Nissan TD42T oil requirements

[tdi-rick]

According to Nissan, this engine requires an API CC or CD oil only ??!!
These are two obsolete standards, yet this is a modern, albeit indirect injection 4.2 litre turbo diesel.

I've read Shannows links from a week or two ago regarding the specific requirements for Japanese diesels, and the apparent recalcitrance of Nissan Australia to allow more modern oils to be used, so the question becomes;

Is Delvac 1 suitable to use in this engine ?

Up to now it has used either Castrol ??(dealer fill) or for the last 70 000km, Fuchs Titan Universal HD 15W-40, (local garage) to conform to warranty requirements.

The vehicle is now out of warranty (100 000km), a UOA will be performed, and I would like to use D 1 alongside Donaldson filters and not have to continually do an oil change every 5 000km (which feels like once every two weeks, although it would average out at once a month.)

Any thoughts ?

Rick.

 

[Shannow]

Rick,
Mobil techs tell me to use Delvac HP (Group 1), with 1.5% ash. If I want synthetic, they tell me to use M1.

Caltex techs tell me to use Delo CXJ (in spite of their website recommending Havoline supreme), and also tell me that if it was their car, they'd run Delo 400 (group II+). Also stated that all of their patrols with the ZD30 use delo400, and have done very well - part of their case to Nissan.

BP tell me to use Vanellus C4 which is their group 1 euro formula, 1.5% ash.

Nissan (here) want me to use their oil. The only technical inforamation that I can get from them is "CF-4, $23 for 5 litres". I'd guess from the price that it's group 1. Nissan Orange uses Valvoline 20W-50 semi-synthetic PCMO.

I still reckon that Delvac 1 is the answer, but I'm still tempted with M1 0W-40 until warranty expires.

[ February 25, 2004, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Shannow ]

 

[tdi-rick]

Thanks Shannow,
I suppose what I could do is just tip in $90/10.5 litres of D 1 and do a UOA after 5000km just to see what is happening.

All the local oil companies are playing it very conservatively with Nissan, aren't they.

Both Mobil D1 and Fuchs' Titan Ultra MC are global DHD-1 and JASO DH-1 oils, yet both companies recommendations for Nissan are for their most 'technically challenged' oils.

Confused, I am.

Rick.

 

[Shannow]

AV8R,
that's the point. Nissan actually claim that CG-4 and onwards will damage their engines.

A couple of failed pistons have occurred in Australia that they blamed on the grade of oil that was used (apparently underpiston deposits allowed the crown to soften). They later repaired that.

Toyota had a big end problem, that at one stage was being blamed on the oil also.

Here's a couple of threads that I started to try to dispel my confusion.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000089
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000161

 

[heyjay]

Shannow:

I disagree with Nissan that "modern" HD diesel motor oils, especially CI-4 rated oils, allow excessive deposits to form.

Thanks to EPA-mandated emissions controls here in North America, if anything we have a much bigger deposit-control issue than other parts of the world.

To minimise blowby, engine makers had to move the Ring Land much closer to the Crown Land of the piston. Oils with poor quality additives and/or basestocks couldn't handle the much higher ring temps and broke down.

This created Ring Grove Fill, which caused the rings to stick and then to break. When the rings stuck, the motor used massive amounts of oil and created Crown Land deposits as well.

Synthetics like Mobil Delvac 1 didn't seem to have a problem with the redesigned pistons and did not appear to cause excessive deposits.

About 3 years ago, the EPA again stepped in with tighter emissions controls. All HD diesel motors now require EGR in addition to the redesigned pistons.

As you can imagine, Exhaust Gas Recirculation introduced MASSIVE amounts of soot into the crankcase. Oils without the proper additive package tend to allow massive deposit formation in the Ring Land again.

And again Delvac 1 appeared able to handle the massive soot loads.

I think the reason why Nissan and Toyota stopped selling their LD diesel motors in Canada in the late 1980's (I don't think they were offered in the U.S. at all)is due to emissions requirements.

I suspect if Nissan or Toyota is having trouble with deposits forming UNDER the piston crown, that would imply an oil with poor volitility is breaking down and forming sludge/varnish.

If anything, oils rated CI-4 are MUCH better able to resist deposit formation, especially a good synthetic like Delvac 1.

I really don't see how a a CD or CF oil is BETTER at resisting deposit formation than a CG-4 or later oil . Ash only refers to the additive package, so if THAT was the case, you could run an Aviation oil with ZERO ash!

Indeed, one thing I've noticed with my HD equipment run on Delvac 1 is that the motors remain spotless throughout their life.

About the only thing I no longer like about Delvac 1, and this is a BIG deal for me, is the CI-4 reformulation appears to have really thickened the oil in cold temps.

