oil additive ??

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I work at a ford dealer and today this guy comes in to demonstrate this product by BG. I do not know how many of you have heard of this stuff. The product is BG MOA that you add to oil at a oil change. This guy did a test with an electric motor and a bearing. The test oil was mobil 1 5w30. firs he did the test with no oil... the bearing seized with very little little pressure applied to the bearing... next mobil 1 was placed in the case with the bearing and it seized at 250 pounds with a torque wrench... next he added a bit of this BG MOA and I personally went up and put all my weight (220 lbs.) on this torque wrench and it did not seize... This stuff blew my mind.. what do you all think!! Ther is a web site on this stuff... I cant remember it of hand but search for bg moa and it will come up.... Is this stuff a joke or what??? Just thought I'd share this with you!!!
Take care all!!
 
I'm having trouble picturing the test apparatus but what was the test supposed to prove?
 
the ability to reduce friction.. He tells me oil are suppose to meet a certain standard and all they do is make it meet the min. requirements! If you want better...( he says ) you need a product like this!! WHAT THE HECK????
 
To me it seems like the same "test" as the egg beater Lucas Stabilizer test. Explain how a ball bearing and torque wrench has anything to do with what goes on inside an engine where friction would need to be further reduced.
 
IIRC someone had a bottle of lemon-fresh Joy dishwashing liquid and demonstrated its "effectiveness" with this same test- no seizure of bearing. It could have been a different test though...

I'm not dissing BG MOA since I have never used it but the test method, well...
 
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Originally Posted By: mrjlube
I work at a ford dealer and today this guy comes in to demonstrate this product by BG. I do not know how many of you have heard of this stuff. The product is BG MOA that you add to oil at a oil change. This guy did a test with an electric motor and a bearing. The test oil was mobil 1 5w30. firs he did the test with no oil... the bearing seized with very little little pressure applied to the bearing... next mobil 1 was placed in the case with the bearing and it seized at 250 pounds with a torque wrench... next he added a bit of this BG MOA and I personally went up and put all my weight (220 lbs.) on this torque wrench and it did not seize... This stuff blew my mind.. what do you all think!! Ther is a web site on this stuff... I cant remember it of hand but search for bg moa and it will come up.... Is this stuff a joke or what??? Just thought I'd share this with you!!!
Take care all!!


I assume your dealership uses Motorcraft oils? If Ford thought their engines needed this product they would be selling it to you. I've seen this test many times by different vendors and I would still like to know where inside the engine this type of pressure takes place. Now, maybe on a ball joint or say a ring and pinion gear. Oh wait, there are EP additives in the gear oil and grease to take care of this. Please don't fleece your customers by selling them something they do not need.
 
BG has a good line of products, unfortunately the Ford sDealer here is the snakeoil...

BG's cleaning stuff is rated pretty highly, but an oil additive? I'm betting your Ford manual probably says not to add them. But then again, stDealership service dept's frequently contradict their manufacturer (i.e recommending 3000 OCIs).
 
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A little background here regarding me, so that you'll understand my opinion on this issue. I worked (past tense) for Ford for 16 years at the Indinapolis Steering Systems plant. I had access to lots of the engineering data, even related to other vehicle components. As a "gearhead" I would spend my lunches and such sometimes surfing the internal data from Ford.

I can tell you there is typically no need for any additives to any vehicle fluid, save for what might be formally suggested by the manufacturer (L/S diff friction modifiers, coolant additives for the old 7.3 PSD, etc).

With that in mind, you also have to think of the demonstration you saw in the context of not just lubricants, but hydrodynamic barriers. Most people forget that one of the most important contributing factors of engine oil is that part of it's job is to be a physical barrier between a moving part and a stationary part. Therefore, a series of hydrodynamic barriers develop, from the nearly-still outer boundry layers on the parts, to the high flowing fluids in mid-stream.

Think of a car that hydro-planes when driving across a deep puddle. One surface looses contact with another, right? Well, that hyrodynamic pressue is one of the main contributing effects regarding bearings and fluidsas well. You can run water in a pressureized plain bearing, and for a time, the "fluid" would help the parts float apart. The advantage to engine oil is that it has all kinds of other chemistry to better that relationship; additives such as anti-wear, anti-corrosion, dispersants, detergents, and a maybe even a little black-magic are added to help that relationship be extended well past water's ability. Further, the surface tention properties of lubricants enhance the relationship by inclusion. Perhaps the sliding friction of the piston ring and cylinder don't quite benefit as greatly from the pressurized scenario, but still nearly any liquid is a friction reducer and heat reducer when flowing between two parts.

