Battery terminal recommendations?
- Thread starter joel96
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
You're way over thinking this. Buy a new OEM cable assembly and hold down, make the repair and sleep well at night.
Plan C: buy an OEM cable. I'll go with plan C until I hear some responses to my previous questions. I mentioned in my previous post that the battery bracket, nut, and bolt are missing, and I'll need to buy those as well. I'm waiting to hear back from my local dealer to get the part number for the bolt (hyundaipartsdeals doesn't list it). Shipping to my zip code is $12.11 for the bracket, nut, and cable. I'm trying to buy a new bolt for each ground (there's four), a nut for the alternator positive cable end, and maybe replace the positive cap and nut (it's around $3).
Seems like there's a consensus in ranking Permatex highest in battery servicing fluids and grease. I'm going with Permatex 80370 as the protector; Permatex 80369 Battery Cleaner is the highest rated battery cleaner on Amazon--the battery isn't really corroded, it's the terminals that are rusty and corroded. I should probably buy battery cleaner for the semi-annual battery servicing, I don't think it's that necessary right now. Permatex dielectric grease is the highest rated dielectric grease on Amazon; they only have one type of dielectric grease; the product numbers are for size and quantity.
I don't have any tools of my own, and those that I can borrow don't have torque measurements (neither do any of the service manuals; I'm going to have to guess with all the bolts). I'd like to consolidate all the tools I need to as few and as effective as possible (wherever I end up living, storage space is going to be tight). I don't know the size of the nuts and bolts, and hyundaipartdeals doesn't list them. I'm going to borrow some sockets and figure it out by trial and error; for those spaces too tight to reach with a socket wrench, I'll use a crescent wrench (I'm going to avoid using pliers). The '03 Accent has maybe six inches of clearance under the engine compartment (barely enough for me to squeeze my head underneath to notice that one loose wire that apparently goes to nothing). I can borrow some jacks, but they're junk (I'd prefer not to experience a catastrophic jack failure underneath my car in exchange for saving a few hundred dollars on dealer repairs) and I need to get at least one jack of my own. gereral1 uses a scissor jack and wood shims to keep it level and blocked. I'll probably be able to access all of the bolts from above the engine compartment. I'm going to use nitrile gloves. I'll need something to sand the body with to get rid of any rust in between the lug rings and the body. I can borrow a dremel with a sander attachment, but I'll probably stick with sand paper sheets and a wire brush if I can find one. Pretty sure that's all I'm going to need--about $80 worth of stuff (not counting the jack and bracket bolt). I don't think I can get the dealer to be as thorough as this with all the sanding, cleaning, greasing, and sealing--I might still ask how much it would be to get the dealer to take care of the whole replacement job.
You're way over thinking this. Buy a new OEM cable assembly and hold down, make the repair and sleep well at night.
Plan C: buy an OEM cable. I'll go with plan C until I hear some responses to my previous questions. I mentioned in my previous post that the battery bracket, nut, and bolt are missing, and I'll need to buy those as well. I'm waiting to hear back from my local dealer to get the part number for the bolt (hyundaipartsdeals doesn't list it). Shipping to my zip code is $12.11 for the bracket, nut, and cable. I'm trying to buy a new bolt for each ground (there's four), a nut for the alternator positive cable end, and maybe replace the positive cap and nut (it's around $3).
Seems like there's a consensus in ranking Permatex highest in battery servicing fluids and grease. I'm going with Permatex 80370 as the protector; Permatex 80369 Battery Cleaner is the highest rated battery cleaner on Amazon--the battery isn't really corroded, it's the terminals that are rusty and corroded. I should probably buy battery cleaner for the semi-annual battery servicing, I don't think it's that necessary right now. Permatex dielectric grease is the highest rated dielectric grease on Amazon; they only have one type of dielectric grease; the product numbers are for size and quantity.