At one time, it was the cold temp properties that really made me switch to Delvac 1. Especially in temps colder than -35. Now it no longer appears suitable below -35, and this winter I saw -42 a few times.

I doubt you have to worry about temps that cold where you live. Otherwise, I would think that Delvac 1 would be far superior for your motor.

Is the same motor available in Europe? What is the recommendation there?

Jerry

 

[AV8R]

We ran a number of Nissan diesels south of the border in the '90s, and a CD oil was recommended for those also, as I recall. We used Exxon XD-3, then CF, in all of those engines, as well as Cat 3406s and a variety of gas engines. We never had anything but great analyses and troublefree operation.

Since most of the Nissan diesels are exported to countries other than the US, the second and third worlders particularly, I believe they may be making a blanket recommendation for CD high-ash oils anticipating that their engines may be used with high-sulfur fuels. For countries in which only poor-quality fuels are available, and availability of fancy oils is low or nonexistent, I believe CD is still a good choice. However, personal experience leads me to believe that better fuels and oils will give excellent results in the Nissan light diesel line. If anyone knows of an engine being hurt by a CI-4 oil, please let me know about it.

 

[AV8R]

heyjay and shannow,
"heyjay

yep, Nissan have a brochure that rambles on about the difference between detergency and dispercency, and that low ash oils eat the cams out of the engines, thus the specification not to use better than CF-4.

I spoke to their Oz tech depertment, who restated this bulletin verbatum. I pointed out that the oil manufacturers are now specifying petrol engine oils to meet the Nissan requirements, and the response was that if it meets no better than CF-4 and is diesel rated, it is approved by Nissan.

The oil techs I've spoken to are pissed with it, as they KNOW from their own fleets that there top range oil works a treat with these engines, but are forced into specifying either group 1 diesel oils, or higher grade petrol engine oils. "

I agree with your theories about the desirability of CI-4s in this engine, especially regarding deposits. It is interesting, though, that the paragraph above claims that oils other than CF 'eat camshafts'. I have seen ohc engines eat cams, even with CD oils. The culprit is condensation of blowby gases on the cam during warmup when the cam temperature is less than the dewpoint gases, resulting in condensation of sulfurous and sulfuric acids, especially severe when high sulfur fuels are used. The cams on some ohc engines run cool even at normal water jacket temps, aggravating the problem. CD oils perform well for engines that are used in near-continuous operation, and poorly in stop-and-go service, partly because they were not optimized for corrosion protection. The CF and higher oils do better with corrosion protection and minimize corrosive cam wear in low temperature service. But the much-lower levels of zinc in CF and higher oils may be insufficient for a poor valvetrain design with higher than practical contact pressures or a harmonic problem. SO if non-CD-CF oils eat cams, the valvetrain design may be faulty. Of course, high sulfur fuel will be a much more serious problem with CF and higher oils if the anticorrosion package is depleted. This engine may be the classic case of bad component design looking for an oil to fix the problem. SRI in San Antonio has rooms full of engines testing new additives to try to cope with unanticipated wear problems, indicating that lots of designers don't get it right before they go into production. In the end, you may be ****ed if you use a CD in stop-and-go driving, and ****ed if you use a low-zinc CI-4 and get unlucky. As far as detergents and dispersants go, the higher levels of dispersants should help a lot with under-crown deposits. The other implication was that somehow dispersants contributed to big-eng wear, which I doubt, as soot particles tend to be less than one micron in size, passing readily through bypass filters and bearing clearances. Higher levels of magnesium in old CD formulas (hard particle forming) and lower dispersants (larger particles) tend to favor big end wear. I've never seen big end problems with CI-4. I would dearly love to see the rocker ratio and valve seat and open pressures on this baby, and the temperature inside the valve cover during operation, and maybe a Cam Doctor profile on the lobe patterns. Then maybe some sense could be made of this.

 

[heyjay]

Hmmm, Nissan claims the oil "eats the cams" out of the motor? Something is Rotten in Denmark if the motor is THAT hard on cams.

For example, the Cummins ISX motors I operate have a DOHC design: one cam operates the unit pump diesel injector (Sort of like the new VW Pumpe Duse in their Golf and Lupo), and the other cam operates the intake and exhaust valves (Two of each per cylinder).

I would think that especially with the unit pump injector design, this would create tremendous forces and stress on the Cummins ISX camshaft.

Yet Cummins states CI-4 AND the CES 20078.

You're right: you're ****ed if you do and ****ed if you don't.

On the one hand, you may experience long-term engine deposit issues and faster wear. On the other hand, use the "wrong" oil and if there is a warranty-related engine problem, Nissan cann "prove" it's your fault and deny the claim.

So what exactly happened? Did well-meaning Toyota and Nissan LD diesel owners use HDEO's and were the motors exploding left and right?

