Louder start up cam noise on Delvac 1

[MARTNT]

Hi, I have recently put UK spec Mobil Delvac 1 5-40 into my VW T5 2.5PD and straight away I have noticed you get lifter rattle at first start for a few seconds now.
The cam and lifters were new a couple of months back and I get no start up noise when I was using the recommended VW oil for my engine 506.01 0w-30.

In comparison the VW 0w-30 has a Viscosity at 40 degs of 55mm2/s and the delvac has a viscosity at 40 degs of 102 mm2/s.

The engine does sound quieter after its been running on the Delvac 1 but I am concerned about its first start protection for the cam now.

Any views will be greatly appreciated.

 

[4wheeldog]

Why, after experiencing cam and lifter failure, would you use anything but the manufacturer required oil? Just asking.

 

[fdcg27]

Are you using a different oil filter from what you've used before?
If not, could be that you've gotten a bum one.
The D1 is much thicker than the oil you've used in the past, but I doubt you're seeing temperatures low enough to make this a factor.
Start-up noise can often be attributed to the oil filter used.
You might try changing that before dumping an oil that must have cost a pretty penny in the UK.
You should probably await responses from those whose knowledge of VW PD engines exceeds my level of zero, though.

 

[Falken]

I'm with 4wheel in asking, these are very oil sensitive engines. Don't cheap out Vdub guys. Really.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Why, after experiencing cam and lifter failure, would you use anything but the manufacturer required oil? Just asking.


Maybe having experienced cam and lifter failure using the recommended oil has him casting about for something better?
From what little I know of this design, the VW PD engines have some built-in problems that no oil is going to fix.

 

[MARTNT]

Thanks for the reply's guys.


I only switched to the Delvac 1 because of the good reviews and oil analysis guys were getting on there PD's compared to the VW 505.01 and 506.01 oils but from memory they were mainly 1.9's.

The VW T5 2.5L PD R5 engine and Toaureg 5L PD V10 engine are renowned for wearing cams, VW dropped the 5w-40 oil spec for these two engines and now only recommends the 0w-30,I wonder if this was because of the cam failures?.
I wonder if they think most of the wear is on cold startup and that's why they now only recommend the lighter grade 0w-30 now?

My VW T5 is 11 years old now and I have owned it for 7 years.
During my ownership VW Longlife 506.01 0w-30 oil has been used and changed every 10K, genuine filter also.

This is what my cam followers looked like at 120K:-

 

[fdcg27]

Wow!
I wonder why the one on the right looks so good?
Do these things actually get hot enough in service to turn the steel blue?
Looks like it.

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Wow!
I wonder why the one on the right looks so good?
Do these things actually get hot enough in service to turn the steel blue?
Looks like it.

The one on the right was the best one out of 10 and the other two were the worst.
I wonder if the blueing of the metal was caused by a metal treatment?.
I can't tell by looking at the new lifters as INA now coat there lifters in a black coating.

 

[Falken]

Volkswagen is a garbage manufacturer TBH.

If they have these types of engine problems why bother.

 

[Olas]

I guess the sensible advice would be to say you should use the dealer for all service work if it's under warranty,

If you plan to sell it in the foreseeable future just use something approved and let someone else deal with it, but if you want to keep it for a long time the proper belt&braces answer is a kit from DarksideDevelopments with a forged cam, INA followers and some other hardware

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/complete-camshaft-kit-for-vw-2-5-pd-tdi-engines.html

Then you'll be able to use pretty much anything (within reason). The images you posted look pretty similar to 1.9 lifters I've seen and they do what they do because they need more zinc - maybe a suitable platform to try Redline for a OCI and see if it's any quieter? It has the zddp necessary to negate having to buy the cam and lifter kit I linked..

HTH!

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: Olas
I guess the sensible advice would be to say you should use the dealer for all service work if it's under warranty,

If you plan to sell it in the foreseeable future just use something approved and let someone else deal with it, but if you want to keep it for a long time the proper belt&braces answer is a kit from DarksideDevelopments with a forged cam, INA followers and some other hardware

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/complete-camshaft-kit-for-vw-2-5-pd-tdi-engines.html

Then you'll be able to use pretty much anything (within reason)


My T5 is 11 years old now so no warranty and I have owned it for the last 7 years, I work on diesels every day at work so I change the oil in my T5 every 10K or sooner myself.

I fitted the same cam kit that Darkside sell 2.5 months ago (Estas/ GT Automotive steel cam and INA followers)but got it from another dealer LEC as Darkside are quite expensive.

I know its the same kit because Darkside even phoned Estas complaining why had they told me who else supplies the same kit.

http://www.lymmengineparts.co.uk/camshaft-kits/vw-transporter-touareg-2-5-tdi-pd-camshaft-kit



Also I change to Mobil Delvac 1 for the higher Zinc levels.