I don't have any tools of my own, and those that I can borrow don't have torque measurements (neither do any of the service manuals; I'm going to have to guess with all the bolts). I'd like to consolidate all the tools I need to as few and as effective as possible (wherever I end up living, storage space is going to be tight). I don't know the size of the nuts and bolts, and hyundaipartdeals doesn't list them. I'm going to borrow some sockets and figure it out by trial and error; for those spaces too tight to reach with a socket wrench, I'll use a crescent wrench (I'm going to avoid using pliers). The '03 Accent has maybe six inches of clearance under the engine compartment (barely enough for me to squeeze my head underneath to notice that one loose wire that apparently goes to nothing). I can borrow some jacks, but they're junk (I'd prefer not to experience a catastrophic jack failure underneath my car in exchange for saving a few hundred dollars on dealer repairs) and I need to get at least one jack of my own. gereral1 uses a scissor jack and wood shims to keep it level and blocked. I'll probably be able to access all of the bolts from above the engine compartment. I'm going to use nitrile gloves. I'll need something to sand the body with to get rid of any rust in between the lug rings and the body. I can borrow a dremel with a sander attachment, but I'll probably stick with sand paper sheets and a wire brush if I can find one. Pretty sure that's all I'm going to need--about $80 worth of stuff (not counting the jack and bracket bolt). I don't think I can get the dealer to be as thorough as this with all the sanding, cleaning, greasing, and sealing--I might still ask how much it would be to get the dealer to take care of the whole replacement job.
I went to the Hyundai dealer--they have no record of the battery bracket bolt part number. It's probably because the thread for the battery is on the battery bracket; I have the information I need for getting most of the parts for the fix now--it's still mostly guesswork for getting all the replacement bolts for the battery cables. I'm still shopping for jack stands and other supplies for the job--I don't have any tools and I've got to start from scratch. It's taking a long time because I'm trying not to buy junk and not break stuff in the process of fixing one thing.
Hi Joel
I have to admit, as an engineer I appreciate and respect the considerations and level of thought you are putting into your project.
That said, on the electrical side (load, impedance, connections etc.) I am unclear as to what exactly your goals, objectives or actual problem(s) are. You may in fact be overthinking this or possibly have a problem elsewhere.
Based on a few of your comments let me give you a bit of information and clarification to either help you in your quest or put your mind at ease.
Starter Rating- Just like every electrical motor made that figure they publish is what is known as the locked rotor current (in amps or Kw). Basically this is the maximum power requirement for a motor at zero state to energize 100% in order to turn 100% of its rated torque against the load equal to its torque value. In any motor ( this occurs almost in nano seconds and the average meter will not register or capture it) at zero state the first thing it does is fully energize due to the inrush current then tightens against the load then turns it. The actual run load (say the actual power to turn your engine) will probably be 3-5% of that number. Also the actual torque required for your individual engine will play a factor on the total amps required.
Starter motors are intermittent duty motors so there is no full load or running amp specification. DC motors are always the worse because they have a 100% full load flat wave on the sine where an AC motor has 2 points of zero potential.
They publish that number because all the electrical services must meet that power requirement + 25% (per NEC which is not really applicable in the automotive world)
The battery- The BCI publishes these specifications CCA (cold cranking amps) and CA (cranking amps) which are the full load a battery can deliver at 0 or 32 F respectively for 30 seconds while maintaining a cell voltage of 1.2 VDC and 7.2 VDC overall. It’s how batteries are ranked to the standard. (There are other ratings but don’t apply to your situation)
Conductors, connections and load- 2 things to remember, in a DC circuit electron flow( current) flows from negative to positive and the electrons flow on the OUTSIDE of the conductor. I point that out because the critical parameter for the conductor is overall surface contact and the diameter. The connection is the same but also should have whatever dielectric compound is needed to overcome any corrosive or galvanic issues that may occur. (Lot of times just for dissimilar metals) There are millions of ampacity charts out there- just match the gauge to the requirement.
In summary, given the average car starter and I think you said a 600a battery with a #4 conductor (you could get by with #6 but I always favor going up a size. On my duty vehicles I upgrade to #0 but we are pulling loads far beyond any vehicle requirement because they supply inverter power at remote job sites) and assuming all are functional with tight connections- you have 500%+ available power which is more than enough by orders of magnitude to overcome any voltage drop or impedance in what amounts to about a 6 foot run.
If you have verified all that and it’s still not working- there’s a problem elsewhere.
I have to admit, as an engineer I appreciate and respect the considerations and level of thought you are putting into your project.
That said, on the electrical side (load, impedance, connections etc.) I am unclear as to what exactly your goals, objectives or actual problem(s) are. You may in fact be overthinking this or possibly have a problem elsewhere.
Based on a few of your comments let me give you a bit of information and clarification to either help you in your quest or put your mind at ease.
