Oil Recommendation for 2006 Infiniti G35 Coupe

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
No, you continue to obfuscate the issue.
It's not just about the bearings being full of oil but rather oil flow itself. And when the oil pump is in bypass mode oil less oil is flowing through the engine. That's less oil getting to camshaft lobes, less oil to the cylinder walls, less oil flowing everywhere; consequently lubrication has been compromised.


Sorry CATERHAM, but in that single post you have demonstrated that you don't understand the subject matter at all.

Flow doesn't lubricate anything.


Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
No, you continue to obfuscate the issue.
It's not just about the bearings being full of oil but rather oil flow itself. And when the oil pump is in bypass mode oil less oil is flowing through the engine. That's less oil getting to camshaft lobes, less oil to the cylinder walls, less oil flowing everywhere; consequently lubrication has been compromised.


Sorry CATERHAM, but in that single post you have demonstrated that you don't understand the subject matter at all.

Flow doesn't lubricate anything.


Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.



YAY!!! CONMAN the insurance guy is back to tilt at tribological windmills with his "it-sounds-good-in-my-head-so-it-must-be-true" theories, then arue with actual experts when they correct him.

Oh well, its good for a laugh and harmless enough, as long the uninitiated realize they are reading an internet blowhard instead of someone who has a clue what they are talking about.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Looks like some of you guys got tangled up in a CATERHAM web.

You're going to be mixing a CATERHAM blend next to see how quiet it is in your 3800, admit it.

Yes, going with a heavy version of the TGMO 0W-20/M1 OW-40 blend is one way to run a heavier than spec' 30 grade oil (if you must) with no start-up lubrication downside.
And if you'd rather not go the blending route, be the first to try the new PP Euro LX 0W-30. This heavy 3.5cP HTHSV rated oil will be lighter than the spec' 5W-30 (such as PP or M1 5W-30) at all start-up temp's at least as high as 90F.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
No, you continue to obfuscate the issue.
It's not just about the bearings being full of oil but rather oil flow itself. And when the oil pump is in bypass mode oil less oil is flowing through the engine. That's less oil getting to camshaft lobes, less oil to the cylinder walls, less oil flowing everywhere; consequently lubrication has been compromised.


Sorry CATERHAM, but in that single post you have demonstrated that you don't understand the subject matter at all.

Flow doesn't lubricate anything.


Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.



That whole statement hinges on somebody running a lubricant that isn't appropriate for the expected ambient conditions though and stated in a way that this is seemingly intentionally omitted so that the agenda can continue.

Yes, you might get insufficient flow (pump cavitation, oil not pumping) if you run 20w-50 when it is -35C. But that's hardly being true to the discussion now is it?

There was a video posted in the Royal Purple thread that demonstrated flow (under gravity) of a number of oils at -40C. Mobil 1 5w-30, despite having a pour point of -42C and being at a temperature well below the point that it is qualified for via CCS/MRV, STILL FLOWED. And this was not the product being PUMPED, simply POURED from the bottle. So if it can FLOW at a temperature BELOW its rating operating range while NOT being PUMPED, then what does that say for a product being used inside its intended operating range?

That's the entire purpose behind the CCS/MRV testing. To qualify cold temperature performance.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes, going with a heavy version of the TGMO 0W-20/M1 OW-40 blend is one way to run a heavier than spec' 30 grade oil (if you must) with no start-up lubrication downside.
And if you'd rather not go the blending route, be the first to try the new PP Euro LX 0W-30. This heavy 3.5cP HTHSV rated oil will be lighter than the spec' 5W-30 (such as PP or M1 5W-30) at all start-up temp's at least as high as 90F.

I may try PP Euro LX 0W-30 in either S2000 or E430. Currently both have a mixed Castrol Edge 0W40 and 0W20 at a ratio 60% 0W40 and 40% 0W20 to get a heavy xW30 around 3.2-3.3 HTHS.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
No, you continue to obfuscate the issue.
It's not just about the bearings being full of oil but rather oil flow itself. And when the oil pump is in bypass mode oil less oil is flowing through the engine. That's less oil getting to camshaft lobes, less oil to the cylinder walls, less oil flowing everywhere; consequently lubrication has been compromised.


