Quaker State Defy - now API SN resource conserving

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
New car market share? Its a High Mileage product.


High Mileage products can certainly be used in new cars, they contain extra detergents, seal conditioners and friction modifiers which can be beneficial to even non high mileage vehicles, sort of like preventative maintenance to use an oil with extra seal conditioners so they may never exhibit these things people see in older cars such as deposits, emissions problems, and poorer gas mileage.


Too much seal-swelling in new vehicles with this stuff. Older cars have older oxidized dry brittle seals due to age. Thats why this is a High Mileage product. Simple.



All motor oil already contains seal conditioners.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I could not agree more. We are awash in thin for grade resource conserving oils, yet the ongoing trend is to nueter what few hold outs remain.


Last time I looked, Castrol and Mobil oils in full syn, semi and conventional are all on the thicker side. Lots of choice I would say.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
All motor oil already contains seal conditioners.


High Mileage oils have more seal swellers than normal oil. New cars don't need more. Only old cars need a good belt of it. Thats the thinking behind this marketing, to get into older car engines that might just need it.

 

[wemay]

We'll just end up going in circles like so many other threads here. Let's just agree to disagree...

 

[bvance554]

What chemical or compound in oil is considered a seal sweller or conditioner?

 

[3311]

I hope it's just the 5w20 eco swill. I have 100k with defy 5w30 on my wife's Mazda and will switch it to M1 hm.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I could not agree more. We are awash in thin for grade resource conserving oils, yet the ongoing trend is to nueter what few hold outs remain.


Last time I looked, Castrol and Mobil oils in full syn, semi and conventional are all on the thicker side. Lots of choice I would say.


No not really, I don't think you consider thick what I do.

Maxlife is one prominent example of used to be thick for grade now it's not. I look at HTHS mostly. Castrol still publishes high kv100's for it's HM oil but it also converted to Resource Conserving so I'm not really sure how that is supposed to work.

Sure bet was Defy and Pennzoil HM now Defy may be gone, hope not. M1 HM is thick for grade but that's a whole 'nother price class. There are still HDEO's but can't use those in every vehicle.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I could not agree more. We are awash in thin for grade resource conserving oils, yet the ongoing trend is to nueter what few hold outs remain.

Yep, so now I'm in a quandary for my F-150 after I'm out of my current stock and SN/GF-5 stuff rolls into Canada. I'm not paying $30 a jug for an SN/GF-5 Defy (that's the regular price here, and I don't chase sales any longer, so PYB and QSGB have disqualified themselves, and SOPUS won't let the local distributor sell Pennzoil/Quaker State stuff). So, I can go to Formula Shell, with essentially the same additive package and an SN/GF-5 rating at half the price. Or, should I start using Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 or Delvac Elite 222 0w-30 in the F-150, at a significant cost savings to Defy? Or, if I for some reason am married to the idea of a HM in SN/GF-5, Imperial Oil can get me Mobil Super 2000 for next to nothing.

Come on, SOPUS marketing employees on BITOG. You like to answer the easy questions. How about trying a tough one?

Originally Posted By: Benito
Last time I looked, Castrol and Mobil oils in full syn, semi and conventional are all on the thicker side. Lots of choice I would say.

No, they're not, unless your talking about HDEO, GC, or M1 0w-40 or something else outside of the ILSAC regime. M1 5w-30's 3.2 HTHS is on the thicker side of nothing.

 

[53' Stude]

+1 Garak

 

[dlundblad]

I am a thicker oil/ HDEO fan for the 2 Jeeps, the A4 and the GF's turbo'd car, but that is about it. Everything else gets whatever quality oil I can find the cheapest. Lately being Castrol Synblend and M1.

It is nice to see a cheaper HM oil available for the 5w20 cars, but I sure hope they leave the 10w30/40 alone! If Pennzoil HM wasnt around, I'd go with the Defy.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: bvance554
What chemical or compound in oil is considered a seal sweller or conditioner?
Afton company says you can use adipate esters, although there are others.