Starter Rating- Just like every electrical motor made that figure they publish is what is known as the locked rotor current (in amps or Kw). Basically this is the maximum power requirement for a motor at zero state to energize 100% in order to turn 100% of its rated torque against the load equal to its torque value. In any motor ( this occurs almost in nano seconds and the average meter will not register or capture it) at zero state the first thing it does is fully energize due to the inrush current then tightens against the load then turns it. The actual run load (say the actual power to turn your engine) will probably be 3-5% of that number. Also the actual torque required for your individual engine will play a factor on the total amps required.
Starter motors are intermittent duty motors so there is no full load or running amp specification. DC motors are always the worse because they have a 100% full load flat wave on the sine where an AC motor has 2 points of zero potential.
They publish that number because all the electrical services must meet that power requirement + 25% (per NEC which is not really applicable in the automotive world)
The battery- The BCI publishes these specifications CCA (cold cranking amps) and CA (cranking amps) which are the full load a battery can deliver at 0 or 32 F respectively for 30 seconds while maintaining a cell voltage of 1.2 VDC and 7.2 VDC overall. It’s how batteries are ranked to the standard. (There are other ratings but don’t apply to your situation)
Conductors, connections and load- 2 things to remember, in a DC circuit electron flow( current) flows from negative to positive and the electrons flow on the OUTSIDE of the conductor. I point that out because the critical parameter for the conductor is overall surface contact and the diameter. The connection is the same but also should have whatever dielectric compound is needed to overcome any corrosive or galvanic issues that may occur. (Lot of times just for dissimilar metals) There are millions of ampacity charts out there- just match the gauge to the requirement.
In summary, given the average car starter and I think you said a 600a battery with a #4 conductor (you could get by with #6 but I always favor going up a size. On my duty vehicles I upgrade to #0 but we are pulling loads far beyond any vehicle requirement because they supply inverter power at remote job sites) and assuming all are functional with tight connections- you have 500%+ available power which is more than enough by orders of magnitude to overcome any voltage drop or impedance in what amounts to about a 6 foot run.
If you have verified all that and it’s still not working- there’s a problem elsewhere.
Most detailed reply to date, thanks ISO55000!
"I am unclear as to what exactly your goals, objectives or actual problem(s) are. You may in fact be overthinking this or possibly have a problem elsewhere."
The goal is to create a set of cables that will work with the '03 Accent without becoming a problem at a point in the near future: they should be slower to rust and better insulated against moisture, heat, and motion wear than the OEM cables and not less than the electrical demands of the starter motor, alternator, and engine. That said, yeah, I am overthinking it and want to get it over with--I've decided to buy the OEM replacement cable, and work on making a superior DiY cable as a lower-priority project.
http://www.new-cars.com/2003/hyundai/hyundai-accent-specs.html#capacities
This lists the engine torque as 106 lb-ft @ 3000 RPM, or 143.7 N-m @ 3000 RPM. It idles at around 1000 RPM; I think it gets to around 2000 RPM on ignition. I'll use 143.7 N-m since I don't know how to calculate what the N-m would be for 2000 RPM. The alternator is rated at 75A (unknown at what voltage and what N-m and RPM that was tested at). Assuming it's at its lowest 3% of the actual normal running amps (RLA), the locked rotor current would be 2500 amps.
It's got a DC battery, therefore it's going to be full load flat wave on the sine.
The starter rating is 900kW, and since the actual power requirement is 75% of the rated requirement, the actual starter rating should be 675kW. The battery is rated at 12V, which means the engine's actual amps requirement should be 56.25 amps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes
Using Wikipedia's wire gauge ampacity chart and 56.25 amps requirement, the minimum diameter AWG to exceed 56.25 amps at any temperature would be 4 AWG. CustomBatteryCables recommended 2 AWG, but based on this math, 2 AWG would be overkill. I'm fine with overkill, though--the price difference is less than $20, I think. I'm thinking more of the requirement in the present scenario.
If it had a watercooled high output rated alternator (which would be nice, seeing as flooded roads can temporarily nullify unsealed alternators) under sustained full load with 7.1 surround and subs and a higher capacity battery, I think I'd have to go with 2 AWG. I'm pretty sure I'd go with a different base vehicle to deal with flooded roads like yesterday in Bullitt and Jefferson counties--multiple leaks in the cover panels into the interior, low clearance, no exhaust or air intake snorkels, etc.. Electrical power almost quit (dimmed headlamps and noticeable decreased power steering and air blower power) after going through some of the deeper running water (maybe four inches or deeper); probably more from wet battery connnections than the alternator. I think I'm going to need more than the permatex seal to waterproof the battery. Maybe liquid rubber or something.
