As I'm not the first to point out in this thread, "start up" is a horribly misleading term. The wear issue is not a consequence of what happens when you turn the key, but a consequence of transitioning the engine from ambient to operating temperature. Perhaps something like "heat cycle" wear would be a more appropiate description.
"Most wear occurs at start-up"
- Thread starter Brian Barnhart
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Call it "Warm Up Wear."
Fascinating idea to put 2-cycle oil in the fuel to combat warm up wear.
Fascinating idea to put 2-cycle oil in the fuel to combat warm up wear.
I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.
It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.
It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.
It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.
It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.
Surely if you are thinking about installing a sump heating, wouldn't you be better off using a 0w20 weight full PAO/ester oil with a an oil filter bypass filteration system.
This would get circulation up to all of the critical parts, and any microscopic wear and byproduct combustion contaminants would be removed by the bypass filtration system. This is what I would do if I lived in a cold climate.
IMO an oil sump heater is fine if are able to connect it to a power point and don't park on street etc but take into account extra draw on electricity it doesn't fit in well with the GREEN sustainability environmental principles. As well as the minute cost in power usage.
I think it is an important point to remember, that as responsible BITOG members we swear to:
raise our right hand,
put the left hand on our heart and
decree to uphold and look after the environment and
our future well being when
endorsing any anti wear systems that may consume more energy than necessary.
If by, not using a sump heater off the Grid system, means burning less oil for electricity and saves some pollution, then some sub microscopic wear in the engine is tolerable.
This is the proposed new BITOG TRADING CARBON POLLUTION INCREASES VERSUS MICROSCOPIC ENGINE WEAR AGREEMENT to be entered new members must swear to before joining.
This would get circulation up to all of the critical parts, and any microscopic wear and byproduct combustion contaminants would be removed by the bypass filtration system. This is what I would do if I lived in a cold climate.
IMO an oil sump heater is fine if are able to connect it to a power point and don't park on street etc but take into account extra draw on electricity it doesn't fit in well with the GREEN sustainability environmental principles. As well as the minute cost in power usage.
I think it is an important point to remember, that as responsible BITOG members we swear to:
raise our right hand,
put the left hand on our heart and
decree to uphold and look after the environment and
our future well being when
endorsing any anti wear systems that may consume more energy than necessary.
If by, not using a sump heater off the Grid system, means burning less oil for electricity and saves some pollution, then some sub microscopic wear in the engine is tolerable.
This is the proposed new BITOG TRADING CARBON POLLUTION INCREASES VERSUS MICROSCOPIC ENGINE WEAR AGREEMENT to be entered new members must swear to before joining.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: virginoil
This is the proposed new BITOG TRADING CARBON POLLUTION INCREASES VERSUS MICROSCOPIC ENGINE WEAR AGREEMENT to be entered new members must swear to before joining.
Will there be a tattoo involved?
This is the proposed new BITOG TRADING CARBON POLLUTION INCREASES VERSUS MICROSCOPIC ENGINE WEAR AGREEMENT to be entered new members must swear to before joining.
Will there be a tattoo involved?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If this has any merit to it...all that anyone need do is install sump heaters and the majors can send the AW R&D labs on a permanent lay off.
Sure seems like it but the thermal mass of the oil is so much less than that of the engine that the whole thing would quickly normalize at within a few degrees of the startup temp I imagine.
I bet in the referenced tests they had a steady supply of heated oil, or else re-heated it as it cycled back into the cold engine.
I like the idea of block heaters, and sump heaters too, especially with this new bit of knowledge, which is new to me. What I always run into when I think about it though is the cost/benefit of pumping many hundreds of watts of heat into an engine for hours to save what is really a very small amount of wear, and even then it only works for those starts where you know in advance when the engine will be started.
One other thing this has bearing on is the debate about warm-up time before driving. It lends credence to the current wisdom that driving off right away will reduce overall wear as it brings the oil up to temp more quickly, as opposed to letting it idle for a while.
