Quaker State Defy - now API SN resource conserving
- Thread starter 901Memphis
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Almost all manufactures have said HM oil is just fine in new cars. Valvoline Maxlife is one example, and it has Dexos approval. Until you can back up anything you said with real facts I call [censored] to everything you posted.
I am vastly out-numbered on this authoritative bitog info resource!
Therefore, I need to concede that HM oils do not swell any seals any more than normal non-HM oils do.
Also, I need to concede that non-HM normal oils have complete dummies formulating them at the oil companies since they don't already know how much seal swell chemicals to put in Pennzoil Yellow, Valvoline White, Mobil Super, Mobil1 0w-40, etc.
Reality would suggest that it might not harm a newer engine to get the extra powerful dose of seal swelling agents in most cases. Its just not needed in new vehicles, and extra swelling can be harmful.
Almost all manufactures have said HM oil is just fine in new cars. Valvoline Maxlife is one example, and it has Dexos approval. Until you can back up anything you said with real facts I call [censored] to everything you posted.
I am vastly out-numbered on this authoritative bitog info resource!
Therefore, I need to concede that HM oils do not swell any seals any more than normal non-HM oils do.
Also, I need to concede that non-HM normal oils have complete dummies formulating them at the oil companies since they don't already know how much seal swell chemicals to put in Pennzoil Yellow, Valvoline White, Mobil Super, Mobil1 0w-40, etc.
Reality would suggest that it might not harm a newer engine to get the extra powerful dose of seal swelling agents in most cases. Its just not needed in new vehicles, and extra swelling can be harmful.
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Therefore, I need to concede that HM oils do not swell any seals any more than normal non-HM oils do.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that would apply for all HM oils, but the vast majority are now SN/GF-5, so their seal compatibility will be within specifications.
Originally Posted By: ExMachine
Its just not needed in new vehicles, and extra swelling can be harmful.
Assuming that said new engine calls for an SN/GF-5 lube, how would using an SN/GF-5 lube in the correct viscosity be harmful? I'm sure one of the formulators here could tell us the real difference between supposedly enhanced levels of seal conditioners and/or swellers and "normal" levels, if there is such a difference at all.
On the other hand, the SOPUS marketing people here have a few hard questions from me to answer over the past week or so, and they've simply skated past them. If all Defy is going to become SN/GF-5 (and I hope that's not the case), then they really need to admit that Defy was a failed experiment and just call the product Quaker State synthetic blend, since it's really doesn't have enhanced AW levels and it's not specifically for high mileage vehicles, despite the labeling.
Therefore, I need to concede that HM oils do not swell any seals any more than normal non-HM oils do.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that would apply for all HM oils, but the vast majority are now SN/GF-5, so their seal compatibility will be within specifications.
Originally Posted By: ExMachine
Its just not needed in new vehicles, and extra swelling can be harmful.
Assuming that said new engine calls for an SN/GF-5 lube, how would using an SN/GF-5 lube in the correct viscosity be harmful? I'm sure one of the formulators here could tell us the real difference between supposedly enhanced levels of seal conditioners and/or swellers and "normal" levels, if there is such a difference at all.
On the other hand, the SOPUS marketing people here have a few hard questions from me to answer over the past week or so, and they've simply skated past them. If all Defy is going to become SN/GF-5 (and I hope that's not the case), then they really need to admit that Defy was a failed experiment and just call the product Quaker State synthetic blend, since it's really doesn't have enhanced AW levels and it's not specifically for high mileage vehicles, despite the labeling.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Garak
On the other hand, the SOPUS marketing people here have a few hard questions from me to answer over the past week or so, and they've simply skated past them. If all Defy is going to become SN/GF-5 (and I hope that's not the case), then they really need to admit that Defy was a failed experiment and just call the product Quaker State synthetic blend, since it's really doesn't have enhanced AW levels and it's not specifically for high mileage vehicles, despite the labeling.
Assuming only the 5W-20 gets the GF-5 treatment, my guess is that most HM users arent going to go with a xw20 so this would be a way to expand the red bottle's mkt share. Now, if this change is across the board, I'm in complete agreement with you and KCJeep. I don't remember what Havoline's specs are, but they may be the last bastion.
On the other hand, the SOPUS marketing people here have a few hard questions from me to answer over the past week or so, and they've simply skated past them. If all Defy is going to become SN/GF-5 (and I hope that's not the case), then they really need to admit that Defy was a failed experiment and just call the product Quaker State synthetic blend, since it's really doesn't have enhanced AW levels and it's not specifically for high mileage vehicles, despite the labeling.
Assuming only the 5W-20 gets the GF-5 treatment, my guess is that most HM users arent going to go with a xw20 so this would be a way to expand the red bottle's mkt share. Now, if this change is across the board, I'm in complete agreement with you and KCJeep. I don't remember what Havoline's specs are, but they may be the last bastion.
I sure as heck hope that's the case. Obviously, I'm not going to be hunting down Defy 5w-20 for my F-150, nor would a guy in something older with flat tappets. The only thing that concerns me about other options are that VR-1 is no lighter than 10w-30 and RP HPS is too expensive.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
I hear you. It puts you and others in a bind.
All HM oils should stick to what they do best. There is no shortage of SN/GF-5 oils, particularly from SOPUS. If the HM oil doesn't have a bit of a different additive package and a higher HTHS within the grade, then they've really lost the plot, and "High Mileage" has become marketing speak, even more than "synthetic."