"I am unclear as to what exactly your goals, objectives or actual problem(s) are. You may in fact be overthinking this or possibly have a problem elsewhere."
The goal is to create a set of cables that will work with the '03 Accent without becoming a problem at a point in the near future: they should be slower to rust and better insulated against moisture, heat, and motion wear than the OEM cables and not less than the electrical demands of the starter motor, alternator, and engine. That said, yeah, I am overthinking it and want to get it over with--I've decided to buy the OEM replacement cable, and work on making a superior DiY cable as a lower-priority project.
http://www.new-cars.com/2003/hyundai/hyundai-accent-specs.html#capacities
This lists the engine torque as 106 lb-ft @ 3000 RPM, or 143.7 N-m @ 3000 RPM. It idles at around 1000 RPM; I think it gets to around 2000 RPM on ignition. I'll use 143.7 N-m since I don't know how to calculate what the N-m would be for 2000 RPM. The alternator is rated at 75A (unknown at what voltage and what N-m and RPM that was tested at). Assuming it's at its lowest 3% of the actual normal running amps (RLA), the locked rotor current would be 2500 amps.
It's got a DC battery, therefore it's going to be full load flat wave on the sine.
The starter rating is 900kW, and since the actual power requirement is 75% of the rated requirement, the actual starter rating should be 675kW. The battery is rated at 12V, which means the engine's actual amps requirement should be 56.25 amps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes
Using Wikipedia's wire gauge ampacity chart and 56.25 amps requirement, the minimum diameter AWG to exceed 56.25 amps at any temperature would be 4 AWG. CustomBatteryCables recommended 2 AWG, but based on this math, 2 AWG would be overkill. I'm fine with overkill, though--the price difference is less than $20, I think. I'm thinking more of the requirement in the present scenario.
If it had a watercooled high output rated alternator (which would be nice, seeing as flooded roads can temporarily nullify unsealed alternators) under sustained full load with 7.1 surround and subs and a higher capacity battery, I think I'd have to go with 2 AWG. I'm pretty sure I'd go with a different base vehicle to deal with flooded roads like yesterday in Bullitt and Jefferson counties--multiple leaks in the cover panels into the interior, low clearance, no exhaust or air intake snorkels, etc.. Electrical power almost quit (dimmed headlamps and noticeable decreased power steering and air blower power) after going through some of the deeper running water (maybe four inches or deeper); probably more from wet battery connnections than the alternator. I think I'm going to need more than the permatex seal to waterproof the battery. Maybe liquid rubber or something.
Hi again Joel
First let me start with a critical safety point because one thing you posted could cause serious injury
I think I'm going to need more than the permatex seal to waterproof the battery. Maybe liquid rubber or something.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE do you even attempt to do such a thing. A wet celled battery by design generates heat and gasses during normal operation. If you were to inhibit the battery’s ability to “breathe” (yes even seals batteries have venting) you are by default creating the equivalent of a fragmentation grenade under your hood. In the interest of safety CEASE AND DESIST that part of your project and that’s a DIRECT AND LAWFUL ORDER!!!
If you already did it, scrape it off now. I cannot in good conscience allow you to create a condition that could potentially injure you even when done innocently. (I’m anal and unforgiving on safety because accidents hurt)
Cables- the OEM will be adequate for any normal use but if you want a “superior” cable, here’s what you need to do. (Way overkill but on my own service vehicles I do this because in terms of electrical load- I abuse them well over 1000% over anything a stand-alone vehicle would ever encounter)
* Note to all experienced mechanics on the board, I know the following will be way overkill and totally unnecessary in almost every application but the OP did ask for “superior” and this would certainly qualify.
1) Solder the end wire for about an inch. This will create a solid fit with no squishing to maintain proper diameter for electron flow. It will also reduce the conductors internal fracturing from bending thus adding resistance and impedance. It will also help ensure a proper fit to the terminal. Make sure the bend radius of the soldered part does not create a shear shelf and you are fine.
