AEHaas thinner oil vs. 10W60 on old 500HP V8?

[6o4o]

After half a year running 5W30 on my 530HP Mopar 440 I was wondering if I shouldn't change to an oil like 10W60. I was told many times to do because they told me a 5W30 doesn't have such a film strength like a thicker oil.
What's this all about.. what happens if I race that car and the engine oil gets really hot (270F for example), a 5W30 will be to think to have a protective film OR WHAT protects my engine? When reading AEHaas his text you could think that as long my high volume oil pump can flow and keep the pressure I could even go up to 300F right? Or when do you say "I need a thicker oil"?
Will a 10W60 at 270F have more film strength than a 10W30 just because it it's thicker?

any comments on this?

 

[Gary Allan]

A high volume pump complicates the situation. Most will tell you, blindly, that you need to go to a 40 weight. While this may be true, it depends on where your pressures work out and whether or not your oil pump is in relief or not.

What are your pressures (peak cold, warm idle, warm/hot normal, beating the life out of it)??

If you never reach your relief limit after warm, then you can probably go up a viscosity range without losing flow. Whenever you're up against your relief setting, you're at a variable flow to the engine.

This is an older pushrod engine. If you've got heavier valve spring rates (which is sorta implied with your 530hp number), you may need the higher viscosity as well as higher additive levels that are typically found in the heavier oils.

I would tend to think something like an Xw-40 weight synthetic would work well in this situation.

 

[Lonnie]

If you're not burning oil at 270F your oil is doing it's job, except for the mentioned camshaft consideration. If you're drag racing your work load is different that say towing a heavy load up a hill on a hot day. You could have the problem of degrading you oil, but not burning it early in it's life, changing the oil after little use and not having a good reading on oil consumption. I think I would opt for an 10w-40 or 20w-50 if you are a fair weather driver. And you might want to take a look inside the oil filter after a cycle of use.

 

[Max_Wander]

5w30 to 10w60 is a little bit of excusion down the viscosity line, isnt it? Why not an HDEO 5w40 or 15w40?

 

[glenncof]

6o4o,

You said, “ When do you say "I need a thicker oil"?

I can’t answer the film strength/temp issue which could be technically resolved with some research.

I believe the question of what weight/type oil depends on what you are trying accomplish. You make no mention of real application and oil service strategy.

Is this a daily/occasional driver in Switzerland ? Seasonal usage/ temperatures ? Start&go or let it warm-up ? What type of racing, how often, etc.

Couple things I would suggest.

First, find forums of users of this type of engine in your specific race application. People who do this all the time can be very knowledgeable through costly $$$ experience. Go to people with experience especially with aggressive springs/cams as additives (like ZDDP) can be a factor.

Also I would be inclined to have a specific oil for racing and frequent change interval (like every race event). Off season storage oil can also be an issue. I’ve read of some using 5W20 to qualify then go heavier for long race.

If daily driver, then other considerations may dominate. You’ll need to sort this out as different wear-out mechanisms. Thicker oil could cost HP and require greater warm-up time or hard start in cold weather.

So depending on your race conditions/frequency/service you could identify what may be the best alternatives and then weigh this against oils for regular driving/maintenance conditions.

 

[Terry]

6o4o, More viscosity does NOTHING POSITIVE in a 530 HP MOPAR 440 to help with heat dissipation. What fuels do you run ? Is it also a daily or street rod? What sump setup? What oil pressures, oil filtering system? High or low tension oil control rings? Catch can or PCV scavenge system?

If drag raced how hot(coolant and oil) before FULL RPM burst to shutdown.

Do you use heater blankets or sticks for preheat?

If you are really concerned about wear control get a baseline in analysis for the current setup instead of guessing. $50 for our Premium Service is cheap insurance whatever lube you prefer.

Race only: In GENERAL ( and really there is no such thing in a raced car) a SAE 30 graded lube even in conventional base oil formulation at 100C is adequate, if purely drag raced SAE20 in a highly additized GRP III or higher base is recommended if it was mine.

Terry

www.dysonanalysis.com

 

[6o4o]

thanks for all the replies!

Oh well, that's the point, my oil pressure is very good! The mopar HV oil pump usually has the pop off valve set at around 60PSI.

My engine idles with Kendall 5W30 at around 2bar (900RPM) (30PSI) when hot and above 1500RPM I get about 4.5-5bar (65-72PSI). I NEVER saw my oil go over 100C (212F)! Once in a traffic jam it went up that much, but otherwise this engine keeps very cool, it's amazing.
The campshaft is pretty mild, 0.54" lift with 234* duration at 0.050". The springs are the stock ones that came with the edelbrock aluminium heads, nothing wild with my hydraulic camshaft.

I drive it about 2000miles a year, from april-october and only on weekends, it's a 90% cruiser, 10% race car. I went to the 1/4 track last year where everyone was racing their cars when cold because of fuel-vapor problems (and I was happy to have so thin oil!!) and I would like to go to a racetrack next year where I REALLY think I will get a much hotter oil! I got no oil cooler installed since I never saw a need for it...