Sorry CATERHAM, but in that single post you have demonstrated that you don't understand the subject matter at all.

Flow doesn't lubricate anything.


Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.



Yes, you might get insufficient flow (pump cavitation, oil not pumping) if you run 20w-50 when it is -35C. But that's hardly being true to the discussion now is it?

I'm not talking about extreme cold conditions at all but rather even just moderately cold temp's at the freezing point and even higher.
Running a grade heavier (without an appropriately higher VI) means the oil pump will
be in bypass more often every time the engine is started cold and you will also need to achieve 10-15C higher oil temp's befor you can use maximum rev's and still not be in bypass.
I'm just pointing out the downside of running a heavier oil grade, even one with the same SAE winter grade rating or even a lower one.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes, going with a heavy version of the TGMO 0W-20/M1 OW-40 blend is one way to run a heavier than spec' 30 grade oil (if you must) with no start-up lubrication downside.
And if you'd rather not go the blending route, be the first to try the new PP Euro LX 0W-30. This heavy 3.5cP HTHSV rated oil will be lighter than the spec' 5W-30 (such as PP or M1 5W-30) at all start-up temp's at least as high as 90F.

I may try PP Euro LX 0W-30 in either S2000 or E430. Currently both have a mixed Castrol Edge 0W40 and 0W20 at a ratio 60% 0W40 and 40% 0W20 to get a heavy xW30 around 3.2-3.3 HTHS.

That be cool to be the first member to try this oil and perhaps post a VOA/UOA?

 

[HTSS_TR]

The problem are two folds:

First, I just changed oil in my S2000 and E430 couple months ago and I intend to do 1 year OCI for both cars.
Second, I need to find where I can buy this new PP Euro LX 0W-30 at local stores, if not than Amazon is probably place it can be found at reasonable price.

I never done VOA/UOA, but probably will do with PP Euro LX 0W-30 if I eventually use it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I'm not talking about extreme cold conditions at all but rather even just moderately cold temp's at the freezing point and even higher.


Not with this statement you are not:

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.


That's the entire purpose of CCS/MRV, to ensure proper flow/lubrication at the temperatures it is tested at. Above those temperatures, you are not sacrificing anything other than perhaps some additional power loss due to drag and the more viscous oil being harder to pump.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Running a grade heavier (without an appropriately higher VI) means the oil pump will
be in bypass more often every time the engine is started cold and you will also need to achieve 10-15C higher oil temp's befor you can use maximum rev's and still not be in bypass.
I'm just pointing out the downside of running a heavier oil grade, even one with the same SAE winter grade rating or even a lower one.


The oil pump possibly being in bypass is a detour. Many Chrysler engines are on the bypass all the time. That's the purpose of the bypass to ensure that sufficient pressure is maintained in the system and excess routed back into the pump or the sump.

Bypass operation, frequency and set point are all incredibly manufacturer specific and one cannot simply state that because the pump is bypassing that damage is being done.

Insufficient flow would be the result of using a lubricant not appropriate for the conditions, like the example I cited. Other than an extreme condition like that the oil will pump, the oil will flow and there will be adequate lubrication.

Will there be lost efficiency? Certainly, but this is the case with any lubricant below operating temperature. There will be more drag and fuel economy will be slightly affected.

The problem I am seeing here is that you are trying to use statements that would make sense in the context of a lubricant being discussed outside its designed operating range to further your high VI agenda and subsequently these statements become nonsensical because they lose the connection to what validates them.

VI has nothing to do with cold temperature performance; it is calculated from the 40C and 100C visc values and does not extrapolate below 0C. CCS and MRV are directly applicable to cold temperature performance because that's what they measure. They can be backwards extrapolated in 5C increments from their measured point to around -15C.

On top of that, the differences between the various CCS and MRV measurements are THOUSANDS of cP; absolutely MASSIVE differences between oil grades, whilst above 0C, we are talking 10s and sometimes 100s or so cSt between grades. Minuscule by comparison. Yet this is the data you have chosen to fixate on

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Sorry CATERHAM, but in that single post you have demonstrated that you don't understand the subject matter at all.