2) You would want a hydraulically crimped brass marine type fitting for that soldered wire or solder/braze the wire into the terminal. In the “perfect” world the solder/braze is best because it provides maximum flow of electrons with the least resistance. In the real world either would be 10,000% over a vehicles requirements. You choose brass over lead or copper not because of any electrical benefit as defined by Ohms law but because of the physical material properties of the base material in the connection and Brass has the least vulnerability to corrosion when exposed to the battery gassing and is more acceptable to soldering/brazing than lead. You would also want SS hardware for that same reason.
3) Coat the connection with whatever sealant you want and put a heat shrink sleeve over it and seal it.
That’s about as superior as is humanly possible to get.
Torque- You quoted running torque of the engine; the starter is focused on the starting torque of the cold engine. Not the same torque metric. (I hope you don’t intend to use the starter as a brake motor against a running engine so you can disregard that part)
Stated starter rating- the figure of 56.25 amps sounds well within the norm for a car starter so no issues there. Remember that in the starting torque equation once the starter moves that crank and the engine takes over that amp requirement will drop to a piece of a fraction of that number.
AWG ratings- Those values are based on a continuous load and contingent on the conductor insulation class. For what amounts to a few second spike, you can disregard that as well. I agree #4 is perfectly adequate for normal use and unless you are using an inverter or winch or other attachment #2 is way overkill and will not offer any additional benefit whatsoever.
Alternator- disregard that also because alternators work very well when wet and they do not require the same gauge as the starter. If you are experiencing dimming lights or a redux in a blower its either due to a reduction in RPM, belt slippage, a defect in the alternator or a circuit issue creating resistance. The power steering is a mechanical function and not related to the vehicles electrical system.
Hope this helps you and if I can assist further don’t hesitate to ask.
First let me start with a critical safety point because one thing you posted could cause serious injury
I think I'm going to need more than the permatex seal to waterproof the battery. Maybe liquid rubber or something.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE do you even attempt to do such a thing. A wet celled battery by design generates heat and gasses during normal operation. If you were to inhibit the battery’s ability to “breathe” (yes even seals batteries have venting) you are by default creating the equivalent of a fragmentation grenade under your hood. In the interest of safety CEASE AND DESIST that part of your project and that’s a DIRECT AND LAWFUL ORDER!!!
If you already did it, scrape it off now. I cannot in good conscience allow you to create a condition that could potentially injure you even when done innocently. (I’m anal and unforgiving on safety because accidents hurt)
Cables- the OEM will be adequate for any normal use but if you want a “superior” cable, here’s what you need to do. (Way overkill but on my own service vehicles I do this because in terms of electrical load- I abuse them well over 1000% over anything a stand-alone vehicle would ever encounter)
* Note to all experienced mechanics on the board, I know the following will be way overkill and totally unnecessary in almost every application but the OP did ask for “superior” and this would certainly qualify.
1) Solder the end wire for about an inch. This will create a solid fit with no squishing to maintain proper diameter for electron flow. It will also reduce the conductors internal fracturing from bending thus adding resistance and impedance. It will also help ensure a proper fit to the terminal. Make sure the bend radius of the soldered part does not create a shear shelf and you are fine.
2) You would want a hydraulically crimped brass marine type fitting for that soldered wire or solder/braze the wire into the terminal. In the “perfect” world the solder/braze is best because it provides maximum flow of electrons with the least resistance. In the real world either would be 10,000% over a vehicles requirements. You choose brass over lead or copper not because of any electrical benefit as defined by Ohms law but because of the physical material properties of the base material in the connection and Brass has the least vulnerability to corrosion when exposed to the battery gassing and is more acceptable to soldering/brazing than lead. You would also want SS hardware for that same reason.
3) Coat the connection with whatever sealant you want and put a heat shrink sleeve over it and seal it.
That’s about as superior as is humanly possible to get.
Torque- You quoted running torque of the engine; the starter is focused on the starting torque of the cold engine. Not the same torque metric. (I hope you don’t intend to use the starter as a brake motor against a running engine so you can disregard that part)
Stated starter rating- the figure of 56.25 amps sounds well within the norm for a car starter so no issues there. Remember that in the starting torque equation once the starter moves that crank and the engine takes over that amp requirement will drop to a piece of a fraction of that number.
AWG ratings- Those values are based on a continuous load and contingent on the conductor insulation class. For what amounts to a few second spike, you can disregard that as well. I agree #4 is perfectly adequate for normal use and unless you are using an inverter or winch or other attachment #2 is way overkill and will not offer any additional benefit whatsoever.
