to do taht a 0W40 can not do? OW is OW and 5W is 5W.

What would you lose in buying a xw-20 weight? Although I dont think you'll save ANY startup/warmup wear, you'll be at a 30 weigth at a much eariler temp.

If my Camry can start and run just fine on Redline 5W40 in -18°F tempatures why and the hel! would I even entertain a 5W20 or 0W20.

Why not? What do you have to lose?

I tried a 0W30 and that did fine so again why would I want to try a 0W20? What is it going to do for my engine that the above did not do? Probably nothing. Again, why not?

How do you hope to sell someone that ran a 5W40 at -18°F on the need to use a XW20 under those same conditions.

I doubt that anyone using a 40 weight would entertain the use of a 5w-20 (except when M1 first came out)

It is even harder when you look at the fact that only a limited number of vechiles on the planet even recomend a 0W20! The larger list of vechiles recomending a 5W20 are still limited. Then you add to it that only vechiles in N.America specify the 5W20 (ruleing out specialized vechiles used in the artic)!

This was equally true when 5w-30 first appeared. It too was questioned as being too thin. Time has proven that it isn't. The same will most likely be true of 20 weights.

It is like trying to sell dry ice to eskimo's sure it is colder then their ice but how cold does it need to be to keep their food frozen? Never leave any potential market unexplored. People walk in droves into Wally World like cattle to buy junk.
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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007780;p=

Molakule post

In the latest issue of Engineering Tribology, Proceedings of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, Vol. 218, Part: J Journal of Tribology they were doing tests with various oils and additives to see how low a phosphorus level could be tolerated with respect to valvetrain wear.

Figure 11 shows almost linear increase in wear as oil ages. One of the comments was that wear tapers off as oil ages up to a point, and this was due to the increasing viscosity of oil as it ages.

At over 50 hours of testing and oil sampling, the total cam wear was only 0.43 mg.

There was a slight bump in the graph for zero to two hours of operation where the wear increased only 0.05 mg. I would NOT call this accelerated wear.

The author's comment:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Further experiments are underway to explain this effect."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, according to this paper, 1.) an engine can tolerate P-levels down to 250 ppm (approx. 0.025%) if supplemental (secondary) anti-wear additives are present.
 
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