Total Quartz Ineo MC3 5W30

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I likely wouldn't try a 5w-40 non-synthetic, since it might be way too loaded with VIIs, if it existed in the first place. I wouldn't be hunting for a conventional 0w-20 or 0w-30 either for similar reasons, assuming they existed, either. The 5w-40 I use is, of course, synthetic, but I've also used 5w-30 conventional in the G37, PYB, as a matter of fact.

Now, do I believe what I wrote? Of course I do. A 5w-XX does work fine in most terrible conditions I come across here. There probably are some days where a 0w-XX would be preferable. But, a 5w-XX does fit most cold days here just fine. The odds of my G37 being outside, shut off, for twenty-four hours straight in -40 and me needing to jump in and start it unaided are slim to none. But, I'm certainly not going to run an SAE 30 for a third of the year and then switch to a 0w-30 for the other two thirds. I prefer to avoid seasonal oil changes and stick with something I can expect to do the job year round.

As for the F-150, the 10w-30 is a legacy of the rebuild; I had gotten some 10w-30 cheap for a couple shorter OCIs. I've hardly turned a wheel on the vehicle in the past many, many, many months, and it faced no winter duty, so the fill right now isn't an issue. I do have an oil pan heater for it if I were to be absolutely needing it on a day when 10w-30 was silly. I do have a stash of 5w-30 Defy waiting for its next two or three OCIs, along with a 5w-30 QSGB straggler.

In my little essay there, I wasn't saying much about conventional versus synthetic. I just prefer to be running an oil that I can use all year. And yes, for my applications, 0w-30, 5w-30, 0w-40, and 5w-40 would fit, and would be my preferred grades.

I would not want to compromise the 0w-XX or 5w-XX of whatever grade I was using, whatever that might be, by mixing, that's all. And, where I mentioned synthetic and Canadian Tire, I was merely pointing out Canadian Tire's marketing rhetoric, not arguing conventional over synthetic or vice versa. Canadian Tire conveniently ignores the fact that a 5w-30 conventional can be equally capable in the cold as a 5w-30 synthetic. Of course, a 0w-30 synthetic is going to have better MRV and CCS values than any 5w-30 conventional or synthetic. But, that's not what Canadian Tire is trying to say. They want you to buy the oil with the highest price tags.

I have used a lot of conventional over the years, and certainly will continue to do so. However, none of my point was really advocating one over the other.
 
Some 5W40 are advertised as part synthetic, Total Quartz 9000 (even if the wording is unclear), at least one of the Bardahl offering (forgot the name), maybe Shell HX7 too?
is it really an inconvenient? The three Above are amongts the cheapest 5W40 here.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
CATERHAM...Your post is worthless even arguing, as you are claiming my position holds "at the limits of pampabilit"...i.e. through "even marginally".

That, I have never claimed...it's always when an oil is in a reasonably pumpable range (i.e. my statements that they are all the same around freezing), and you well know it.

So again, you tell lies about my position rather than defending your own...

Is that something that they teach in insurance school ?

Or is that something you learned in your B$

I rarely comment on what you have to say. In fact I would totally ignore everything you have say if you didn't follow me around BITOG like a puppy with your harassing snide remarks.

And your statement "... it's always when an oil is in a reasonable pumpable range (i.e. my statements that they are all the same around freezing)" which is the temperature I gave my 20W-50 vs 0W-20 example.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow


RAOT is the time for oil to arrive at the last rocker arm on the engine...that's his cold start flow. FOPT is time to ful oil pressure.
Oil%20gallery%20fill%20and%20rocker%20time.jpg


That chart simply proves my point that the heavier the oil the longer it takes to prime the bearings and ultimately reaching the farthest lubrication point in an engine.

The lighter the oil the faster the flow and better the lubrication.
 
Originally Posted By: Popsy
Some 5W40 are advertised as part synthetic, Total Quartz 9000 (even if the wording is unclear), at least one of the Bardahl offering (forgot the name), maybe Shell HX7 too?
is it really an inconvenient? The three Above are amongts the cheapest 5W40 here.


That's probably a difference in Group III/III+ vs. 4/5 and what "synthetic" is defined as. It's sometimes listed as Synthetic Technology.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That chart simply proves my point that the heavier the oil the longer it takes to prime the bearings and ultimately reaching the farthest lubrication point in an engine.

The lighter the oil the faster the flow and better the lubrication.



...at the limits of pumpability...at 0C, there is no difference whatsoeveer between the SAE 30 and the 5W20.

While you claim (until the rest if us are blue in the face) that a high VI oil WILL have a difference at 0C and above.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
In fact I would totally ignore everything you have say if you didn't follow me around BITOG like a puppy with your harassing snide remarks.