Flow doesn't lubricate anything.


Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.


CATERHAM...the galleries are full, and have as much pressure as is ever going to be in them...nothing is being starved by the bypass being open, unless the oil is grossly misapplied (the W rating versus ambient, not the VI).

As we've discussed previously in your rotary viscometer premise, there are other mechanisms at play in a lubrication system. Some oil feeds are pressure/density, others governed by Kinematic Viscosity.

Seeing as cams are a concern that you've raised. BMW were worried enough that they put in squirters on the 2.3 inline 6. These are sharp edged orifices, of about 1.5mm diameter.

The flow through these is dependent on pressure and density...funnily, there will be less flow through these holes after the bypass closes, and "all" the oil is flowing through the engine...ergo the cams aren't being starved.

This is where you can wheel out the references in industry standard wear test, such as the Sequence IVA, should the high VI, lighter oils display the dominance in performance that you claim.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.


Show us something, anything in the literature that shows that an oil pump in bypass is delivering insufficient flow to properly lubricate the engine. Throw us a bone, something solid to chew on.

The flow through the engine is same with the bypass open or closed at the same viscosity and pressure. If the pump is delivering 6 gpm at 75 psi with the bypass closed, it will still pump 6 gpm at 75 psi through the engine with the bypass open. If the engine only needs 6 gpm to be properly lubricated at any rpm, where's the problem? Again, show us something showing oil flow under bypass has not been accounted for in engine design and is a problem. We'll listen.

Ed

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I might be trying M1 0W-40, so I suppose that's half the CATERHAM blend.

Yep, and M1 0w-40 isn't even an ILSAC 30!

Originally Posted By: Shannow
True, there's always fuel economy, but again, the claims being made for ultra high VI (like 4% better than other 0W20s) are completely out there.

True, and unless someone with the resources of an automaker or oil company were to take that argument to task (i.e. if there were some false advertising, hypothetically), that's about the only way we'd be able to show that, unfortunately.

Caterham: Merk using M1 0w-40 is the only way we'll ever get him using a high VI oil, so take what you can get out of it. All my wisecracks about ILSAC rated 30 grades could have easily pushed him to a monograde 30, so be happy.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Running a grade heavier (without an appropriately higher VI) means the oil pump will be in bypass more often every time the engine is started cold and you will also need to achieve 10-15C higher oil temp's befor you can use maximum rev's and still not be in bypass.


You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting how the oil pumps bypass works. Its not a blow off valve, its just a simple variable metering device, nothing more.
It would be bad practice to operate the engine at full rev cold, its not just about the oil but the engines internal parts take time and heat to achieve the proper clearances eg piston to bore.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I'm not talking about extreme cold conditions at all but rather even just moderately cold temp's at the freezing point and even higher.


Not with this statement you are not:

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Sorry Shannow, but if the oil isn't flowing or rather being supplied in sufficient quantities to the parts of the engine that need it, lubrication will indeed suffer.


That's the entire purpose of CCS/MRV, to ensure proper flow/lubrication at the temperatures it is tested at. Above those temperatures, you are not sacrificing anything other than perhaps some additional power loss due to drag and the more viscous oil being harder to pump.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Running a grade heavier (without an appropriately higher VI) means the oil pump will
be in bypass more often every time the engine is started cold and you will also need to achieve 10-15C higher oil temp's befor you can use maximum rev's and still not be in bypass.
I'm just pointing out the downside of running a heavier oil grade, even one with the same SAE winter grade rating or even a lower one.


The oil pump possibly being in bypass is a detour. Many Chrysler engines are on the bypass all the time. That's the purpose of the bypass to ensure that sufficient pressure is maintained in the system and excess routed back into the pump or the sump.

Bypass operation, frequency and set point are all incredibly manufacturer specific and one cannot simply state that because the pump is bypassing that damage is being done.

Insufficient flow would be the result of using a lubricant not appropriate for the conditions, like the example I cited. Other than an extreme condition like that the oil will pump, the oil will flow and there will be adequate lubrication.

