Castrol 0W-30 Belgium vs Castrol 0W-40 German

[Pesca]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: pesca

Wear protection before piston cleanliness.

Could we get piston cleanliness by shortening the intervals (not pushing the OCI too much)?

Go for a 0W40.
Piston cleanliness is really a high temperature issue. shortening drain won't really do much. In any case the difference,if any, is tiny here as they are so similar


Ok, thanks for the advice.

Since I am not hard on the engine, I never run the engine at high temperature anyway.
I will plug my scangauge on the car and see what readings I can get with it, either oil temp, oil pressure or both.

 

[glxpassat]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Castrol 0W-30 and 40 GC and BC are all PAO


Do you know if M1 0w-40 is PAO also?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Your point about not knowing about curves means you disagree with your view on VI too.

No, the viscosity advantage with PAOs vs GP IIIs only applies at very cold temp's as the temp's approach an oils PP with GP III oils viscosity/temp' curves become increasingly more parabolic vs PAOs.

I'll give an example I'm familiar with:
M1 AFE 0W-20 which is at least partly PAO based has a MRV @-40 of 9,200cP, a CCS @-35C of 4110cP and a 173 VI.
The GP III+ based Sustina 0W-20 has a MRV of 9,630cP, a CCS @-35C of 3550cP and a 229 VI.
Sustina has a projected KV0 50% lighter than M1 based on their KV40/100 spec's.

As one can see Sustina has a 5% heavier MRV but as the temp's warm up only 5 degrees C it's already 14% lighter in terms of it's CCS. GP III oils simply hit the wall harder than PAOs at extremely cold temp's. At less extremely cold temp's a PAOs viscosity advantages quickly disappear.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: glxpassat
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Castrol 0W-30 and 40 GC and BC are all PAO


Do you know if M1 0w-40 is PAO also?

The current M1 SN 0W-40 is GP III based.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Your point about not knowing about curves means you disagree with your view on VI too.

No, the viscosity advantage with PAOs vs GP IIIs only applies at very cold temp's as the temp's approach an oils PP with GP III oils viscosity/temp' curves become increasingly more parabolic vs PAOs.

I'll give an example I'm familiar with:
M1 AFE 0W-20 which is at least partly PAO based has a MRV @-40 of 9,200cP, a CCS @-35C of 4110cP and a 173 VI.
The GP III+ based Sustina 0W-20 has a MRV of 9,630cP, a CCS @-35C of 3550cP and a 229 VI.
Sustina has a projected KV0 50% lighter than M1 based on their KV40/100 spec's.

As one can see Sustina has a 5% heavier MRV but as the temp's warm up only 5 degrees C it's already 14% lighter in terms of it's CCS. GP III oils simply hit the wall harder than PAOs at extremely cold temp's. At less extremely cold temp's a PAOs viscosity advantages quickly disappear.

Do you really think CCS and VI are linked ?

You mention the kv0 will be lower due to vi. The kv40s are also very different here. Having a higher kv40 or kv0. (Or a lower kv100) isn't always a bad thing.

I

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Each step up of 5C usually doubles the CCS. I'm sure you can do the math to know a 0W will have a lower CCS at -20.

The fact that it doesn't always double makes it an unreliable gauge particularly when comparing PAO and GP III oils which have different viscosity/temp' curves.
Yes I've done the math


Am very interested in the techniques that you use, particularly, as you state there is great disparity between what GrIII and IV do below freezing, making the usual Viscosity calculators worse than useless.





My technique to guess viscosity? I don't guess I measure them. I'll see what generic stuff I can share tomorrow

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

Do you really think CCS and VI are linked ?

I don't think they are linked per se, but if an oil's viscosity at 0C is very low due to it's VI that certainly gives it a base line advantage as the temp's drop further even if the oil's rate of thickening starts to increase vs a lower VI PAO based oil or one with a higher level of PPDs.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro

You mention the kv0 will be lower due to vi. The kv40s are also very different here. Having a higher kv40 or kv0. (Or a lower kv100) isn't always a bad thing.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say but I'll assume you're implying that a lower VI oil is not always a bad thing.

Firstly I think a better phrase to the word "bad" would be "less advantageous" and I would disagree with that because a higher VI is always more advantageous to a lower VI base oil; that is after all the main difference between a GP II and a GP III oil.

When it comes to finished oils, a higher VI is still always better assuming that the formulation of the higher VI oil has not made any significant compromises in terms of volatility and shear stability in the process. Traditionally that has always been the main criticism of higher VI oils; inferior shear stability. So to make a successful high VI oil without these potential drawbacks requires the use of higher quality base oils and additives. Or to put another way, it's simply easier and cheaper to formulate an oil if you're less concerned with the VI of the finished oil.

 

[bobbydavro]

If you want high VI you can use group II base oils with a PMA. However you will sacrifice piston cleanliness.

