LS1 Camaro and Auto RX

[TTopJohn]

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0w30 is bad juju for GM motors IMO...

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I haven't seen any UOAs that indicate German Castrol 0w30 is "bad juju" for LSX motors. For one thing, they seem to do okay on M1 5w30 which is thinner than GC. For another, the bad UOAs discussed in this thread are for one LS1 that's been "rebuilt by GM" and another that is a performance "built" motor. The rebuilt nature of these 2 motors introduces many unknowns as to how these engines were rebuilt and what parts were used. There is the possiblity that the "rebuilt by GM" motor was actually rebuilt by a dealership tech who didn't do it to the same high standards as the factory. And the performance "built" motor could have been rebuilt with looser tollerances in search of performance, which could affect UOAs v a nice tight stock factory LSX engine.

In summary - i think the bad UOAs on Chris B.'s car are more likely due to the fact that the LS1 was "rebuilt by GM" than to any problem with GC in an LS1.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to pick up an oil filter and switch my 130K mile M1-5w30-changed-every-3000 LS1 over to GC

 

[427Z06]

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OK I guess since the LS1 forums are chomping at the bit and my PM inbox here is full, I'll point out the obvious for you 427Z06.
I guess you gave up on slamming my recommendation of the XX-40 weight after #@$%! near everybody called you out as wrong as #@$%!. You sorta let that slide.

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Not at all...I haven't seen you proven anything yet. May I suggest you reread the thread as far as recommendations too.

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But your insentance of posting "links" to proove your side of the discussion and your A1 detective work just opened you up man.

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Opened up to what? The truth? Or is this a veiled threat?

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Hendricks/Hendrix/Henricks whatever. I gave you the contact info to verify. Get it? Who were you talking to 427Z06? Me maybe?

My partner maybe? So what do you do? Run back to your PC and type away that you have no uncovered a big conspiracy and this is actual fact and I 427Z06 am right and SargeGTO is wrong.

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So your knowledge is perfect except when it comes to your engine build...then...oh...it's just a typo.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...4541#Post804541

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One PM I got I gotta share with your flatheaded butt. " Just ignore him. He doesnt even have a Z06 and he is a blowhard" that pretty much sums up what a boatload of your fellow BITOG members think of your "post" and your rep there stud. Put your waders on for sure there sunshine. You need em

It was fun anyway. And anytimne you wish to go head to head with me on any forum concerning engines/oil/chassis setups anything. Fire away. Henricks/Hendricks/Hendrix LOL. What a dorfus.

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Whatever Sarge. Just remember, you can fool some of the people all the time...but you can't fool all the people all the time.

 

[WishIhadatruck]

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So if I went with Rotella T Syn 5w40 should I just dump the current GC in my engine and pour in the Rotella or would a Auto RX cycle help the switch?

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I still think the Auto RX cycle would be a waste of time but it wouldn't hurt anything. I'd just try the Rotella and do a UOA to see how it is. I'd try it at least twice before changing to something else however. Sometimes the 1st run does not give the best results. By the end of the 2nd run you should see good results if you have the "right" oil. If you're still not happy try a more expensive (or just different) 5W-40 perhaps. I would think you have enough miles on by now after the rebuild that you shouldn't be seeing much in the way of break in residual.

I currently have GC in a '96 LT1 motor and plan to do my 1st UOA soon. If I'm not happy I'll be following the same path as you and try a thicker oil such as the Rotella.

 

[KBFXDLI]

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0w30 is bad juju for GM motors IMO...

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I haven't seen any UOAs that indicate German Castrol 0w30 is "bad juju" for LSX motors.
In summary - i think the bad UOAs on Chris B.'s car are more likely due to the fact that the LS1 was "rebuilt by GM" than to any problem with GC in an LS1.

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Did Chris look on top of his engine? There is a black oil fill cap with 5w30 on there......maybe he just got some really bad advice.

 

[TTopJohn]

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Did Chris look on top of his engine? There is a black oil fill cap with 5w30 on there......maybe he just got some really bad advice.

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I don't follow you - are you saying it is "really bad advice" to run anything other than what the fill cap calls for? There are more comprehensive recommendations to be found in the owners manual and elsewhere.

e.g. some Corvette fill caps call for Mobil 1 and some BMW fill caps call for Castrol, but it's not "bad advice" to say that other brands of oil are perfectly acceptable in those engines. The fill cap is not the alpha and the omega of oil specifications.

This is the first time I have noticed your signature - I think I'll stop with this post since it looks like you have some irrational bias against GC - as if the country of orgin has any bearing on what kind of oil an engine should use.

