And comparing yourself to others is not attacking. If Valvoline said that M1 HM is swill and will destroy any engine that it goes into, that would be an attack. If I say that Russell Wilson is a better quarterback than Tom Brady, I am not attacking Tom Brady.
Valvoline vs Mobil 1
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Originally Posted By: njohnson
The fine print says they used the "Cameron Plint Test". Not sure what that is, videos say "Coming Soon".
Some discussion on the limitations of such tests in comparing lubricants.
The fine print says they used the "Cameron Plint Test". Not sure what that is, videos say "Coming Soon".
Some discussion on the limitations of such tests in comparing lubricants.
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: tig1
However when was the last time M1 felt it necessary to condemn and compare their products to others by name?
You repeat this every time a company compares the performance of their products to Mobil1 and it gets a bit tiring. Arguing that M1's arrogance makes them the best is ludicrous. M1 relies on fanatical devotion like yours to get away with watering down their products. KCJeep pointed out that M1 HM has apparently devolved lately and instead of defending the product, you defend M1's marketing department! It is sad when blind devotion trumps scientific progress supported by industry accepted testing.
You say M1 is arrogant, buy M1 doesn't attack others. The little guys in the oil business are the ones taking pot shots at the synthetic oil leader.
You say it tires you because of my "devotion" to M1. Well, with 37 years of outstanding performance from their products, I guess you are right. DUH! That wasn't hard to figure out.
You say "blind devotion" and "scientific progress". M1 has been one of the industry leaders in engines lubricant development for decades. Yes, I fully support M1's "scientific progress" they have made for decades.
You say M1 "waters down their products" For one who has used their oils for 37 Years, Today's M1 is the best I personally Have ever used. Their "scientific progress" continues to make lubrication improvements.
M1's arrogance is demonstrated in their market position being their main selling point. The constant drumbeat of "We're number one! We're number one!" is tiring and your contribution to this thread shows it's nauseating effectiveness. The topic of this thread was that an oil beat M1 HM in one performance area and your response was basically "M1 is so good they do not have to compare themselves against others". The fact that their marketing department does not use quantifiable and comparable performance results to support their products is not reassuring to me. You said that the "little guys" are "taking pot shots". Really?!? If they can't compare themselves to other oil companies (or is it only M1 that is off limits?), what are they supposed to say? "We're number 3 and meet or exceed the requirements of API SN and are no better or worse than anyone else, but out bottle sure does look a lot sexier!"?
I have nothing against M1 as a product line, but the only reason I would use M1 would be because of BITOG members and their explanations of M1's performance merits, not their marketing departments. This thread provides evidence that another oil may be better than M1 HM in one regard. I may factor that in to a future oil selection, but M1 or you saying that M1 is the bee's knees doesn't do anything for me.
I do give weight to personal testimonials, but, as you pointed out, there has been a lot of progress over the past 37 years. Your devotion to M1 does not tire me, it is your fanaticism and apparent belief that M1 can do no wrong. Someone points out a flaw in an M1 product and the knee-jerk reaction is "M1 cannot be bothered with these pretenders", which is exactly what the M1 marketing department relies on. "Don't educate yourself about other options and do no believe the lies that other oils may be better than M1 in certain ways, just be soothed by our slogans. After all, taxis run hundreds of thousands of miles on our oil. And although we will not speak to the performance of other oils, we hope you assume that taxis using other oils will detonate after 100,000 miles. Our oils also work well in really cold and hot climates. Others' oils? Again, no comment, but that '83 Tercel you saw broken down on the side of the road last summer...I doubt they were running Mobil 1!"
I don't consider your criticism of me and my preference for M1 oils as anything alarming. It's happened here before. I also could care less of you"tiring". This is BITOG, get use to it.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: tig1
However when was the last time M1 felt it necessary to condemn and compare their products to others by name?
You repeat this every time a company compares the performance of their products to Mobil1 and it gets a bit tiring. Arguing that M1's arrogance makes them the best is ludicrous. M1 relies on fanatical devotion like yours to get away with watering down their products. KCJeep pointed out that M1 HM has apparently devolved lately and instead of defending the product, you defend M1's marketing department! It is sad when blind devotion trumps scientific progress supported by industry accepted testing.
You say M1 is arrogant, buy M1 doesn't attack others. The little guys in the oil business are the ones taking pot shots at the synthetic oil leader.