Base oils other than esters don't really help VI, you won't get much past 150 with Grp III or IV, and esters have their own issues and potential anti wear compromises.

There are so many factors of oil performance that simple can't be seen in a Virgin oil analysis.

Higher ppd levels don't help either, you need the right type and the right treat. Too much ppd will decrease cold flow performance.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
If you want high VI you can use group II base oils with a PMA. However you will sacrifice piston cleanliness.

We're not talking about what's possible but rather actual finished oils that already exist in the market place.
The fact is that the big driver for high VI oils is from the auto manufacturer's not so much in the aftermarket.
Secondarily, the most advanced race oils are high VI.

 

[Shannow]

CATERHAM, focus please, this isn't a discussion about high VI racing oils...

You were going to explain to us the numerical methods by which you "run the numbers"...please.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
If you want high VI you can use group II base oils with a PMA. However you will sacrifice piston cleanliness.

We're not talking about what's possible but rather actual finished oils that already exist in the market place.
The fact is that the big driver for high VI oils is from the auto manufacturer's not so much in the aftermarket.
Secondarily, the most advanced race oils are high VI.


You were talking about high VI meaning a need for high quality base oil, this is wrong. And I provided an example of why

Only the Japanese care for VI. None of the European OEMs care for VI. VI literally tells you nothing about an oils performance. It has no impact of cold flow either

Race oils are not advanced. They are developed very quickly and have no where the development, or testing, of a top tier engine oil.

 

[CATERHAM]

The "example" you've provided is hypothetical which isn't an actual example of an actual oil sold in the market place at all.

Really the European OEMs don't care about high VI? I guess you don't consider M1 0W-40 with it's 185-188 VI which is the FF of a number of European OEMs a high VI oil? Well they do.

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Race oils are not advanced. They are developed very quickly and have no where the development, or testing, of a top tier engine oil.

Now you're just being silly, as there is nothing more advanced than the lubricants used in top league auto racing where cost is of little concern.
Cosworth explained in an article in RaceCar Engineering a few years ago that the single biggest factor that allowed for the development of the 21,000 rpm NA F1 engine was due to advances in the engine oils that were used.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The "example" you've provided is hypothetical which isn't an actual example of an actual oil sold in the market place at all.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Cosworth explained in an article in RaceCar Engineering a few years ago that the single biggest factor that allowed for the development of the 21,000 rpm NA F1 engine was due to advances in the engine oils that were used.

 

[bobbydavro]

No OEM has any interest in VI in their specifications.

They have many engine test to cover their needs so don't rely of numbers (unlike here). Also PMAs used in 0W type oils tend to have low VM treats. Making a 0W-40 with PMA would have big issues with piston merit, oxidation and deposit tests.

Mobil is a bit higher than most as the like to use alkalayted napolenes. A result of this is high VI. And why would an OEM (read MB as they are one of the few using Mobil) care about VI in factory fill?!

Whilst I don't work in motorsport, I've seen many race formulations. They often are very thin. Based on normal add packs but at lower treats for power and don't often stay together for every long. To be honest a lot of the development is 'trial and error' with dyno testing, rather than a 3yr $5m development like VW 504 507

You are a consumer with a little bit of interest in engine oils yet think you are an expert. The fact you mix oils seems to suggest you think you know more about this than people who develop engine oils. I only look at VOA to check an oil is in spec. There is no way to assess how it works in an engine.

You certainly can't suggest oil applications based on running temperate and viscosity at that temperature like suggested. As I've said before. 300+ VI oils haven't showed benefits in reality. Remember VI is only looking at two temperatures. (Some polymers result in thinning 60-80C). These two temperatures measure the flow of oil under gravity in a thin tube. vERY different to the conditions in an engine. No where in an engine does oil experience this shear rate and pressure except when it drains back to the sump...

So basically you judge oils performance on two lately irrelevant numbers. Shall we call you Bob?

 

[bobbydavro]

Oh and my group 2 example isn't hypothetical. In any case many high VI 0W-20s are all group 3. No need for esters or PAO

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Oh and my group 2 example isn't hypothetical. In any case many high VI 0W-20s are all group 3. No need for esters or PAO


TGMO, according the Mobil PDS, being an example of that

 

[Falcon_LS]

Interesting results.

An offtopic question - if it's made in Germany, why is it "not for sale in Germany"? Is something else different, other than the packaging?

 

[bobbydavro]

Who said its not for sale in Germany?

Castrol dont have a blend plant in every country

 

[slo town]

OP here:

It says right on the label "Not For Sale Outside The Americas". If anyone doubts me I will post a picture.

Falcon, your question was a good one and did not deviate from the original topic.

Scott

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
OP here:

It says right on the label "Not For Sale Outside The Americas". If anyone doubts me I will post a picture.

Falcon, your question was a good one and did not deviate from the original topic.

Scott


I imagine it would be due to the English packaging.