 

[dailydriver]

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Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to pick up an oil filter and switch my 130K mile M1-5w30-changed-every-3000 LS1 over to GC

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Consider yourself lucky that you can find it (GC) AT ALL, in your area!! Make sure that filter is at least a Wix (uh-oh, now I've gone and done it!

).

Sarge & 427; I know it's cliched, burnt out, overused, etc., but "can't we all just get along?". It pains me to see ANY LSx people warring on here (of ALL places to NOT battle each other). Don't we have enough of a conflict holding off the importee hoards storming our gates??

I have not had a chance to review the VOAs. How does the Delvac 5W-40 compare to the Rotella stuff? Is that another lower cost, non "boutique" option for Chris?

 

[TTopJohn]

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Consider yourself lucky that you can find it (GC) AT ALL, in your area!! Make sure that filter is at least a Wix (uh-oh, now I've gone and done it!

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I've got a little stockpile of GC Green - I stashed it away after some trips to inner city AutoZones where the typical customer probably isn't on the 'net learning about boutique oils

The gold is readily avaiable at the local AutoZones whenever I run out of green. I like the AC Delco oil filters, personally.

 

[Gary Allan]

The Pb is sure up with the 0w-30 ...does seem to be a radical drop. But it just doesn't flush on a rational basis. If the visc was too low for 0w-30 for that much Pb issue ...then it would have been still somewhat of an issue for Rotella 15w-40. The two viscs aren't that far apart that they span that radical difference in high temp visc. They converge as things get hotter ..not spread apart.

That is, for the visc to be responsible ..you sorta have to be assuming that you're heating the oil to some radical temperature that reduced the visc to the point of bearing wear ..fine. This would also SURELY include some operational conditions that would also do that for the 15w-40 as well. Hence I would expect to drop from 80+ ppm of Pb ..to ..maybe 45 or 60 ..but NOT 2. That's the difference between a pebble being sucked in and "none". I've never seen something that radical in ppm "disappear" in one UOA ..there are always residual effects ..even if the condition causing them is eliminated.

See what I'm saying here??

Now if you did 15 1/4 mile runs with the 0w-30 and read the results ..and the owner said "Hey, I'm scared, I'll wait to see what the UOA shows before I hammer it again." ..then that give a reason for that much better a UOA back to back with one that is so lame in Pb.

That is, the operational conditions over the UOA were just as radically different

 

[AndyH]

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I've been enjoying this thread.
Sort of off-topic but Pennzoil Platinum 5W-40 was mentioned. Where was it bought from? Someone said they got it a quickie lube Pennzoil place.

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I do recall at least one person purchasing some from a Pennzoil quick-lube place. Some other folks found it at a local auto parts store (IIRC) and I think I remember reading about one guy buying some from a local lubrication distributor. There is also this online place that sells a 6-quart case for $25.69:
http://oilstore.stores.yahoo.net/pesy5weufoca.html

 

[JAG]

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I do recall at least one person purchasing some from a Pennzoil quick-lube place. Some other folks found it at a local auto parts store (IIRC) and I think I remember reading about one guy buying some from a local lubrication distributor. There is also this online place that sells a 6-quart case for $25.69:
http://oilstore.stores.yahoo.net/pesy5weufoca.html

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Thanks so much Andy! Even with shipping, that's an awesome price. For me in VA, it's ~$33 for 6 quarts...cheaper than most synthetics at parts stores.

Gary, I agree with what you said.

 

[buster]

I bet the PP 5w-40 is a great choice for the LSx engines.

 

[dave1251]

If you have an hard time finding 5W-40 PP. Contact your local shell distrubtor. And ask for Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40.
Same stuff.

 

[427Z06]

Good post Gary. It's good to see rational thought return and begin to replace cult of personality.

 

[buster]

It's hard to narrow down the right viscosity bc you're dealing with a lot of variables that change ex. - ambient temps, oil temps, engine design, track use etc. For short trips, in cold weather, I'd use a 0w-30 in a LS1 over a xw-40. For track use, if fuel dilution was a problem or the oil temps and ambient air temp was high, I'd use a thicker oil as well. This is often why racing oils "used" to be of higher viscosity. HT/HS is important as well.

No one engine is made to run strictly one viscosity oil that I'm aware of. With that said, the LSx series of engines can/do run various wt oils depending on all the factors I mentioned above. Tear downs and oil analysis can guide you to pin point specifically what viscosity is best for your engine. Sarge has done that and from his own inspections and UOA's has concluded that a 40wt would be a better choice.