The fact that the bearing seized almost immediately with no fluid does not suprise anyone. Adding oil, the results make for a marked improvement in performance; but again, no suprise, right?

The question is, when the BG product is added, is it bolstering a relationship past a point where it's presence is moot? I suspect so. Any decent brand name oil is engineered to give many, many thousands of miles of service in an engine, when used with decent OCI's; those lubricant property specifications are often a colaborative effort in studies done by the SAE and API. It's possible that the BG fluid created a film barrier greater than the Mobil 1 alone, but I would question why such a film barrier is even necessary. The BG would have to be either thicker, or more slippery, or a combination of the two. Further, the "thicker" the viscosity, the more resistant to flow, hence more pumping power is needed to overcome the resistance.

I like providing analogies, so that we can remove ourselves from the topic, and see things from a different perspective. Consider deer hunting. You could shoot a deer with a .22 rimfire, and it make put the deer down with a lucky spinal cord hit, or the deer might live for years with an "inconvenience". There are many calibers that are appropriate, such as shotgun slugs and common rifle chamberings. Then there's .50 BMG, Big Game .460x102, mortars, RPG's and such. Surely these huge rounds would put the animal down, but it would be a waste of money and a waste or resources. Get the point?

It's important to select a product that is appropriate for a particular use. BG products might likely enhance a product past a needed point, is what I'm saying. Sure, you leaned on the torque wrench with all your might, but since when does a crankshaft, con-rod, or cam lobe see any greater pressure than WOT under full load? An engine, and it's specified lubricants, were designed to meet this demand. BG might be capable of withstanding an increased load, but it's a load that will likely never been seen anyway.

I don't have any experience with BG, so it would be unfair for me to say it's a bad product. But I am always leary of adding an element to any environment that wasn't designed for "intruders". What are the long term effects of BG being in a system? How does it effect the host oil's chemistry? How does it effect operational efficiency? How does it effect OCI's? And so on ...

What I feel comfortable saying is that it's very likely an undeeded product. Traditional motor oils ("dino" or "synthetic") provide such a well-engineered service to vehicle components that additives for routine operation are moot, and therefore a waste.
 
I've used BG products many times, very good products. My brother in law is a mechanic at a dealership and gets it. I've used their fuel system cleaner/radiator flush with the machine and their oil change additive.

http://www.bgprod.com/home.html

Is their site
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
A little background here regarding me, so that you'll understand my opinion on this issue. I worked (past tense) for Ford for 16 years at the Indinapolis Steering Systems plant. I had access to lots of the engineering data, even related to other vehicle components. As a "gearhead" I would spend my lunches and such sometimes surfing the internal data from Ford.

I can tell you there is typically no need for any additives to any vehicle fluid, save for what might be formally suggested by the manufacturer (L/S diff friction modifiers, coolant additives for the old 7.3 PSD, etc).

With that in mind, you also have to think of the demonstration you saw in the context of not just lubricants, but hydrodynamic barriers. Most people forget that one of the most important contributing factors of engine oil is that part of it's job is to be a physical barrier between a moving part and a stationary part. Therefore, a series of hydrodynamic barriers develop, from the nearly-still outer boundry layers on the parts, to the high flowing fluids in mid-stream.

Think of a car that hydro-planes when driving across a deep puddle. One surface looses contact with another, right? Well, that hyrodynamic pressue is one of the main contributing effects regarding bearings and fluidsas well. You can run water in a pressureized plain bearing, and for a time, the "fluid" would help the parts float apart. The advantage to engine oil is that it has all kinds of other chemistry to better that relationship; additives such as anti-wear, anti-corrosion, dispersants, detergents, and a maybe even a little black-magic are added to help that relationship be extended well past water's ability. Further, the surface tention properties of lubricants enhance the relationship by inclusion. Perhaps the sliding friction of the piston ring and cylinder don't quite benefit as greatly from the pressurized scenario, but still nearly any liquid is a friction reducer and heat reducer when flowing between two parts.