You say it tires you because of my "devotion" to M1. Well, with 37 years of outstanding performance from their products, I guess you are right. DUH! That wasn't hard to figure out.
You say "blind devotion" and "scientific progress". M1 has been one of the industry leaders in engines lubricant development for decades. Yes, I fully support M1's "scientific progress" they have made for decades.
You say M1 "waters down their products" For one who has used their oils for 37 Years, Today's M1 is the best I personally Have ever used. Their "scientific progress" continues to make lubrication improvements.
M1's arrogance is demonstrated in their market position being their main selling point. The constant drumbeat of "We're number one! We're number one!" is tiring and your contribution to this thread shows it's nauseating effectiveness. The topic of this thread was that an oil beat M1 HM in one performance area and your response was basically "M1 is so good they do not have to compare themselves against others". The fact that their marketing department does not use quantifiable and comparable performance results to support their products is not reassuring to me. You said that the "little guys" are "taking pot shots". Really?!? If they can't compare themselves to other oil companies (or is it only M1 that is off limits?), what are they supposed to say? "We're number 3 and meet or exceed the requirements of API SN and are no better or worse than anyone else, but out bottle sure does look a lot sexier!"?
I have nothing against M1 as a product line, but the only reason I would use M1 would be because of BITOG members and their explanations of M1's performance merits, not their marketing departments. This thread provides evidence that another oil may be better than M1 HM in one regard. I may factor that in to a future oil selection, but M1 or you saying that M1 is the bee's knees doesn't do anything for me.
I do give weight to personal testimonials, but, as you pointed out, there has been a lot of progress over the past 37 years. Your devotion to M1 does not tire me, it is your fanaticism and apparent belief that M1 can do no wrong. Someone points out a flaw in an M1 product and the knee-jerk reaction is "M1 cannot be bothered with these pretenders", which is exactly what the M1 marketing department relies on. "Don't educate yourself about other options and do no believe the lies that other oils may be better than M1 in certain ways, just be soothed by our slogans. After all, taxis run hundreds of thousands of miles on our oil. And although we will not speak to the performance of other oils, we hope you assume that taxis using other oils will detonate after 100,000 miles. Our oils also work well in really cold and hot climates. Others' oils? Again, no comment, but that '83 Tercel you saw broken down on the side of the road last summer...I doubt they were running Mobil 1!"
I don't consider your criticism of me and my preference for M1 oils as anything alarming. It's happened here before. I also could care less of you"tiring". This is BITOG, get use to it.
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Mobil 1 HM is one of my fave oils. I feel it's one of the best otc oils,along with M1 15W50.
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
And comparing yourself to others is not attacking. If Valvoline said that M1 HM is swill and will destroy any engine that it goes into, that would be an attack. If I say that Russell Wilson is a better quarterback than Tom Brady, I am not attacking Tom Brady.
Depends how slippery and deflated their balls are
And comparing yourself to others is not attacking. If Valvoline said that M1 HM is swill and will destroy any engine that it goes into, that would be an attack. If I say that Russell Wilson is a better quarterback than Tom Brady, I am not attacking Tom Brady.
Depends how slippery and deflated their balls are
Nothing productive comes from these kinds of threads.
No one is ever convinced that the other oil is better or worse.
You are past the mile marker for rational thought and are squarely in the realm of faith and beliefs.
Discussions about politics and religion, and here on BITOG, engine oil are all in the same category.
No one is ever convinced that the other oil is better or worse.
You are past the mile marker for rational thought and are squarely in the realm of faith and beliefs.
Discussions about politics and religion, and here on BITOG, engine oil are all in the same category.
Call.
In poker, this means for each competitor to cease the game and show their cards.
In BITOG - the only fair comparison I can think of is for each defendant of their favorite brand of oil to drop their oil pans, remove a connecting rod cap, pull out the bearing, clean it, and post a pic on here.
In poker, this means for each competitor to cease the game and show their cards.
In BITOG - the only fair comparison I can think of is for each defendant of their favorite brand of oil to drop their oil pans, remove a connecting rod cap, pull out the bearing, clean it, and post a pic on here.
I Don't see a problem with Valvoline's claims. People decide for themselves what they want to believe. I love Valvoline oils, but i also love M1 oils. I use both of these two more than any two other brands. From what i can tell performance has been identical.