If this has any merit to it...all that anyone need do is install sump heaters and the majors can send the AW R&D labs on a permanent lay off.
Sure seems like it but the thermal mass of the oil is so much less than that of the engine that the whole thing would quickly normalize at within a few degrees of the startup temp I imagine.
I bet in the referenced tests they had a steady supply of heated oil, or else re-heated it as it cycled back into the cold engine.
I like the idea of block heaters, and sump heaters too, especially with this new bit of knowledge, which is new to me. What I always run into when I think about it though is the cost/benefit of pumping many hundreds of watts of heat into an engine for hours to save what is really a very small amount of wear, and even then it only works for those starts where you know in advance when the engine will be started.
One other thing this has bearing on is the debate about warm-up time before driving. It lends credence to the current wisdom that driving off right away will reduce overall wear as it brings the oil up to temp more quickly, as opposed to letting it idle for a while.
Sorry this is one for the BITOG marketing department.
Your moving to quick for me.
We could offer a prize.
One question that has comes to mind where does the tattoo go ?
Your moving to quick for me.
We could offer a prize.
One question that has comes to mind where does the tattoo go ?
Originally Posted By: virginoil
One question that has comes to mind where does the tattoo go ?
Next to your drain plug!
One question that has comes to mind where does the tattoo go ?
Next to your drain plug!
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.
It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.
It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.
Thanks, so about one ounce per 4 gallons. Might give it a try. Only thing is to remember to add every tank. That's where it could fail, for me anyway.
I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.
It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.
It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.
Thanks, so about one ounce per 4 gallons. Might give it a try. Only thing is to remember to add every tank. That's where it could fail, for me anyway.
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
Because clearances are sloppier when the engine is cold, namely piston to cylinder and ring to ringland. It has nothing to do with the oil being cold.
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
Because clearances are sloppier when the engine is cold, namely piston to cylinder and ring to ringland. It has nothing to do with the oil being cold.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.
It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.
It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.
I was speaking with a friend of mine who is a mechanic, and he was telling me last week that he has been doing this as well w/his own personal blends of diesel that he uses in his 99 SuperDuty w/the 7.3 PS engine. Now I'm just getting ready to place my order with AmsOil, so I'm wonder now whether or not I shouldn't be adding some of the Interceptor 2 cycle to the order.
Is this the proper choice from the AmsOil line, and what ratio, the same 500:1??? Audi Junkie, did you experiment w/different ratios, or select the 500:1 number based on some other study/test?
I'm on my 3rd gallon of PZ Marine 2C oil, $10. Real cost is $7 because it replaces a G of gas. At 500:1, it costs me about $.18c to treat 10 gallons, under $.02c a gallon. Used it since new on the Accord. To break-even, I need an extra 2 miles out of that 10 gallons, or 300 miles driving. 1% gain is a reasonable goal from the entire automobile system.
It's not just break-even, because the 2C has other fuel additives, etc...it just improves the fuel. It protects the fuel system from alcohols too. Anyway, I think I get that 1% and more. Engine definately runs nicer. Excellent for track vehicles.
It's tough to justify spending extra money for fuel, but I think this is a winnner. I'd love to see a UOA of a 2C user. Kinda off-topic, but as a cold weather start wear protector...I think it is a total hit.
I was speaking with a friend of mine who is a mechanic, and he was telling me last week that he has been doing this as well w/his own personal blends of diesel that he uses in his 99 SuperDuty w/the 7.3 PS engine. Now I'm just getting ready to place my order with AmsOil, so I'm wonder now whether or not I shouldn't be adding some of the Interceptor 2 cycle to the order.
Is this the proper choice from the AmsOil line, and what ratio, the same 500:1??? Audi Junkie, did you experiment w/different ratios, or select the 500:1 number based on some other study/test?