The fact that the bearing seized almost immediately with no fluid does not suprise anyone. Adding oil, the results make for a marked improvement in performance; but again, no suprise, right?

The question is, when the BG product is added, is it bolstering a relationship past a point where it's presence is moot? I suspect so. Any decent brand name oil is engineered to give many, many thousands of miles of service in an engine, when used with decent OCI's; those lubricant property specifications are often a colaborative effort in studies done by the SAE and API. It's possible that the BG fluid created a film barrier greater than the Mobil 1 alone, but I would question why such a film barrier is even necessary. The BG would have to be either thicker, or more slippery, or a combination of the two. Further, the "thicker" the viscosity, the more resistant to flow, hence more pumping power is needed to overcome the resistance.

I like providing analogies, so that we can remove ourselves from the topic, and see things from a different perspective. Consider deer hunting. You could shoot a deer with a .22 rimfire, and it make put the deer down with a lucky spinal cord hit, or the deer might live for years with an "inconvenience". There are many calibers that are appropriate, such as shotgun slugs and common rifle chamberings. Then there's .50 BMG, Big Game .460x102, mortars, RPG's and such. Surely these huge rounds would put the animal down, but it would be a waste of money and a waste or resources. Get the point?

It's important to select a product that is appropriate for a particular use. BG products might likely enhance a product past a needed point, is what I'm saying. Sure, you leaned on the torque wrench with all your might, but since when does a crankshaft, con-rod, or cam lobe see any greater pressure than WOT under full load? An engine, and it's specified lubricants, were designed to meet this demand. BG might be capable of withstanding an increased load, but it's a load that will likely never been seen anyway.

I don't have any experience with BG, so it would be unfair for me to say it's a bad product. But I am always leary of adding an element to any environment that wasn't designed for "intruders". What are the long term effects of BG being in a system? How does it effect the host oil's chemistry? How does it effect operational efficiency? How does it effect OCI's? And so on ...

What I feel comfortable saying is that it's very likely an undeeded product. Traditional motor oils ("dino" or "synthetic") provide such a well-engineered service to vehicle components that additives for routine operation are moot, and therefore a waste.


dnewton3, you've done it again. Well thought out and written. And I agree, this should be in the oil additive section.
thumbsup2.gif
 
I have only heard good things about BG. Supposed to have an excellent fuel additive to clean out the combustion chambers. Never bought any because it is not readily available in most stores. I think mainly they like shops to carry it. I saw the fuel add stuff at a shop, about 12 to 16 oz can, was some $20! I'll stick with Schaeffer's Neutra 131 at those prices.
 
I've seen these kind of demonstrations before, they're designed for the "wow" factor, not for any useful informational purposes. As was mentioned, regular household bleach or Coca-Cola will perform just as well as their additive, but I sure wouldn't put them in my engine. It may be a good additive, but this test tells you nothing.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I like providing analogies, so that we can remove ourselves from the topic, and see things from a different perspective. Consider deer hunting. You could shoot a deer with a .22 rimfire, and it make put the deer down with a lucky spinal cord hit, or the deer might live for years with an "inconvenience". There are many calibers that are appropriate, such as shotgun slugs and common rifle chamberings. Then there's .50 BMG, Big Game .460x102, mortars, RPG's and such. Surely these huge rounds would put the animal down, but it would be a waste of money and a waste or resources. Get the point?


At what point of killing the animal are these huge rounds a waste of money or resources? The objective of killing the animal and prolonging the life of an engine are two total different things. We could also kill an animal with a rock like the caveman once did, but then again how often would you like to eat? Overkill (no punt intended) on engine protection is not such a bad thing. Just because one use the correct OEM recommended oil for an engine does not mean that the engine will last a long time.
 
I'm sorry if my analogy wasn't clear; sometimes I miss the mark.

What I meant to imply is that there is an appropriate level of tool needed for a job, with a desired outcome. The intent was to not only kill the deer, but eat it. Therefore a BMG round or RPG would destroy the animal and it's usefulness; the tool was too big for the desired result.

Perhaps a different analogy. Condisder a hammer and the typical framing nail. You can use a small 6 ounce hobby hammer on the framing nail, but you'd struggle to drive the nail, and it would take many successive strikes. You could use a good 22 oz framing hammer, and drive it in a few strikes to success. Or you could use a 5 lb sledge hammer. The sledge might drive it in one strike, but it could also possibly bend the nail, or destroy the wood upon impact.