My company vehicle has been run on Maxlife 5w20 since new and it is spotless through the fill hole. Before i found BITOG i was a devout M1 user and all my engines were always spotless and responsive. I can say the exact same for the engines that i have seen that have ran on Synpower. Both oils are Top Tier oils. M1 is definitly more recognizable in the Synthetic world, so i could see why Valvoline would compare themselves to Mobil 1. IMO opinion Valvoline is just as good, but i wouldn't say better.
My company vehicle has been run on Maxlife 5w20 since new and it is spotless through the fill hole. Before i found BITOG i was a devout M1 user and all my engines were always spotless and responsive. I can say the exact same for the engines that i have seen that have ran on Synpower. Both oils are Top Tier oils. M1 is definitly more recognizable in the Synthetic world, so i could see why Valvoline would compare themselves to Mobil 1. IMO opinion Valvoline is just as good, but i wouldn't say better.
So allow me to preface this by saying Mobil 1 makes excellent products. You can debate if they're above everyone else, or if they're in a class with peers, but I don't know anyone who would argue that Mobil 1 isn't a top tier product.
Similarly, Valvoline also makes excellent products. I've used their MaxLife HM oil in the past, and I'd use it again without hesitation.
That being said, M1/Mobil sells more oil than anyone else, and that makes them #1. Whether you realize it or not, the general population doesn't like bullies and as a result the person or company on top is not allowed to take shots at their lower competitors. However, we root for the little guy, and as a result we're okay with lower people/companies taking shots at those above them. You see it in advertising, you see it in comedy, you see it manifest itself just about anywhere it's applicable. You're allowed to punch up, but if the company at top starts taking unprovoked shots at those beneath them, society doesn't like it.
Valvoline isn't stupid, I'm sure that internally they had to get several layers of approval before mentioning another company in their advertising. They had to make sure that if called to do so, they can clearly defend the statements they made against M1.
But check out the Valvoline website, they really don't say anything directly attacking M1. They claim to have 40% more oil film in one test. Elsewhere on the site they claim things like they help reduce fuel economy, suitable for all model years, they meet various standards/approvals (Dexos 1, Ford specs, Chrysler Specs, etc), exceed the latest industry standards, etc.
They aren't really attacking M1, they're just saying that their new MaxLife formula (I'm assuming that they made some change) is energy conserving, SN rated, and they got various approvals (dexos 1, ford specs, etc). You don't even have to look at test data to back that up, their MaxLife synthetic is now SN rated and energy conserving, M1 is primarily SL rated and isn't stamped energy conserving (most HM aren't).
Regardless of which one you prefer, I think we'd all agree that they're both excellent HM products to choose from. I don't understand why the thread had to descend into such bickering.
Similarly, Valvoline also makes excellent products. I've used their MaxLife HM oil in the past, and I'd use it again without hesitation.
That being said, M1/Mobil sells more oil than anyone else, and that makes them #1. Whether you realize it or not, the general population doesn't like bullies and as a result the person or company on top is not allowed to take shots at their lower competitors. However, we root for the little guy, and as a result we're okay with lower people/companies taking shots at those above them. You see it in advertising, you see it in comedy, you see it manifest itself just about anywhere it's applicable. You're allowed to punch up, but if the company at top starts taking unprovoked shots at those beneath them, society doesn't like it.
Valvoline isn't stupid, I'm sure that internally they had to get several layers of approval before mentioning another company in their advertising. They had to make sure that if called to do so, they can clearly defend the statements they made against M1.
But check out the Valvoline website, they really don't say anything directly attacking M1. They claim to have 40% more oil film in one test. Elsewhere on the site they claim things like they help reduce fuel economy, suitable for all model years, they meet various standards/approvals (Dexos 1, Ford specs, Chrysler Specs, etc), exceed the latest industry standards, etc.
They aren't really attacking M1, they're just saying that their new MaxLife formula (I'm assuming that they made some change) is energy conserving, SN rated, and they got various approvals (dexos 1, ford specs, etc). You don't even have to look at test data to back that up, their MaxLife synthetic is now SN rated and energy conserving, M1 is primarily SL rated and isn't stamped energy conserving (most HM aren't).
Regardless of which one you prefer, I think we'd all agree that they're both excellent HM products to choose from. I don't understand why the thread had to descend into such bickering.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Nothing productive comes from these kinds of threads.
No one is ever convinced that the other oil is better or worse.