Yes bypass operation is engine specific as is the oil grade recommended. If you choose to run an oil grade heavier than specified it's niave to think there will not be adverse consequences under some conditions which I have already explained. Your claim that the reduced oil flow in bypass will still "be adequate" may or may not be the case to prevent increased wear depending on how the engine is being operated.

 

[Shannow]

CATERHAM...in bypass, the oil isn't being dumped to the sump it's there, the galleries are FULL (or there'd be no pressure)...there is no lack of oil in the engine...the bearings just can't use it all..

Claiming some esoteric operational mode (some conditions) is being obtuse, and avoiding the elephant in the room, that you have nothing to defend your imagined position.

CATERHAM, you still owe the board
* the details of the pile of failed engines that you claim to have personally witnessed at the track that failed due to thick oil, and the failure modes/evidence (your claim, your evidence please);
* evidence that thinner oils, high VI oils do better at Industry Standard warm-up tests...your ongoing claim, is reduced start-up and warmup wear, please provide your evidence;
* operation in bypass typically causes engine damage/wear (your ongoing claim, your evidence please);
* that TGMO produces 4% better economy than other 20s.

 

[chrisri]

Pressure relief valve exist in engine only to prevent excessive oil pressure that could possibly damage oil seals and gaskets, but that doesn't mean there would actually be any pressure drop or oil starvation in the engine.Bypass valve will only keep pressure at a maximum that's safe/necessary for engine to operate properly.

One could pick thinnest oil there is, but oil pump would still go bypass at high rpm if working properly.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

The problem I am seeing here is that you are trying to use statements that would make sense in the context of a lubricant being discussed outside its designed operating range to further your high VI agenda and subsequently these statements become nonsensical because they lose the connection to what validates them.

VI has nothing to do with cold temperature performance; it is calculated from the 40C and 100C visc values and does not extrapolate below 0C. CCS and MRV are directly applicable to cold temperature performance because that's what they measure. They can be backwards extrapolated in 5C increments from their measured point to around -15C.

On top of that, the differences between the various CCS and MRV measurements are THOUSANDS of cP; absolutely MASSIVE differences between oil grades, whilst above 0C, we are talking 10s and sometimes 100s or so cSt between grades. Minuscule by comparison. Yet this is the data you have chosen to fixate on

To repeat, the disadvantages of using a heavier than specified 40 grade oil apply at start-up temp's well above freezing and of course an oil's VI or put more precisely, the actual start-up viscosity, is all important.
Running heavier oil grades necessitates a prolonged warming-up regimen if you want to avoid the possibility of increased engine wear. For example BMW's variable tach on 10W-60 spec'd cars still applies even on a hot summer day although the rev' limit is higher.
The lighter the oil is the better because you need not be as concerned about a careful warm-up regimen before using high rev's.

Ironically the boy racer owners of sporty cars are more inclined to buy into the notion that they need to use a heavier than specified oil grade because they "drive hard". These individuals in my experience are the last ones to pay any attention to warming-up the car properly before bouncing the tach needle off redline and therefore would be much better off running the specified oil grade with the highest VI possible.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Yes bypass operation is engine specific


OK, first point that we are on the same page about. This means you cannot make blanket generalizations about the relief, which you have been doing.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
as is the oil grade recommended.


Or grades. Or RANGE of grades. This depends on the engine, when it was made, where it is sold...etc. I hate to drag up the European and Australian examples but there are many of them that spec different grades of oil for the SAME ENGINE depending on where it is sold.

And then we could also drag in the 5L Modular Ford spec'ing 5w-20 an 5w-50 for the SAME ENGINE with the SAME OIL PUMP. Right?

If we were to accept your theory at face value, all the Track Pack GT's should have experienced massive mechanical issues due to running 3 grades heavier than their non-Track Pack GT siblings. Not only that, but WITH AN OIL COOLER! Which GUARANTEES they'd have even THICKER oil in them!

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If you choose to run an oil grade heavier than specified it's niave to think there will not be adverse consequences under some conditions which I have already explained. Your claim that the reduced oil flow in bypass will still "be adequate" may or may not be the case to prevent increased wear depending on how the engine is being operated.