The point is that the BG product might "improve" the oil to a level where it's new-found strength is not appropriate for the total environment, and there could likely be negative side effects. When looking at the description of the demonstation the OP posted, I cannot reconcile in my mind where a pressurized bearing would need such great film strength. The BG is likely developing a hydrodynamic barrier so strong that it's causing other complications in other component interactions.

Engine oil is used primarily for the hydrodynamic barrier in a pressurized bearing. But, that's not all an engine oil does. There are sliding frictions to overcome such as the rings and cam lobes. Also, there are yet other uses for oil, such as a force provider in a hydraulic piston-type device (such as a cam chain tensioner pushing against the chain slider). If the BG makes the oil too thick, it might not react quickly enough keep keep the chain properly tensioned. The oil is also a cooling agent; if the oil is "thicker" with the BG, does it not flow as designed? Many people don't stop to think that the oil's ability to extract heat from a surface is primarily determined by it's time exposure to that surface. If left on there too long, it can overheat the oil; thicker oil from the BG could make the oil dwell too long for some criteria. Did the demonstration show how well BG interacted with the detergent package? Or all the other additives with respect to their design intent?

To add a product that shows fantastic gains in only one arena, without any evidence of performance in the other rings of the circus, is short-sited at best. The demonstration showed only one thing; the additive can produce a result of greater film barrier, probably past a point where it's even needed. And it showed NO evidence of any other positive or negative effects with respect to all the other functions of motor oil.

Again, the API and SAE work in concert to develope fully functional lubricants with respect to all these conditions. It is important to know that a lubricant that it too think is just as detrimental as a lubricant that is too thin.

I've always been skeptical of lubricant additives that are not specified by the OEM, where the intent of the additive is to modify the lubricant and it's operating characteristics.
 
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The test sounds like it either is or is similar to the Timken OK load test (ASTM D 2509 for greases, ASTM D 2782 for fluids).

This would be the same test that generated so much discussion in the "Street Commodores" magazine test, which generally seemed to show that most every oil besides Royal Purple was lousy. This article seems to pop in discussion here with some regularity, but eventually it comes out that the magazine posted both a follow-up statement and article. The statement found on their website basically states they took a lot of guff for their article and reassessing it. The follow-up article basically admits that the first test really wasn't terribly scientific, may not be particularly relevant, and there's a whole lot more going on with with oil than just one test will show. There is also likely some signifcance in the fact while the original article is not available online, the follow up article is - http://www.streetcommodores.com.au/images/tech/PDF/132oiltech.pdf

Also informative on the Timken test is what the Timken company has to say about it:
Quote:
In their paper, "The Timken Lubricant Test - 1932 to 1972", presented at the 40th annual meeting of the National Lubricating Grease Institute, D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser of the Timken company reviewed the application and significance of the OK Load Test with EP lubricants.

Two items discussed in the paper are of particular interest. The hypothesis that gear oils which have higher Timken OK values will provide better scoring protection for gears and bearings was developed in the early 1930's. Recent developments in the chemical aspects of EP additives indicate that this is no longer true. In fact, it now appears that many of the more modern type chemical additives, particularly those successfully being used in the MIL-L-2105B type oils, have shown improved performance in preventing scoring in high temperature gear and bearing applications although they show a very decreased Timken load as compared to the leaded type or SCL type gear oils.

The authors also point out the lack of a direct across-the-board correlation between high Timken EP values and increased performance characteristics. It also appears that there is little correlation between Timken test results and other EP tests results, such as the Falex, the four-Ball tester and the more recently used FZG gear type tester.

The significance of the observations made by the Timken Company concerning the limitations of the OK Load test in predicting actual performance of EP oils should be recognized when making a product recommendation. A proven record of satisfactory performance in similar applications is of greater importance in recommending a product than merely selecting one whose Timken OK Load Test rating meets the specification. Documentation of
actual successful performance of EP oils is still the most valid way to support the claim that an oil will provide the required protection of gears and bearings.

According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers, the Timken test is "questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP".


Which all supports everything dnewton3 stated - It's a swell demo, but it doesn't have a lot to do with engine oil.
 
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