Any UOAs from an OCI with a filter tear?

[paulri]

We occasionally see pics here of filters that have torn or otherwise failed. I do like to see them, not sure why. Kind of like rubbernecking, but it doesn't slow traffic down any.

Anyways, I always wonder---have folks done UOAs from these OCIs when they see the filter has torn? I'd love to see what a filter failure (a tear, or anything else that might go wrong) does to the wear metals on a UOA.

 

[bullwinkle]

I would second that-but PARTICLE COUNT is what I'd like to see!

 

[SpencerHSS]

You would think someone has one sitting around for a lawsuit or case against the filter company.

There's this from a while back I remember seeing:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1179476&fpart=1

 

[Sayjac]

AFAIK and have observed, of the UAO's posted with filters noted with tears, there has been nothing remarkable shown by the UOAs. Also Blackstone has said that at least as far as insolubles, that generally they see no significant differences in results with any filter in their testing.

As strict disclaimer, no conclusions drawn here, simply a direct answer to the topic query.

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: SpencerHSS
You would think someone has one sitting around for a lawsuit or case against the filter company.

There's this from a while back I remember seeing:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1179476&fpart=1


Thanks for digging that up. On page 2, the OP says that the Blackstone UOA says that wear metals were normal.

 

[paulri]

I should have recalled an earlier thread by Bob (of BITOG fame) who showed a moderate increase in wear metals on a UOA when he took off the filter and ran his oil without one. So if removing the entire filter would not give you that much more wear, then keeping it 50-80% functional should give your car an even better UOA.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I thought it's been said many times that a normal UOA can't really tell how well the oil filter is working or not. You need much more sophisticated particle analysis of the oil to determine the filter's effectiveness.

You might see a slight difference between a good filter and no filter at all as mentioned above, but differences between filters seems to not show up on basic UOAs.

Like discussed in this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/Amsoil_EA15K51_-_42,938_miles

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SpencerHSS
You would think someone has one sitting around for a lawsuit or case against the filter company.

There's this from a while back I remember seeing:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1179476&fpart=1


Takes a high level of delta-p across the filter to collapse a center tube and try to blow the ADBV out of place. A faulty bypass valve and/or a faulty oil pump pressure relief valve (which controls flow & pressure, and hence filer delat-p) could cause something like this. Guess the guy never did figure out what happened.

 

[kschachn]

I really can't see how you would observe a particle count difference unless the filter tear was huge. Since the filter is a multi-pass and the recycle rate through the filter is fairly high, what the tear is doing is reducing the efficiency by some amount. It doesn't mean the efficiency is zero unless none of the oil is going through the filter, therefore unless you just happen to catch the particles at an opportune moment (prior to being captured) then they will be trapped eventually. Just not as soon as they would have been had the tear been absent.

In the case that was mentioned where there is no filter that's entirely different. There the filter is 0% efficient at all particle sizes and no particles will ever be trapped. Given enough circulation the damaging particles will eventually go through an engine component where the damage potential is high. This may or may not happen with a filter that has at least a non-zero efficiency.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: SpencerHSS
You would think someone has one sitting around for a lawsuit or case against the filter company.

There's this from a while back I remember seeing:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1179476&fpart=1


How would you tell if the customer tore the filter media by accident or on purpose, rather than a filter flaw.

 

[Colt45ws]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4040077
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4030290

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4040077
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4030290


Thanks Colt45, I see in your thread, that you said there were a couple of things that might have given such a high iron level. So the poor wear results can't necessarily be pinned on torn pleats, can they?

 

[Colt45ws]

I wish'd I bought a Particle Count

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: paulri
So the poor wear results can't necessarily be pinned on torn pleats, can they?


I have yet to see anyone make that correlation.

 

[Shannow]

Yonks ago, we could never get the turbine bypass hydraulics system down to the requirements of the system manufacturer...the control system had a vibrating coil and a 0.001" orifice, blockage of which would be seriously problemaatic.

We ended up with a filter cart and a 5um filter cart to transfer oil into the system and it was OK.

BUT, what we later found was that the procurement group had found a new filter supplier who made the hydraulic system filters locally, and cheaper.

They actually closed the pleats by stapling them, so there were unjoined pleats for quite large distances and holes at the staples.

Always had analysis results with high numbers of quite large particles, which were eliminated with proper, "untorn" filters.

Some of the debris that we found in the filters was clearly "O" ring materials, and when the "O" rings started to collect debris, we had hydraulic cylinder wear.

 

[goodtimes]

How about putting a tear in a coffee filter and then seeing what happens to your coffee? That's just by gravity flow.

 

[paulri]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
How about putting a tear in a coffee filter and then seeing what happens to your coffee? That's just by gravity flow.

Of course there would be some impact of a filter tear, much like a tear in a coffee filter would allow grounds into your coffee. The problem with arguing from this analogy is that we aren't drinking engine oil immediately after it gets filtered.

I read (probably on here) that oil will typically get pumped through the filter 4 times a minute (or was that 4 times in a mile of driving?).

So are we talking about a particle moving 20 times through a filter, and then finally getting caught---compared to moving 22 or 23 times a filter, and then getting caught--in either case, causing the same amount of engine wear? Or are we looking at 95% of the oil is still getting pumped through the filter media, anyways, even if there is a tear... again, quite possibly little difference between a tear and no tear. I'm not suggesting that there is absolutely no difference---I'm just wondering if we have any evidence that our engines can tell the difference, so to speak.

 

[goodtimes]

The coffee could be put back through twenty times to see if it helps the coffee clear up. Don't think it will. It probably is a fluid dynamics question, and the little river of fast moving oil is propelling dense particles right out the tear, they aren't moving away from the stream so fast to vacation on the media. If the tear is large enough the differential pressure will be zero and all the oil should flow through the tear. Until the tear is small enough to equal the media resistance, all oil goes through the tear. Just in simple terms, I am not an expert. That doesn't mean the ideas are wrong. I think I was the one mainly who was yapping about oil flowing 4 times a minute through a filter, and with an untorn filter it should help efficiency. In defense of the low efficiency number filters out there everywhere.
Actually no I don't think our modern engines can tell a difference if there is a tear or not. They seem to run pretty clean, maybe there is no need for oil filters at all, just change oil once in a while and get a new car every 10-15 years. Then the scrap is sold to China and they send us back new stuff in all kinds of forms. Which is actually happening right now every day.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Which do you want in a filter - regardless if it's oil, air, fuel, etc. This is a pretty simple question.

1) Tears in the filter media

or

2) No tears in the filter media.

 

[SilverC6]

The coffee filter is a bad analogy.

The oil filter is seeing pressure over its entire media surface.

Oil will flow more easily at the tear but flow also occurs relatively easily across the rest of the filtration area.

Remember the media is designed to be very permeable with very little pressure required to push the oil through it.

The analysis of the flow at a filter tear can be examined as a problem in fluid mechanics. Using Darcy's Law, you can see the flow going through the tear with almost no head loss. At the same time, you an also calculate the flow that is occurring through the remaining intact media that possesses high hydraulic conductivity.

Here's a little tutorial on Darcy's Law,

https://www.interpore.org/reference_material/mgfc-course/mgfcdarcy.html

Granted a tear is not the best thing in the world. But you'll find its impact is insignificant as long as tears do not occur in 3 or 4 successive pleats to structurally fail the oil filter.