You haven't explained anything. You've CLAIMED a lot of things. I tried to properly qualify those claims (and gave an example of a potentially problematic condition) and you dismiss the qualifications because you want to apply them more broadly than what can be done to support your high VI argument. Unfortunately taking that stance makes the entire thing fall apart and turns the argument into a joke.

If you run a lubricant outside of its intended operating range, you can potentially experience oil delivery issues. There are tests in place in the form of the W rating for the lubricant, validated through CCS and MRV to ensure that qualification.

This is why companies like BMW can spec 5w-30 and 10w-60 for the same engine. Why Ford can spec 5w-20 and 5w-50 for the same engine. And why historically owners manuals had a range of acceptable oil grades depending on anticipated operating temperature.

Using an appropriate lubricant for the operating conditions being experienced is all that is required to ensure proper lubrication. This means you can use 5w-50 in a 5w-30 application and aside from it being less than optimal, the oil is still going to pump, the oil is still going to flow and proper lubrication is going to happen.

Using a 10w-30 HDEO at -35C is using that lubricant outside of its acceptable operating range. Using a 5w-40 (marginal at that temp) or a 0w-40 is more appropriate, despite being a "grade heavier". These are the types of temperatures; temperatures that test the pumping limits of the oil, that are significant. Worrying about the difference between a 5w-20 and 0w-40 at -5C is ridiculous in comparison.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
To repeat, the disadvantages of using a heavier than specified 40 grade oil apply at start-up temp's well above freezing and of course an oil's VI or put more precisely, the actual start-up viscosity, is all important.


Repeating hyperbole doesn't make it more valid.

These disadvantages are only significant in a vacuum where the minutia are magnified in such a way that one can pander them as being significant. OEM testing regiments will take a stone cold engine with bulk 5w-whatever in it frozen solid and run it WOT @ 100% load. They will do this HUNDREDS of times.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Running heavier oil grades necessitates a prolonged warming-up regimen if you want to avoid the possibility of increased engine wear. For example BMW's variable tach on 10W-60 spec'd cars still applies even on a hot summer day although the rev' limit is higher.


The variable tach was on the 5w-30 cars too. I own one. And that tach responds to oil temperature, not viscosity. It "allows" full revs before the oil is up to operating temperature BTW.

And the only thing that promotes a prolonged warm-up is ambient. If it is 30C, my oil is up to temp half-way to work. If it is -10C it never gets there in that short drive.

And the difference in actual viscosity between even the 10w-60 and 5w-30 at the "acceptable" temperature to the ECM is tiny compared to how much heavier both oils are below OC.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The lighter the oil is the better because you need not be as concerned about a careful warm-up regimen before using high rev's.


So the parts not being round, the rings not being sealed....etc all don't matter because I've got 0w-AWESOME in the sump? The warm-up isn't just for the oil, it is to ensure that all parts of the engine are at an adequate temperature; that the pistons are fitting properly in the bores, that parts have expanded to their "warm" sizes....etc.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Ironically the boy racer owners of sporty cars are more inclined to buy into the notion that they need to use a heavier than specified oil grade because they "drive hard". These individuals in my experience are the last ones to pay any attention to warming-up the car properly before bouncing the tach needle off redline and therefore would be much better off running the specified oil grade with the highest VI possible.


They'd be better off learning how to properly drive their cars. It doesn't matter if they have magic Unicorn semen in their sumps or 10w-60, if they are going WOT on a cold engine, they are slapping the pistons into the sides of the bores, they are hammering bearings that are out of round, and all of these parts are quickly being forced up to temperature, at different rates, while the oil is being diluted with fuel and cold start enrichment is washing the protection from the bores.

VI doesn't magically negate the mechanical side of the warm-up process and isn't a magic panacea for stupidity.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: chrisri

One could pick thinnest oil there is, but oil pump would still go bypass at high rpm if working properly.

Not quite.
If you're running an oil sufficiently thin enough the by-pass valve will of course be closed. Depending on the oil pump bypass setting, the oil's viscosity must to be no higher than about 13-18cSt in kinematic terms, regardless of the oil grade, to be able to use high rev's with the valve closed.
The lighter the oil grade, the lower the oil temperature the valve will remain closed.