Yep, you've got the truest post on this thread so far....
My employer has a fleet of about 10 trucks. The drivers of each truck are supposed to watch the mileage of the truck they drive and then have a local mom-and-pop service station change the oil. However, the mileage quite often gets to be well over 10K before they have the service done. Then, when the service is done, the trucks get the cheapest NAPA ProSelect filter installed (that the mom-and-pop store purchased because of price) and the dino oil that goes into the trucks comes out of a bulk 55 gallon drum.
A lot of these trucks have 250K miles without ever an engine problem and a lot of the miles are on rural gravel road that can get quite dusty.
The bickering here between M1, Valvoline, and Brand X here is laughable.
BTW, two trucks were replaced in the last month because the beds of the old trucks were rusted out. If I can manage to snag them, I'll cut open some of the factory filters that come on the new Ford trucks.....after they've been driven about 10K miles.
Nothing productive comes from these kinds of threads.
No one is ever convinced that the other oil is better or worse.
Yep, you've got the truest post on this thread so far....
My employer has a fleet of about 10 trucks. The drivers of each truck are supposed to watch the mileage of the truck they drive and then have a local mom-and-pop service station change the oil. However, the mileage quite often gets to be well over 10K before they have the service done. Then, when the service is done, the trucks get the cheapest NAPA ProSelect filter installed (that the mom-and-pop store purchased because of price) and the dino oil that goes into the trucks comes out of a bulk 55 gallon drum.
A lot of these trucks have 250K miles without ever an engine problem and a lot of the miles are on rural gravel road that can get quite dusty.
The bickering here between M1, Valvoline, and Brand X here is laughable.
BTW, two trucks were replaced in the last month because the beds of the old trucks were rusted out. If I can manage to snag them, I'll cut open some of the factory filters that come on the new Ford trucks.....after they've been driven about 10K miles.
Nothing surprising here. They took a bench test and used it to their advantage. Whether it translates into real world noticeable performance is unknown. It could be Valvoline is using a slightly better anti-wear additive, but what that actually translates to is really anyone's guess. It's marketing. Mobil 1 is going to be the target being the are the market leader. Royal Purple Falex Test, Amsoil 4-ball wear etc. are examples of using simple bench tests to claim performance gains.
Originally Posted By: buster
Nothing surprising here. They took a bench test and used it to their advantage. Whether it translates into real world noticeable performance is unknown. It could be Valvoline is using a slightly better anti-wear additive, but what that actually translates to is really anyone's guess. It's marketing. Mobil 1 is going to be the target being the are the market leader. Royal Purple Falex Test, Amsoil 4-ball wear etc. are examples of using simple bench tests to claim performance gains.
And those test perform well because of extreme pressure additives(used in grease and gear lubes) added to their oil. M1 says EP additives are not necessary in engine oil and can actually cause internal corrision. Most modern oils do not use them.
Nothing surprising here. They took a bench test and used it to their advantage. Whether it translates into real world noticeable performance is unknown. It could be Valvoline is using a slightly better anti-wear additive, but what that actually translates to is really anyone's guess. It's marketing. Mobil 1 is going to be the target being the are the market leader. Royal Purple Falex Test, Amsoil 4-ball wear etc. are examples of using simple bench tests to claim performance gains.
And those test perform well because of extreme pressure additives(used in grease and gear lubes) added to their oil. M1 says EP additives are not necessary in engine oil and can actually cause internal corrision. Most modern oils do not use them.
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: buster
Nothing surprising here. They took a bench test and used it to their advantage. Whether it translates into real world noticeable performance is unknown. It could be Valvoline is using a slightly better anti-wear additive, but what that actually translates to is really anyone's guess. It's marketing. Mobil 1 is going to be the target being the are the market leader. Royal Purple Falex Test, Amsoil 4-ball wear etc. are examples of using simple bench tests to claim performance gains.
And those test perform well because of extreme pressure additives(used in grease and gear lubes) added to their oil. M1 says EP additives are not necessary in engine oil and can actually cause internal corrision. Most modern oils do not use them.
I always wondered if EP adds would be good for camshaft protection?
Originally Posted By: buster
Nothing surprising here. They took a bench test and used it to their advantage. Whether it translates into real world noticeable performance is unknown. It could be Valvoline is using a slightly better anti-wear additive, but what that actually translates to is really anyone's guess. It's marketing. Mobil 1 is going to be the target being the are the market leader. Royal Purple Falex Test, Amsoil 4-ball wear etc. are examples of using simple bench tests to claim performance gains.