But now I heard often that this 5W30 just got no film strength compaired to a 20W50 or 10W60... if reading AEHaas his text I would think that a thinner oil should be better since it flows better AS long as my HV oil pump can keep the pressure up right? Will I have to switch to a thicker oil when I see my oil temp rise over 212F or when do you say you need a thicker oil?

thank you

 

[bruce381]

other than looking at rod or main bearings or valve lifters
you must do a Used oil test to SEE any wear metals if they are "normal" then your current oil is OK if not then you can try diferent opils or vis grades BUT DO NOT just change oil vis cuase some guy at the track says so, if your oil now used works good then why listen to some "guy"
bruce

 

[6o4o]

talking about this, I put my the last time I changed oil (I removed the engine from the car and probably won't reuse it till next year) in a can and closed it about 6 month ago.. can I still send this probe for testing or won't it be accurate anymore after sitting so long in a can?

 

[Tempest]

Can is probably contaminated. I wouldn't trust the results.

 

[Merkava_4]

I'm thinking since Terry is recommending a straight 30 grade for a good baseline oil to start with, how about some SAE30 Chevron Delo?

 

[G-MAN]

Quote:

---

I'm thinking since Terry is recommending a straight 30 grade for a good baseline oil to start with, how about some SAE30 Chevron Delo?

---

I don't think Terry meant a straight 30. I can see how what he said could be interpreted that way, but I don't think that's what he meant.

 

[Terry]

6o4o, follow the recommendation from many of us to get an internal look before changing anything in your setup. Since it is mostly a driver and not pure race car the vis values I was mentioning are not so critical, in ANY CASE YOU NEED DATA as bruce indicates to decide not ____ ( no matter how well intentioned. Obviously Kendall which is a blend made by Conoco phillps is not allowing the engine to crater but it may or may not be wearing needlessly for a host of reasons.

If the container is surgically clean then get a sample out of it and let the lab know how long it was stored. If it was open or contaminated forgetaboutit. Get at least a 500 mile sample to me and I can tell you what you need to know from the current oil. We ship our Premium kits all over the world or you can send a sample from your location directly to the lab. Contact me if needed. Our charge is usually lower than the local labs would do it for and much more accurate and broad testing protocols.

Merkava, no offense but please don't assume anything I write about. I meant vis at 100C not necessarily a straight weight, that would suck for him in colder higher altitude Switzerland if he used a conventional on a cold morning crank. I don't type so well anymore nor do I think as well as I used too!

I get to Zurich periodically and if I can, in the future I would be happy to personally check out the hotrod if you will buy me a Hurlimann Beer! Spelling may not be right but I like the beer.

TD

 

[Merkava_4]

Quote:

---

Merkava, no offense but please don't assume anything I write about

---

No offence taken sir. I was actually quite surprised that the you would write SAE30, but I just went along with it as a faithful subservient.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

What brands and viscosity's are avaliable in Switzerland?


I have 2 440's, 2 400's and a 318. I run Amsoil 30wt...no pun intended Terry

it's the Diesel oil. And now in the motorhome I am trying Valvolines Synthetic 20w50w offering that was 99cents a month or so back!

 

[Terry]

The Amsoil 30/10w30 is a great PAO oil! Good choice until you cheaped out Large! Seriously Valvo GRP III is doing a good job too.

Merk, I am ALWAYS "at YOUR service" !

 

[farrarfan1]

Quote:

---

Seriously Valvo GRP III is doing a good job too.

---

Nice to see you say that since I just purchased 15 qts of Synpower 5W30 thanks to the $17.99 deal at Autozone. Now back to being an all Valvoline guy...

 

[6o4o]

oh well, there are many brands out there over here, Valvoline, Castrol, Mobil1 (but I think it's different than the US one), Kendall/Midland (the one I get) etc. But redline, amsoil and all those oil are not available here...

I will try to send a probe to Dyson and check how this Kendal 5W30 is.. alhtough I always put 1/4 of bottle of GM E.O.S.... I couldn't help myself with the ZDDP thing...

I put it in a empty and with water cleaned Vitamin C box. So if it's contaminated then with some sugar and vitamin C

And I have kept it closed since then...

I just can't think how to put a thicker oil in that engine if I get already so high & healthy oil pressures at 5W30 and never got over 100C? (212F)

 

[LargeCarManX2]

6o4o, I really think your fine with your set-up....you may try a 10w40w some day in the future. I run a thirty weight in my LargeCarMuscle Engines until they get tired they go up the scale in weight....30,40,50 etc. Shoot Terry a sample and know where your at. If you are on Moparts website...I am smallblockman...and your car is awesome.

 

[SargeGTO]

I run 600 HP in the 04 GTO with 10-30 Pennzoil Platinum....I would take Dyson up on his offer for sure.....and not worry about film strength of a 30 weight at all in your muscle car man....