Alternator- disregard that also because alternators work very well when wet and they do not require the same gauge as the starter. If you are experiencing dimming lights or a redux in a blower its either due to a reduction in RPM, belt slippage, a defect in the alternator or a circuit issue creating resistance. The power steering is a mechanical function and not related to the vehicles electrical system.
Hope this helps you and if I can assist further don’t hesitate to ask.
Hmm, I don't think he was intending to seal the entire battery with permatex!
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Hmm, I don't think he was intending to seal the entire battery with permatex!
Quite possibly true and correct but basing my assessment solely on his stated comments, not knowing him personally and the fact this is a blog I made a choice too err on the side of extreme caution to prevent what may possibly result in damage or serious injury.
Do you see a flaw in or otherwise disagree with my reasoning all things considered?
Hmm, I don't think he was intending to seal the entire battery with permatex!
Quite possibly true and correct but basing my assessment solely on his stated comments, not knowing him personally and the fact this is a blog I made a choice too err on the side of extreme caution to prevent what may possibly result in damage or serious injury.
Do you see a flaw in or otherwise disagree with my reasoning all things considered?
Yikes, I'll stay away from non-ventilated sealant. My intent was to place it only on the posts and terminals, but I'm going to scrap the idea completely. I haven't done anything in regards to the battery project but price components and tools. I'll put the submersible car project on indefinite hiatus.
"Make sure the bend radius of the soldered part does not create a shear shelf and you are fine." Sounds like this is for direct terminal to cable connections. I don't understand what a shear shelf is in this context--probably squishing of the cable or avoiding kinks or too tight of a bend in the cable.
"You would want a hydraulically crimped brass marine type fitting" I'm having trouble finding any brass lug rings (heavy wall or non-heavy wall, the lowest gauge I've found is 8 AWG, way too small for this application). All I'm finding are tinned copper heavy wall lug rings for 4 AWG and larger diameters, unfortunately.
Found some expensive solid brass terminals (for non-lug ring connection):
http://www.amazon.com/Maxxlink-FLEXIbras...attery+terminal
http://www.amazon.com/ROCKFORD-FOSGATE-P...attery+terminal
And one inexpensive all-brass terminal for non lug-ring installation:
http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Brass-Battery...attery+terminal
Lead-plated brass, for lug-ring type connections (I'm seeing multiple products that are tinned as well):
http://www.amazon.com/Pico-Positive-Nega...attery+terminal
Sierra Marine's solid brass terminals have a problem with the bolts used, apparently:
http://www.amazon.com/Sierra-International-BT44470-Negative-Terminal/dp/B001PRVX08
These are brass finished (doesn't say what the internal material is; if it's just a finish, I'd guess it's lead), no tinning, no lead plating, and are lug-ring type; they are not referred to as marine terminals; neither of the two entries below have any reviews available:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail...5&ppt=C0005
It appears to be the same product from here:
https://tinnedmarinewire.com/wire/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=99
"brake motor against a running engine" I don't know what that is, so no, I'm not intending to.
"unless you are using an inverter or winch or other attachment #2 is way overkill" I have a small Maxx inverter I use for my laptop and dye sublimination printer; the present battery cables didn't seem to cause any issue with it. I've seen some accessories like an air pump run from the DC power socket, other than that I can't think of anything besides regular starts and engine use.
"If you are experiencing dimming lights or a redux in a blower its either due to a reduction in RPM, belt slippage, a defect in the alternator or a circuit issue creating resistance. The power steering is a mechanical function and not related to the vehicles electrical system." Yep, belt slippage. Squeeks like crazy and is a high priority in need of replacement along with the battery project, fluid changes, the muffler needing reattachment, and the other timing belt and a third belt that goes to other stuff needing replacement. Glad the alternator isn't failing at least.
"Make sure the bend radius of the soldered part does not create a shear shelf and you are fine." Sounds like this is for direct terminal to cable connections. I don't understand what a shear shelf is in this context--probably squishing of the cable or avoiding kinks or too tight of a bend in the cable.
"You would want a hydraulically crimped brass marine type fitting" I'm having trouble finding any brass lug rings (heavy wall or non-heavy wall, the lowest gauge I've found is 8 AWG, way too small for this application). All I'm finding are tinned copper heavy wall lug rings for 4 AWG and larger diameters, unfortunately.