I liken it more to a fireman...if you see a burning house, you'll probably find a fireman there at some point.

Some people actually believe your posits (and oil 101) are gospel, because it "feels" like how the world should operate.

I try to bring the science ("technical obfuscation" is your term for science) to the party to help stop them from losing their house.

Anyway, you totally ignored OVERKILL's excellent point on mixing (again, it's simply mixing, blenders know what they are doing)...I'm interested in how you refute that piece of logic.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Just to add to this, an oil that is predominantly PAO; that is, deriving its cold temperature performance from the base oil rather than PPD's, which was demonstrated in that graph that has been posted in the past adds yet another dimension to this discussion. A primarily PAO-based oil, which doesn't need or at the most may contain an extremely small amount of PPD's to manipulate the additive package cold temp performance, diluted with one that does (require a good slug of PPD's to meet its grade rating), what are the results of this? That's the unpredictability here. Yeah, if you blended the old PAO M1 0w-40 with M1 EP 0w-20, both of which were predominantly PAO, you'd likely retain the cold temp performance. Mix one that is mostly group III with one that isn't.... How's that PPD balance relative to the new base oil mix?

And this sort of plays into Pennzoil's statement here, as they are using GTL (Group III) and I'm not sure on the wax content in GTL, but if there is a requirement for PPD's depending on the viscosity of the base, if you are mixing heavier and lighter bases, the relative volumes of PPD's becomes potentially disproportionate, affecting the performance of the final product.

This is of course because oils are blends with all aspects of their performance accounted for. When you mix that fully formulated oil with another you are upsetting that chemistry and the results may be insignificant or they may not be. That's the gamble.


You also don't know how the oils are "put together"...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4120822/gonew/1/%22Waxy%22_oil_additives#UNREAD

e.g. some of the components used in blending an oil (that's what they manufacturers do) are themselves waxy in nature, and need the support of PPDs to keep the product viable.

Mixing them willy nilly with no understanding of the chemistry could mean that the blend is lacking in those areas.

Clearly what Pennzoil mean when they say that chemistry is unpredictable.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That chart simply proves my point that the heavier the oil the longer it takes to prime the bearings and ultimately reaching the farthest lubrication point in an engine.

The lighter the oil the faster the flow and better the lubrication.



...at the limits of pumpability...at 0C, there is no difference whatsoeveer between the SAE 30 and the 5W20.

While you claim (until the rest if us are blue in the face) that a high VI oil WILL have a difference at 0C and above.

Heck you can't even properly interpret your own chart!
There is no comparison at 30F of all three grades although we do know the 5W-20 has about half the FAOT oiling time at about 10F vs the 10W-30.
And of course these are undoubtedly dino oils. Since a high VI 0W-20 has as much as half to one third the viscosity at 32F (0C) of a typical 5W-20 dino, the oil supply time will be considerably reduced.
And when you make the comparison to a heavy A3/B4 5W-30 it should come as no surprise that BMW claims significantly reduced engine wear with their own 0W-20 vs 5W-30.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Heck you can't even properly interpret your own chart!
There is no comparison at 30F of all three grades although we do know the 5W-20 has about half the FAOT oiling time at about 10F vs the 10W-30.
And of course these are undoubtedly dino oils. Since a high VI 0W-20 has as much as half to one third the viscosity at 32F (0C) of a typical 5W-20 dino, the oil supply time will be considerably reduced.


The chart clearly shows that there's a mechanical aspect to the time it takes to get oil to the remote ends of the engines at "normal" temperatures...you could put water in there and not get it out the other end any earlier, as that's the mechanical limits of the engine, the oil pump volume and the size of the empty oil galleriess.

The reason that they don't show a 5W20 at 32 is that it's pointless...it will be the same.

Tell me how a 0W20 can possible overcome the time that it takes to move through the oil galleries over the SAE30 at 32F ?

When the galleries are full, and pressure is established, yes, the 30 will have a greater relief valve opening, but in spite of your protestations that this is gravely perlious, it means nothing.

Designers ALWAYS put in capacity margin to allow for wear and tear as things age.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And when you make the comparison to a heavy A3/B4 5W-30 it should come as no surprise that BMW claims significantly reduced engine wear with their own 0W-20 vs 5W-30.


BMW published a technical paper stating that ?

Sounds like just what I've been asking for for years, for you to actually PROVIDE some evidence (that's not an advertisement) to support your position.

Be a dear, and please link us up with it ?

If it's an SAE paper that you've bought, give us the number and a precis.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That antiquated grade has no business in your tight modern engine. Your oil pump will be deep in relief reducing oil flow and raising oil temp's. A bad idea that I know a Corvette race engineer would quickly dismiss.