Note "swelling" is when the seal expands, and "conditioning" is when it may or may not soften too. See the Afton chart below for adipate esters:

One can see that a newer engine seal is already soft enough and not yet shrunk with age, so you shouldn't apply extra chemical swellers to make the seal move around too much. With an older vehicle, chances are it might need some swelling/conditioning.

Thats why you really shouldn't use the High Mileage oils in engines that don't have ... er... high mileage. Its really that simple.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: bvance554
What chemical or compound in oil is considered a seal sweller or conditioner?
Afton company says you can use adipate esters, although there are others.

Note "swelling" is when the seal expands, and "conditioning" is when it may or may not soften too. See the Afton chart below for adipate esters:

One can see that a newer engine seal is already soft enough and not yet shrunk with age, so you shouldn't apply extra chemical swellers to make the seal move around too much. With an older vehicle, chances are it might need some swelling/conditioning.

Thats why you really shouldn't use the High Mileage oils in engines that don't have ... er... high mileage. Its really that simple.


According to a phone call I had with SOPUS, you can use HM oil at any mileage. Valvoline says you can use Maxlife whenever too. A seal that doesn't need conditioned simply wont get conditioned.

For technical purposes, just make sure you use the correct API certified oil for the engine.

 

[ExMachina]

dlundblad, Interesting concept. Tribologists & chemists for years have warned about using too much seal swellers in their formulas. I guess SOPUS and others make the claim it won't harm new engine seals thinking they still didn't over-do the amount of seal swellers in there to do damage. Its a problem if the seal starts moving laterally and out of place. Soaking in extra amounts of seal swellers means the seal wants to expand a few percent more (see Afton's chart above), and that expansion may or may not be harmful in reality.

I'd follow the advice seen in huge letters right on the front of the bottle that says "HIGH MILEAGE". Smart money is on that.

 

[dlundblad]

I have never seen such warnings. The guy at SOPUS told me if a seal doesn't need conditioned (is new, not shrinking etc.) the seal sweller additive wont do a thing.

High mileage is relative nowadays. Quite frankly, I dont even consider 75k to be high mileage. 375k on the other hand is IMO.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I have never seen such warnings. The guy at SOPUS told me if a seal doesn't need conditioned (is new, not shrinking etc.) the seal sweller additive wont do a thing.

Depends on the freedom of movement of the seal per its design. Generally, I don't think a little lateral movement will be a problem, thats right. Most of the time anyway. But why take they chance that your engine's seals will react badly to chemicals that make them enlarge more?

Whats happening is the extra swelling agents are soaked into the seal polymers, putting pressure on them to expand. They aren't smart, they just swell the seals.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
New car market share? Its a High Mileage product.


High Mileage products can certainly be used in new cars, they contain extra detergents, seal conditioners and friction modifiers which can be beneficial to even non high mileage vehicles, sort of like preventative maintenance to use an oil with extra seal conditioners so they may never exhibit these things people see in older cars such as deposits, emissions problems, and poorer gas mileage.


Correct.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I have never seen such warnings. The guy at SOPUS told me if a seal doesn't need conditioned (is new, not shrinking etc.) the seal sweller additive wont do a thing.

Depends on the freedom of movement of the seal per its design. Generally, I don't think a little lateral movement will be a problem, thats right. Most of the time anyway. But why take they chance that your engine's seals will react badly to chemicals that make them enlarge more?

Whats happening is the extra swelling agents are soaked into the seal polymers, putting pressure on them to expand. They aren't smart, they just swell the seals.


Almost all manufactures have said HM oil is just fine in new cars. Valvoline Maxlife is one example, and it has Dexos approval. Until you can back up anything you said with real facts I call [censored] to everything you posted.

 

[Hessam]

if you expose the seals in a newer engine to HM oil, will the seals swell up unnecessarily and explode?

 

[BikeWhisperer]

Originally Posted By: Hessam
if you expose the seals in a newer engine to HM oil, will the seals swell up unnecessarily and explode?



No...the seal conditioners will not damage new seals.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
Originally Posted By: Hessam
if you expose the seals in a newer engine to HM oil, will the seals swell up unnecessarily and explode?



No...the seal conditioners will not damage new seals.


And I'd bet being well conditioned from the get go they are less likely to have problems later on.