 

[sprintman]

If PP 5W40 is PAO then it's not Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 which is or was Group III.

 

[SargeGTO]

On the subject of where to get the PP 5-40. Out local NAPA ordered it for us.

 

[Gary Allan]

Sarge. What fuel do you run in that engine that had the Pb issue. Was it the same for both runs of oil? The reason that I'm still perseverating on it is that all the other stuff is nearly or closely the same. Only the PB is altered. Even in my "scared owner" scenario, the Pb would never go from 80 to 2 ..it would taper off as the scarred bearing shell leached Pb until a new layer of AW kicked out all the butt crusties that were hanging on.

Now OTOH, if you went from some leaded fuel or some leaded fuel octane booster to another fuel type that was lead free ..then 80 ppm for that type of mileage would be possible without residual Pb in the next OCI ..at least so I reason.

 

[SargeGTO]

Hey Gary, same fuel ...Chevron 93 Octane...Blackstone does our UOA's..we suspected the "butt crusties" you mentioned.
It remained very low going forward with a variety of 40 weights and has never seen higher than the 2 you see...

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I wouldn't expect you to do another run with 0w-30 just to see ..there's no real point to it other then to verify the causal relationship. I doubt in that type of service/usage that there's too much of a disadvantage to using 15w-40 ..at least one you could measure beyond dyno variance (I don't know).

Not to be too anal here ..but I'd have a hard time just saying that the visc was the cause here. That is, if I was into researching it and closing the doors on coincidental apparent cause:effect relationships. But I have to admit that I would not expect anyone with that type of investment in terms of $$$ to bother with any "what if"s. in terms of conclusive proof. You just eliminate the possibility and keep moving on.

I would (meaning me .myself), however, attempt to resist stating it in a way that might imply "fact"...if you see what I mean

What you've got here (meaning BITOG), and I'm surely included, is a few people that have "eyezgotztwonoz" syndrome. If there's an escape hatch for the reason for an event to occur ..and it hasn't been explored ..then it's not "proof" ...it just "suggests" that there may be a relationship.

There have been endless battles over viscosity here on BITOG. Plenty of them. There's a real tendency for many to seek solutions with viscosity and to find fault with lack of it. The habit is so prevalent that often some end up appearing like "anti-high viscosity" advocates ..simply to put a balance to it.

Thanks for eliminating the fuel thing as a possible source.

 

[Terry]

The ideal LS1/x engine design does not require nor do 99% of my LS ( modded or not) customers run lubricants that would test >12.5cSt @100C. Those that do needlessly waste HP,economy ( for a street machine), the benefit of additional cooling from the lower vis, and plenty of wear protection. The idea that 0w vs 5w or 10w or 15w directly impacts adherance or betterfilm strength or surfactancy is total baloney. ( I think that was mentioned on a Ford 5.0 post in another thread). Molecular structure, polar attraction,additives being activated would change some attributes of operation. i.e. Auto-RX can improve ring seal if it cleans them first. RX might help film strength and ring sealing but the level would need to be experimented with. Based on the data here the engine is clean internally.

The engine that is the focus of this thread is problematic and indeed a build execution issue. Aside from rebuilding again maybe a heavier oil will lower piston rocking in the bore and the resultant blowby that is intermittant and mixed in with intermittant fuel dilute. Using GC0w30 and LC is exactly what I would recommend 7 months ago. If the customer was unhappy with that regimen and communicated with me directly I could now recommend the CJ4 Rotella 10w30,LC to control blowby if still an issue, Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 for sure.... MAYBE even Platinum 5w40 but analysis would consider that needless until it shears into 12.** cSt! No need for LC with Platinum initially because of low oxidation rates inherent in the Platinum chemistry.

Amsoil ACD might help with a poor engine build too. And there are many LS1 engines out there that fit the description.


My advice seems to be in direct conflict with internet rumors and advice to the contrary. I haven't changed in spite of that until testing of each analysis of each unit I work would show differently. Hey if 20w-50 or 15w40 was optimum it would be recommended, we want the best for our customers! We care about what works.

Shell Rotella T 15w40 CI4 does not nor did it contain 3000ppm of Magnesium. SGT you would do better to try Shell Rotella T 10w30 CJ4, warm it carefully before racing though. Have we ever done work for your racing program?

There is always more to properly interpreted oil analysis than spread sheets of the raw data with no detailed input on hundreds of variables that affected that result.

SGT, I would welcome the opportunity to provide the needed service for your racing efforts!