 

[m37charlie]

For what it is worth (admittedly not much):
1) are you sure the noise you hear is rattle from the cam followers?
2) analogies aren't worth much at all, but...the MB904/906 engine is a PD design and the Delvac 1 you are using has the top MB rating (228.5) for this engine. Of course 90x engines do not have the well-know cam follower issue that VWs have for some reason.
3) Delvac 1 has much higher Zn/P content (1490/1360 ppm vs ~900?/
Charlie

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
For what it is worth (admittedly not much):
1) are you sure the noise you hear is rattle from the cam followers?
2) analogies aren't worth much at all, but...the MB904/906 engine is a PD design and the Delvac 1 you are using has the top MB rating (228.5) for this engine. Of course 90x engines do not have the well-know cam follower issue that VWs have for some reason.
3) Delvac 1 has much higher Zn/P content (1490/1360 ppm vs ~900?/
Charlie
The MB904/906 engine probably has roller rockers for in/exh as well as injector, the VW PD's still use flat tappets on the in/exh and that's the ones that usually fail not the rollers on the injectors.

I am just about to send off a sample of the Delvac 1 for analysis so I will be able to see the exact add pack.

This is the add pack of my VW 506.01 after 10 months:-

Additives
B (Boron) mg/kg 5.1
Ba (Barium) mg/kg 0.2
Ca (Calcium) mg/kg 2583
Mg (Magnesium) mg/kg 107
P (Phosphorus) mg/kg 830
S (Sulphur) mg/kg 2629
Zn (Zinc) mg/kg 1016

 

[m37charlie]

Actually the MB904/906 uses flat tappets on the valves and they do not seem to be a failure issue. Of course the peak hp is at only 2200 rpm and it is governed under load at 2500.


Charlie

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Actually the MB904/906 uses flat tappets on the valves and they do not seem to be a failure issue. Of course the peak hp is at only 2200 rpm and it is governed under load at 2500.


Charlie

I think the main issue with the PD engine is the narrowing of the in/exh cam lobes to make room for the injector lobe in the middle.
If you look at this link you will see what I mean:-
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://g04.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1QQidHFXXXXXEaXXXq6xXFXXXO/Forged-Steel-Camshaft-for-VW-Touareg-T5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Forged-Steel-Camshaft-for-VW-Touareg_60223762648.html&h=563&w=1000&tbnid=NU7CmwKOgXF1KM:&q=t5+2.5+camshaft&docid=zXgQi7-yltP1kM&hl=en&ei=M3JIVtrvB4GksgHr4b6QBg&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCoQMygNMA1qFQoTCJrVsoSvkskCFQGSLAod67APYg

 

[SilverC6]

Have you changed the filter lately?

With what? OEM?

Castrol 10W-60 might be the prescription if the VW spec oil isn't cutting it.

 

[MARTNT]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Have you changed the filter lately?

With what? OEM?

Castrol 10W-60 might be the prescription if the VW spec oil isn't cutting it.

Fitted a new VW filter when I changed to Delvac 1 last month, the VW Quantum oils are actually made by Castrol.
The only reason I thought of changing to Delvac 1 was the extra Zinc and Phos content.

 

[m37charlie]

I don't guarantee this, but based on other VW PD owners' experiences with substituting 5W40 CI4 or CJ4 truck oils for the VW oil, your experience with the Delvac will be good. I'll be very interested in seeing the oil analysis on the Delvac, the data I have is for the CH4 version. I have posted VOA data on Bitog for Delvac 1 SHC 5W40; this has ~same Zn/P as your version but super high detergency for ultra long OCI and/or high sulfur fuel.
Re Silver6' post, a 10W60 oil won't help with startup clatter vs a 5W40. It undoubtedly has a higher viscosity at typical UK winter temps like +5C.
One other option: you could add a very small quantity of Redline Breakin Additive to the OEM oil, 1/4 to 1/3 of a 16 oz. bottle at most to 4-5L sump. Enough to increase phosphorus from 800 to 14-1500 ppm. This additive has 20000 ppm Ca (detergent - increases TBN), 17500 ppm P, 20000 ppm Zn.

Charlie

 

[Chuckh]

I am not sure if I am in the right place with this. Is Redline oil OK for a car with a catalytic converter? I was thinking of using either 5w40 or 0w40. I have read good things about it but I don't really want to ruin my catalytic converter if this oil would. I have an 06 Jetta 2.5 with 130,000 miles. I got the Redline D4 for the transmission anyhow since there is no risk to the cat there.

 

[Garak]

Technically, phosphorus is always a risk. Cats blow on low phosphorus oils. If you're not consuming oil, it's not going to be much of a concern. If you're burning a bunch, you're going to have trouble sooner or later, regardless of oil choice.