And those test perform well because of extreme pressure additives(used in grease and gear lubes) added to their oil. M1 says EP additives are not necessary in engine oil and can actually cause internal corrision. Most modern oils do not use them.
I always wondered if EP adds would be good for camshaft protection?
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Comparing M1 to Valvoline is an insult to M1.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I'm don't know about the test but recent UOA's suggest Mobil has recently gutted the add pack in Mobil 1 HM, so I'm not surprised.
I imagine Valvoline must be able to back it up or Mobil would have them in court very quickly.
KC, can you please provide the link to this article? I am sure this will make for some good reading information. Thanks.
I'm don't know about the test but recent UOA's suggest Mobil has recently gutted the add pack in Mobil 1 HM, so I'm not surprised.
I imagine Valvoline must be able to back it up or Mobil would have them in court very quickly.
KC, can you please provide the link to this article? I am sure this will make for some good reading information. Thanks.
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Especially since the oil is still A3/B3.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I am sure this will make for some good reading information.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I am sure this will make for some good reading information.
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I'm don't know about the test but recent UOA's suggest Mobil has recently gutted the add pack in Mobil 1 HM, so I'm not surprised.
I imagine Valvoline must be able to back it up or Mobil would have them in court very quickly.
KC, can you please provide the link to this article? I am sure this will make for some good reading information. Thanks.
They didn't gut anything lol they are just using a more modern additive system with less Ca and using the Mg/Ca combo.
Mobil 1 uses the best base oils in the market - III/IV and V.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I'm don't know about the test but recent UOA's suggest Mobil has recently gutted the add pack in Mobil 1 HM, so I'm not surprised.
I imagine Valvoline must be able to back it up or Mobil would have them in court very quickly.
KC, can you please provide the link to this article? I am sure this will make for some good reading information. Thanks.
They didn't gut anything lol they are just using a more modern additive system with less Ca and using the Mg/Ca combo.
Mobil 1 uses the best base oils in the market - III/IV and V.
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Comparing M1 to Valvoline is an insult to M1.
Uh oh, them sound like fighting words.
Comparing M1 to Valvoline is an insult to M1.
Uh oh, them sound like fighting words.
"Yep, you've got the truest post on this thread so far....
My employer has a fleet of about 10 trucks. The drivers of each truck are supposed to watch the mileage of the truck they drive and then have a local mom-and-pop service station change the oil. However, the mileage quite often gets to be well over 10K before they have the service done. Then, when the service is done, the trucks get the cheapest NAPA ProSelect filter installed (that the mom-and-pop store purchased because of price) and the dino oil that goes into the trucks comes out of a bulk 55 gallon drum.
A lot of these trucks have 250K miles without ever an engine problem and a lot of the miles are on rural gravel road that can get quite dusty.
The bickering here between M1, Valvoline, and Brand X here is laughable.
BTW, two trucks were replaced in the last month because the beds of the old trucks were rusted out. If I can manage to snag them, I'll cut open some of the factory filters that come on the new Ford trucks.....after they've been driven about 10K miles."
Kruse makes the most sense to me. The fleet trucks have run well for many miles with conventional oil and filters, and there's been no engine failures. Some trucks were replaced only because of beds rusted out.
My employer has a fleet of about 10 trucks. The drivers of each truck are supposed to watch the mileage of the truck they drive and then have a local mom-and-pop service station change the oil. However, the mileage quite often gets to be well over 10K before they have the service done. Then, when the service is done, the trucks get the cheapest NAPA ProSelect filter installed (that the mom-and-pop store purchased because of price) and the dino oil that goes into the trucks comes out of a bulk 55 gallon drum.
A lot of these trucks have 250K miles without ever an engine problem and a lot of the miles are on rural gravel road that can get quite dusty.
The bickering here between M1, Valvoline, and Brand X here is laughable.
BTW, two trucks were replaced in the last month because the beds of the old trucks were rusted out. If I can manage to snag them, I'll cut open some of the factory filters that come on the new Ford trucks.....after they've been driven about 10K miles."
Kruse makes the most sense to me. The fleet trucks have run well for many miles with conventional oil and filters, and there's been no engine failures. Some trucks were replaced only because of beds rusted out.
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