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
aehaas
Yes high dirt ingestion is a very effective way to wear out an engine. Fuel dilution chemically degrades the oil and increases wear through chemical processes. But yes, bad dirt ingestion is usually a worse problem to have than bad fuel dilution.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear.
aehaas
Some of the people in that group formulate oils, some test oils, some are using the best modeling and simulation in the world to study lubrication, and others design engines.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
In one of the threads you made about the test results indicated that the different viscosities tested did not effect start up wear. What, other than thicker oil, is the case when oil is cold? The chemical reaction rates of the anti-wear additives are lower.
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
aehaas
Yes high dirt ingestion is a very effective way to wear out an engine. Fuel dilution chemically degrades the oil and increases wear through chemical processes. But yes, bad dirt ingestion is usually a worse problem to have than bad fuel dilution.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear.
aehaas
Some of the people in that group formulate oils, some test oils, some are using the best modeling and simulation in the world to study lubrication, and others design engines.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
In one of the threads you made about the test results indicated that the different viscosities tested did not effect start up wear. What, other than thicker oil, is the case when oil is cold? The chemical reaction rates of the anti-wear additives are lower.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
When the oil is the thickest is when the engine is cold so go back to the other posts that describe what happens in an engine going through the cold start and warm up and put it altogether then we can explain these things. I agree 100% about the most important filter is the air filter.
The type of oil has a small effect on wear. The type of oil filter has a small effect on engine wear, so does fuel dilution. But poor air filtration has a profound effect on engine wear, more than all the other issues put together.
People worry about film thickness and claim it to be important for preventing wear. Yet wear is the most when the oil is thickest. How does one explain these things?
aehaas
When the oil is the thickest is when the engine is cold so go back to the other posts that describe what happens in an engine going through the cold start and warm up and put it altogether then we can explain these things. I agree 100% about the most important filter is the air filter.
"In one of the threads you made about the test results indicated that the different viscosities tested did not effect start up wear. "
That would be different viscosity grades. A 5W20 and a 10W40 had similar wear rates. Both are MUCH thicker than 9 or 14 cS as at operating temperature compared to the 80 - 120 cS at start up (taken at around 75 F).
Ergo very viscous, fat film viscosities (regardless of grades) have no wear benefits based solely on their very thick viscosities. Any oil is very thick at start up. People say that thick oil protects better against wear. Yet wear occurs most while the oil is very thick, all grades, in the start up period.
If a thicker viscosity provided for less wear then all oils should show less wear at start up than at normal operating temperatures - based on viscosity alone. This is another reason I feel that an oil's grade is just not that important when it comes to wear protection. Once again, one has to study ALL aspects of the motor oil to make judgements on their proper, tailored use for your particular application.
Sure, go by the book. But because you are educated (not talking about a particular person here) you should be able to make a better choice for you and your car than those recommendations (by automotive engineers) made for a general population.
You may need to go thicker or can go thinner as I often do. This allows for less wear in every way that I have tested in my cars. And I get more power and more MPG. I win. Vinco!
aehaas
That would be different viscosity grades. A 5W20 and a 10W40 had similar wear rates. Both are MUCH thicker than 9 or 14 cS as at operating temperature compared to the 80 - 120 cS at start up (taken at around 75 F).
Ergo very viscous, fat film viscosities (regardless of grades) have no wear benefits based solely on their very thick viscosities. Any oil is very thick at start up. People say that thick oil protects better against wear. Yet wear occurs most while the oil is very thick, all grades, in the start up period.
If a thicker viscosity provided for less wear then all oils should show less wear at start up than at normal operating temperatures - based on viscosity alone. This is another reason I feel that an oil's grade is just not that important when it comes to wear protection. Once again, one has to study ALL aspects of the motor oil to make judgements on their proper, tailored use for your particular application.
Sure, go by the book. But because you are educated (not talking about a particular person here) you should be able to make a better choice for you and your car than those recommendations (by automotive engineers) made for a general population.