To bad those very same Corvette Engineer's call for 15W50 for track use in the Owner's Manual of the C7 Corvette.
 
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Originally Posted By: Gene K
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

That antiquated grade has no business in your tight modern engine. Your oil pump will be deep in relief reducing oil flow and raising oil temp's. A bad idea that I know a Corvette race engineer would quickly dismiss.



To bad those very same Corvette Engineer's call for 15W50 for track use in the Owner's Manual of the C7 Corvette.

M1 15W-50 is way lighter than an antiquated dino 20W-50, not just on start-up but at normal operating temp's. I know I've run them both in my Europa.

The devil is in the details. No engineer worth his salt would council running the oil pump in relief at operating temperature. Yes you can see very high oil temp's at the track, hot enough to enter the operating range for a synthetic 50 grade oil. So for an owner of a primarily street drive car, the first question to ask would be what is the safe maximum oil temp' for the spec' 5W-30.

The OP in this thread saw maximum oil temp's at the track of only 223F. As you have pointed out yourself, the spec' oil is good for 260-270F. So the OP like most owners is going to have work the engine a whole lot harder before considering to run anything heavier.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The devil is in the details. No engineer worth his salt would council running the oil pump in relief at operating temperature.


Hands up everyone in the thread who IS an engineer ?

OK, every system that provides lubrication industrially, and every hydraulic system operates at maximum capacity with relief flow...Why ?

So that there is excess supply capacity which can be delivered as componentry wears, rather than starting to starve supply to some part of the machine.

You harp so much about relief flow...it's tiny, both in power contribution and oil temperature...like trying to heat your oil with a single low beam headlight...hold the throttle down, turn on your head lights, and feel the power difference...that's MULTIPLE times what operating with the oil pump in relief is doing to your engine power.
 
And hands up everyone who has some high performance engine experience that has actually optimized an oil's viscosity at the track?
How is this done? Some engineers/tuners like to to use a minimum and maximum oil pressure range at a given high rpm. Others a specific oil of known viscosity up to a certain maximum oil temp' while of course maintaining a certain minimum OP.
Running an oil heavier than necessary, even with the oil pump not in relief, will raise oil temp's under WOT conditions but very much so if the pump is in relief. I've had some track buddies drop their oil temp's as much as 20C by dumping a 50 or 60 grade in favour of a 30 grade.

The name of the game is to run an oil as light as possible, and just as heavy as necessary.
This maximizes engine cooling, minimizes wear and maximizes power.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

M1 15W-50 is way lighter than an antiquated dino 20W-50, not just on start-up but at normal operating temp's. I know I've run them both in my Europa.


The quintessential 20W-50 dino, Castrol GTX, is 18.09 cSt at 100C with a HTHS of 4.0(last time Castrol published real numbers). Mobil 15W-50 is 18 cSt at 100C with a HTHS of 4.5. I'm not seeing that as being "way lighter". Based on the HTHS viscosity, the M1 is astronomically ginormously thicker than GTX 20W-50 at operating temperatures.

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Running an oil heavier than necessary, even with the oil pump not in relief, will raise oil temp's under WOT conditions but very much so if the pump is in relief. I've had some track buddies drop their oil temp's as much as 20C by dumping a 50 or 60 grade in favour of a 30 grade.


Ahhhhh...

again, you display your lack of understanding of hydrodynamics. You reject the fact that heat is GENERATED in the bearings and piston skirts by viscosity and RPM, so are relating it ALL back to the flow of oil through the relief...I now grasp your position. It's humorously incorrect, but I get it.

Yes, thicker oil will generate more heat in the bearings and lubricated areas, through the shear across the oil film...but will still typically have a higher minimum oil film thickness (the detail of which you term "technical obfuscation")

You cannot use oil pressure and sump temperature to form any sort of opinion of what's going on in the big end...you just can't. You can't use it to determine or as a correlation to MOFT either.

And again, if you are relying on piston cooling squirters, lowering the pressure educes the flow through the nozzles...
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

M1 15W-50 is way lighter than an antiquated dino 20W-50, not just on start-up but at normal operating temp's. I know I've run them both in my Europa.


The quintessential 20W-50 dino, Castrol GTX, is 18.09 cSt at 100C with a HTHS of 4.0(last time Castrol published real numbers). Mobil 15W-50 is 18 cSt at 100C with a HTHS of 4.5. I'm not seeing that as being "way lighter". Based on the HTHS viscosity, the M1 is astronomically ginormously thicker than GTX 20W-50 at operating temperatures.

Ed

Actually the HTHSV of a typical 20W-50 is around 4.8cP.
And when I say it's way lighter that's based on actual oil pressure.
 
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