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Garak
"High Mileage" has become marketing speak, even more than "synthetic."
With a touch more seal conditioners
"High Mileage" has become marketing speak, even more than "synthetic."
With a touch more seal conditioners
I really hope they leave 10W-30 and 10W-40 alone. Honestly, a 5W-20 HM oil is pointless, but at least the original Defy was a thick 20. If they reduce the ZDDP in the thicker grades, I can live with that, because no doubt they'll substitute in more Boron and Moly. They really should allow the thicker two grades to still be non resource conserving. Of course, 10W-40 is automatically non RC, so hopefully they don't drop it altogether.
I never understood a HM 5w20 either, why not just run a 5w30 then? But I guess marketing knows that some buyers just will not deviate from the grade their manual specs.
I don't care what they do to the 5w20, but having a higher zinc thick for grade 5w30 and 10w30 PCMO was mighty nice. Though I usually run Pennzoil if it wasn't available it would be the Defy, as it is now anyway. I've run Defy before, liked it plenty and would run it again in a heart beat.
I don't care what they do to the 5w20, but having a higher zinc thick for grade 5w30 and 10w30 PCMO was mighty nice. Though I usually run Pennzoil if it wasn't available it would be the Defy, as it is now anyway. I've run Defy before, liked it plenty and would run it again in a heart beat.
How different could 5W30 and 10W30 CJ-4/SN be, than the marketing
term high mileage in those two grades?
It seems to me that with the HDMO, at least you know what you are getting.
term high mileage in those two grades?
It seems to me that with the HDMO, at least you know what you are getting.
Last edited by a moderator:
KC, the higher ZDDP levels are nice. I hope they don't change the 10W-40, or worse, discontinue it. I posted awhile back that I'd seen new packaging, and was afraid they were doing this. I have no doubt that this new Defy will be a good product, I just don't understand the point of it. Perhaps it will sell better. Too early in the running to tell anything.
Unfortunately the 10w40 Defy is already getting hard to find. Not a good sign IMO.
Originally Posted By: used_0il
How different could 5W30 and 10W30 CJ-4/SN be, than the marketing term high mileage in those two grades?
Agreed. It's just that a conventional with a decent amount of ZDDP is difficult to find. Then again, if QS wants to play with Defy, I can get Delvac Elite 222 0w-30 at the same everyday price (or cheaper) and have more phosphorous and a higher HTHS and better cold cranking numbers than any ILSAC rated high mileage oil.
After all, Shell wouldn't want me to use Rotella in a gasser, so their own 0w-30 is out of the question.
How different could 5W30 and 10W30 CJ-4/SN be, than the marketing term high mileage in those two grades?
Agreed. It's just that a conventional with a decent amount of ZDDP is difficult to find. Then again, if QS wants to play with Defy, I can get Delvac Elite 222 0w-30 at the same everyday price (or cheaper) and have more phosphorous and a higher HTHS and better cold cranking numbers than any ILSAC rated high mileage oil.
After all, Shell wouldn't want me to use Rotella in a gasser, so their own 0w-30 is out of the question.
If we take that logic one more step,
how different could 15W40 CJ-4/SN be
from the "high mileage extended life"
marketing term 10W40s?
It seems to me that with the HDMO,
you know what you are getting, you
can find it anywhere and on sale.
I bought a 20L pail of 15W40 Mobil 1300
for $55 Canadian at Cannuck Tire.
That was enough engine oil to do 2X 2013 matrix,
a 2013 5.3 GMC, the 2004 Montana dog's van
and a 8.75 190cc John Deere lawn mower.
how different could 15W40 CJ-4/SN be
from the "high mileage extended life"
marketing term 10W40s?
It seems to me that with the HDMO,
you know what you are getting, you
can find it anywhere and on sale.
I bought a 20L pail of 15W40 Mobil 1300
for $55 Canadian at Cannuck Tire.
That was enough engine oil to do 2X 2013 matrix,
a 2013 5.3 GMC, the 2004 Montana dog's van
and a 8.75 190cc John Deere lawn mower.
There are different kinds of ZDDP, so that might be one issue. Also, a 10w-40 could, potentially, have higher SA than an E7/E9 type lube. But that being said, I would, indeed, use a 15w-40 HDEO every time ahead of a 10w-40.
I ran Defy 5w30 in our Hyundai the past two OCIs. I have noticed Walmart is not replenishing their stock though in any of the grades. I'm thinking the brand is getting a complete overhaul and Walmart is waiting for the new stock to be sent. I get the feeling that the SL rating is going to be gone.
Last edited:
It could be a simple lack of consistency in their catalog system but if you go to http://www.epc.shell.com/ and search for Defy, you'll find that only the 5W-20 and 5W-30 are shown as (SL). The 10W-30 and 10W-40 versions are not shown as (SL). However, if you click on the current March 2012 TDS on Defy, it shows the 10W-30 to be (SL) and the 10W-40 to be (SN).
It's a stretch, but it makes me wonder if the new formulation will be reserved for the 5W-20 and 5W-30 versions only?
It's a stretch, but it makes me wonder if the new formulation will be reserved for the 5W-20 and 5W-30 versions only?
Unfortunately, the Shell website often has incorrect and seriously outdated data sheets. If those are the worst examples you've found, you're extremely lucky.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