You may need to go thicker or can go thinner as I often do. This allows for less wear in every way that I have tested in my cars. And I get more power and more MPG. I win. Vinco!
aehaas
Wear was most when the oil was cold but in these tests did not vary according to the viscosity. We are left, again, with the only variable that affected wear being the actual temperature of the oil and not any other factor: not engine clearances, film thicknesses nor anything else.
Of course dirt ingestion was not a variable here.
Of course dirt ingestion was not a variable here.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
That would be different viscosity grades. A 5W20 and a 10W40 had similar wear rates. Both are MUCH thicker than 9 or 14 cS as at operating temperature compared to the 80 - 120 cS at start up (taken at around 75 F).
Ergo very viscous, fat film viscosities (regardless of grades) have no wear benefits based solely on their very thick viscosities. Any oil is very thick at start up. People say that thick oil protects better against wear. Yet wear occurs most while the oil is very thick, all grades, in the start up period.
If a thicker viscosity provided for less wear then all oils should show less wear at start up than at normal operating temperatures - based on viscosity alone. This is another reason I feel that an oil's grade is just not that important when it comes to wear protection. Once again, one has to study ALL aspects of the motor oil to make judgements on their proper, tailored use for your particular application.
I can not argue with your logic. The explanation for greater wear when cold could then either be the chemical properties of the oil or the result of excess viscosity or any combination thereof. I do not see any way to distinguish between the two possibilities.
That would be different viscosity grades. A 5W20 and a 10W40 had similar wear rates. Both are MUCH thicker than 9 or 14 cS as at operating temperature compared to the 80 - 120 cS at start up (taken at around 75 F).
Ergo very viscous, fat film viscosities (regardless of grades) have no wear benefits based solely on their very thick viscosities. Any oil is very thick at start up. People say that thick oil protects better against wear. Yet wear occurs most while the oil is very thick, all grades, in the start up period.
If a thicker viscosity provided for less wear then all oils should show less wear at start up than at normal operating temperatures - based on viscosity alone. This is another reason I feel that an oil's grade is just not that important when it comes to wear protection. Once again, one has to study ALL aspects of the motor oil to make judgements on their proper, tailored use for your particular application.
I can not argue with your logic. The explanation for greater wear when cold could then either be the chemical properties of the oil or the result of excess viscosity or any combination thereof. I do not see any way to distinguish between the two possibilities.
Ok, if I have digested this entire thread correctly the general consensis is that HOT oil lubricates better than cold oil regardless of viscosity, within reason, and clearances don't seem to matter that much either. My thinking is hot oil may have a better shear strengh than cold oil. In other words its molecules have a greater attraction to one another than when cold. What does everyone think? Am I on to something or am I just full of it.
So I guess what everyone needs to do is put a heating pad under the engine compartment overnight to keep that oil nice and toasty for that morning start-up. If it doesn't work at least the cat will have a nice place to sleep.
So I guess what everyone needs to do is put a heating pad under the engine compartment overnight to keep that oil nice and toasty for that morning start-up. If it doesn't work at least the cat will have a nice place to sleep.
Originally Posted By: caddis
What ratio, the same 500:1??? Audi Junkie, did you experiment w/different ratios, or select the 500:1 number based on some other study/test?
The tops oils that are marketed as such, UCL & MMO, call for 3oz/10g. Form a cost/effectiveness perspective, I'm comfortable with that ratio. Like I said, and to keep on-topic, I double that when temps get low. It seems plausible that start-up is improved, even just cranking resistance.
What ratio, the same 500:1??? Audi Junkie, did you experiment w/different ratios, or select the 500:1 number based on some other study/test?
The tops oils that are marketed as such, UCL & MMO, call for 3oz/10g. Form a cost/effectiveness perspective, I'm comfortable with that ratio. Like I said, and to keep on-topic, I double that when temps get low. It seems plausible that start-up is improved, even just cranking resistance.
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