Found some expensive solid brass terminals (for non-lug ring connection):
http://www.amazon.com/Maxxlink-FLEXIbras...attery+terminal
http://www.amazon.com/ROCKFORD-FOSGATE-P...attery+terminal
And one inexpensive all-brass terminal for non lug-ring installation:
http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Brass-Battery...attery+terminal
Lead-plated brass, for lug-ring type connections (I'm seeing multiple products that are tinned as well):
http://www.amazon.com/Pico-Positive-Nega...attery+terminal
Sierra Marine's solid brass terminals have a problem with the bolts used, apparently:
http://www.amazon.com/Sierra-International-BT44470-Negative-Terminal/dp/B001PRVX08
These are brass finished (doesn't say what the internal material is; if it's just a finish, I'd guess it's lead), no tinning, no lead plating, and are lug-ring type; they are not referred to as marine terminals; neither of the two entries below have any reviews available:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail...5&ppt=C0005
It appears to be the same product from here:
https://tinnedmarinewire.com/wire/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=99
"brake motor against a running engine" I don't know what that is, so no, I'm not intending to.
"unless you are using an inverter or winch or other attachment #2 is way overkill" I have a small Maxx inverter I use for my laptop and dye sublimination printer; the present battery cables didn't seem to cause any issue with it. I've seen some accessories like an air pump run from the DC power socket, other than that I can't think of anything besides regular starts and engine use.
"If you are experiencing dimming lights or a redux in a blower its either due to a reduction in RPM, belt slippage, a defect in the alternator or a circuit issue creating resistance. The power steering is a mechanical function and not related to the vehicles electrical system." Yep, belt slippage. Squeeks like crazy and is a high priority in need of replacement along with the battery project, fluid changes, the muffler needing reattachment, and the other timing belt and a third belt that goes to other stuff needing replacement. Glad the alternator isn't failing at least.
Here are two more Autoparts store bought steel ring terminals cut off of the 4 gauge SAE cable.
Next to them is a thick wall 4awg lug I bought from Genuinedealz.com
Notice how much thicker the opening for 4awg cable on a real thick walled lug, compared to the stranding of the SAE 4 gauge
It was $1.82. no tax, free shipping.
Next to them is a thick wall 4awg lug I bought from Genuinedealz.com
Notice how much thicker the opening for 4awg cable on a real thick walled lug, compared to the stranding of the SAE 4 gauge
It was $1.82. no tax, free shipping.
Let me point out something here in your post WRC because maybe I left out a very important detail that may put what I said earlier in context. (And in a few other threads too)
Maybe people who don’t do load surveys, power quality audits and calculating power factors at the engineering level never paid close attention to this because in the automotive world it doesn’t really matter but there are significant differences in “automotive” wire and “Industrial wire” that the AWG rating does not cover or fully address and this will explain the difference in the thickness differences you show and a few other things.
I never thought to make the distinction but with your pictures and Joel’s desire for the ultimate cable- maybe it’s not as common knowledge as I believed.
When you forget tinning (which is for corrosion protection and not an AWG requirement) and insulation characteristics the difference between SAE and AWG gauges is that for a given gauge the strand count is in the same range but the circumference variation is in the range of around 20%. In layman’s English that means there is (depending on individual gauge) anywhere from 10-25% more copper in the AWG as opposed to its SAE first cousin.
So when that ampacity rating is given the additional copper allows more potential and more power due to increased surface area and a greater reduction in resistance and impedance.
It is also superior in strength allowing for tighter crimping, greater resistance to vibration, shearing, heat and all those other things. (This is why in industry using almost anything with an SAE rating is against code and often illegal)
Joel:
I suggest you go directly to the counter of your local electrical supply house and let them source all this stuff. If a brass is not available, tinned copper or whatever will work equally as well (just get SS hardware for tightening)
Also using AWG wire, get thick walled connectors and if they offer the service let the supply house do the crimping.
That shear shelf is for a given connection (solid or stranded) where the bend radius meets the sharp edge of the lug or soldered wire. There are 2 different stresses there and that imaginary line is the shear shelf. Just make sure you don’t have a tight almost 90 bend and you should be fine.
If you want to do your own load calc, remember West Virginia. W= VxA.
So if the voltage is 12 and you know the watts of the load then do the math and you will find the amps to tell you what size conductor you need.