Is high-sulfur diesel fuel used in Australia? I know the Europeans went to low-sulfur a few years ago.

Jerry

 

[sprintman]

Low Sulphur and getting lower all the time. BP have Ultra low sulphur diesel introduced July 2003. 50ppm ten times less than the std 500ppm norm. 50ppm mandatory from 2006.

 

[AV8R]

I agree completely. My comments about high-S fuels relate to third-world markets, where Toyota and Nissan are by far the biggest diesel suppliers, and good oils and fuels are normally n/a. If this engine tends to fail with CI-4, it's a design problem. Anyone know the specifics of the valvetrain design? Max rpm?

 

[Shannow]

AV8R, it's just a comment in the Nissan engine maintenance manual. The engine is DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder (need to find out about the lash adjusters, but there's no maintenance on them, so I assume hydraulic)

But they specify no better than CF-4 in every diesel sold here, regardless of valve configuration.

Same engine in Europe gets B3, E3. Nissan stated that these are european specs only, and will not meet warranty in Australia (CF-4 max, and Jaso DH-1).

 

[heyjay]

HUH??

ACEA B3: Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance car and light van diesel engines and / or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and / or for year-round use of low viscosity oils,
and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer.

ACEA E3: This lubricant category provides effective control with respect to piston cleanliness, bore polishing, wear, soot
handling and lubricant stability. It is therefore recommended for diesel engines meeting Euro 1 and Euro 2 emission requirements running under severe conditions. It is also suitable for extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer’s recommendations.

One should understand that B3 and E3, though perhaps not under the strict CI-4 specs for HD diesel motors with EGR, still would FAR exceed CD/CF oils.

Maybe in some nasty third-world country where diesel is so high in sulfur it glows bright yellow, a CD oil might be ok.

Otherwise, if the same motor requires B3/E3 in Europe, Delvac1 exceeds ACEA E3/E4/E5

Jerry

 

[Shannow]

Jerry, I tried that line with Nissan......"OK, I'll just use the oil specs for the same engine in Europe. I can get that oil here".

Only to be met with "No, the Australian recommendation is CF-4 and no better. If you exceed that perfromance rating, warranty will be void" (she forgot the Jaso DH-1 requirement, which Delvac 1 also has).

Anyway, that's why I'll have no qualms running D1 when I'm out of warranty.

(Maybe I ought to switch to Delvac HP in the interim, it's got 1.5% ash, rather than the 2% of the DeloCXJ. It meets B3, E3, E4, E5, Jaso DH1, Japanese CD, CF-4).

[ February 27, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Shannow ]

 

[heyjay]

Shannow:

This sounds almost as bad as argueing about your Property Tax Assessment. So it looks as if you have to do "what you have to do" until the warranty is over.

Cripes, though it does sound like a fairly large piece of s*** on their part. Wonder if maybe they fell under the influence of EPA CAFE rejects??

Well, at least you don't own a GMC Sierra 2500HD pickup with Vortec 8.1 litre V8 and are given the story that 1 litre of oil every 300 litres of gasoline is "normal" oil consumption!

Jerry

 

[Shannow]

quote:

---

Originally posted by heyjay:
Well, at least you don't own a GMC Sierra 2500HD pickup with Vortec 8.1 litre V8 and are given the story that 1 litre of oil every 300 litres of gasoline is "normal" oil consumption!

Jerry

---

Jerry, I didn't realise that the Vortec 8.1 was a two stroke

Yep, I'll just keep doing what I have to until warranty is over, then switch to D1, and get the aftermarket computer that ups it to 135kW.

 

[tdi-rick]

Thanks everyone.
D1 is going in the sump, and Donaldson is going to handle the filtration duties.
Castrol's finest syn lubes are about to be dropped in the driveline. (ATF is factory fill in the t/case, but 75W-90 GL4 oil is considered an ok replacement? Nissan are strange )

But I have to overcome the split tube in the aluminium radiator that reared its head yesterday first.

Rick.

 

[Shannow]

Rick,
from what I've seen around here, get a Natrad brass radiator replacement.

Getting the plastic tanks recored, or the aluminium core retanked only buys a few years for the remaining parts.

 

[tdi-rick]

Thanks Shannow,
I was seriously contemplating that alternative.
Also, a genuine rad. is also $572.45 + GST trade.

Rick.

 

[Shannow]

As to the tranny case, it's something that I've seen n my Toyota also.

If the gearbox is automatic, they use ATF in the Tranny. If it's a manual, they use GL-4/5.

I don't think that the chaindrive transfer cases really give a toss what's in them.

 

[heyjay]

Shannow:

HA! I do believe that a lot of Vortec 8.1 owners are wishing they DID have a two-stroke instead!

tdi-rick: sounds like a good plan.

Jerry