Maybe people who don’t do load surveys, power quality audits and calculating power factors at the engineering level never paid close attention to this because in the automotive world it doesn’t really matter but there are significant differences in “automotive” wire and “Industrial wire” that the AWG rating does not cover or fully address and this will explain the difference in the thickness differences you show and a few other things.
I never thought to make the distinction but with your pictures and Joel’s desire for the ultimate cable- maybe it’s not as common knowledge as I believed.
When you forget tinning (which is for corrosion protection and not an AWG requirement) and insulation characteristics the difference between SAE and AWG gauges is that for a given gauge the strand count is in the same range but the circumference variation is in the range of around 20%. In layman’s English that means there is (depending on individual gauge) anywhere from 10-25% more copper in the AWG as opposed to its SAE first cousin.
So when that ampacity rating is given the additional copper allows more potential and more power due to increased surface area and a greater reduction in resistance and impedance.
It is also superior in strength allowing for tighter crimping, greater resistance to vibration, shearing, heat and all those other things. (This is why in industry using almost anything with an SAE rating is against code and often illegal)
Joel:
I suggest you go directly to the counter of your local electrical supply house and let them source all this stuff. If a brass is not available, tinned copper or whatever will work equally as well (just get SS hardware for tightening)
Also using AWG wire, get thick walled connectors and if they offer the service let the supply house do the crimping.
That shear shelf is for a given connection (solid or stranded) where the bend radius meets the sharp edge of the lug or soldered wire. There are 2 different stresses there and that imaginary line is the shear shelf. Just make sure you don’t have a tight almost 90 bend and you should be fine.
If you want to do your own load calc, remember West Virginia. W= VxA.
So if the voltage is 12 and you know the watts of the load then do the math and you will find the amps to tell you what size conductor you need.
The closest I've found to brass terminals with any kind of tinning or finish are the Maxxlink and Rockford-Fosgate ones; only the Maxxlink ones are enclosed; not sure if they require bare cable or if they would accept soldered cable ends. The Maxxlink ones are $22.91; now money really isn't the deciding factor between the two I've narrowed it down to; it's down to the connection system between these and the connection system used by the Ancor terminals listed below. The Maxxlink is unfinished brass in a plastic housing; that means it might not be protected from corrosion since it isn't tinned.
I've found some tinned copper terminals by Ancor. They have brass wingnuts; that means I've got to find some stainless steel ones to avoid corrosion. Not a big problem. The material composition of the nuts and bolts is still unknown. "Each of the parts comes with a brass wingnut. None of the bolts or wingnuts for all the battery terminals are stainless steel." I guess the nuts and bolts are regular steel.
If you buy the two Ancor terminals separately from Marine Discount Center, they're cheaper than if you buy the package. $20.68 total, or $22.86 if you buy them off Amazon.
http://www.marinediscountcenter.com/stor...RNC7xoC-Avw_wcB
http://marinediscountcenter.com/store/Ancor-Tinned-Battery-Terminal-5-16-Stud-Negative.html
I've looked up a few electrical parts houses. I'll ask them to take care of building the cables once I have the specs to hand them. Hopefully they'll take care of the soldering as well.
Thanks for explaining the shear shelf!
If my math is correct, 4 AWG will work for the main cables for now. If I had a different audio system, it might be different, but I've got enough things to work on without getting into audio upgrades.
I've found some tinned copper terminals by Ancor. They have brass wingnuts; that means I've got to find some stainless steel ones to avoid corrosion. Not a big problem. The material composition of the nuts and bolts is still unknown. "Each of the parts comes with a brass wingnut. None of the bolts or wingnuts for all the battery terminals are stainless steel." I guess the nuts and bolts are regular steel.
If you buy the two Ancor terminals separately from Marine Discount Center, they're cheaper than if you buy the package. $20.68 total, or $22.86 if you buy them off Amazon.
http://www.marinediscountcenter.com/stor...RNC7xoC-Avw_wcB
http://marinediscountcenter.com/store/Ancor-Tinned-Battery-Terminal-5-16-Stud-Negative.html
I've looked up a few electrical parts houses. I'll ask them to take care of building the cables once I have the specs to hand them. Hopefully they'll take care of the soldering as well.
Thanks for explaining the shear shelf!
If my math is correct, 4 AWG will work for the main cables for now. If I had a different audio system, it might be different, but I've got enough things to work on without getting into audio upgrades.
- Status
