ISIS

[KevGuy]

Care to elaborate? Carpet bomb the entire place or just nuke the [censored] out it?

Originally Posted By: Stelth
Originally Posted By: KevGuy
What should the west/NATO do about them?



Kill them.

 

[Azeem]

Originally Posted By: KevGuy
Care to elaborate? Carpet bomb the entire place or just nuke the [censored] out it?


What about civilians ?

 

[LoneRanger]

The manifesto of ISIS is rooted in the "teachings" of Muhammad ibn Abd-al Wahhab of the late 1800's. Nothing to do with assorted anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

 

[Stelth]

Originally Posted By: KevGuy
Care to elaborate? Carpet bomb the entire place or just nuke the [censored] out it?

Originally Posted By: Stelth
Originally Posted By: KevGuy
What should the west/NATO do about them?



Kill them.


This isn't a country-vs.-country war. Carpet bombing was primarily a technique developed by the Brits during WWII to try to keep their bomber pilots alive. If you were to try to carpet bomb ISIS, either most of your bombs would fall in uninhabited desert, or worse, fall in civilian areas. Nukes are kind of the ultimate carpet bomb.

As far as how to win against ISIS, I don't know specific techniques, but our military does. Also, I'm hopeful that middle eastern people and governments will rise up against them because of their indiscriminate violence.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: KevGuy
What should the west/NATO do about them?

For starters, the State Department should stop funding them. And arming them. And training them. And providing intelligence and material support to them.

It's funny to see the administration waffle around and play dumb about this issue. They know what they're doing - ISIL IS THEIR OWN CREATION.

 

[Smokescreen]

Every extremist group that has been an issue for freedom the past 20+ years has originally been funded by "world police" govts at one time or another to perform a purpose. Then the extremist group falls out of line with the status quo for one reason or another and they are now the enemy. Someone please say that they too see a pattern here?

There needs to be a stop to the "world police" agenda and clean up our own back yards.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird

Don't also forget who ignored dozens of warnings about 9/11 and failed to catch or even get close OBL.


Well, in old Bill's defense, he had a chubby intern on his mind.

 

[97tbird]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I'm guessing that the mods are monitoring these threads about
Putin, and ISIS..

I don;t think so. There are MANY comments in this thread and other threads that should have been deleted and /or have led to a lock.
IF they're monitoring, then their bias is showing, sadly.

 

[spasm3]

If discussions can continue based on facts and not get personal or ugly, perhaps the thread will stand.

 

[hattaresguy]

I guess we can talk politics now?

ISIS is what we get for getting rid of Saddam. Now we have to deal with the consequences of getting involved in the middle east.

We will have troops on the ground by the end of the year watch.

 

[dave1251]

"Troops" have been on the ground in Iraq for some time now. ISIS was not the result of the downfall of the Saddam regime. An movement the size and force of ISIS does not just crop up. This whole extremism has been brewing for decades literally. It was just oppressed by rulers via genocide and not allowing the masses to be educated. Once the internet allowed the common man to actually see the world outside their small realm of existence it was like providing Proto-Human farming, metal tools, fire, language, and the printing press over night.

Stating that ISIS is the result of the toppling the Baath party is like saying German aristocratic government in WWI was the sole reason that nationalism, fascism, and the NAZI party rise of power in Germany. Movements of this scale take time to gain traction and any number of events causes their rise to power. There is no single cause. ISIS may have gained enough traction once Saddam ran out of sarin gas.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I guess we can talk politics now?

ISIS is what we get for getting rid of Saddam. Now we have to deal with the consequences of getting involved in the middle east.

We will have troops on the ground by the end of the year watch.


Yes, thank the neo cons for where we are now.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
"Troops" have been on the ground in Iraq for some time now. ISIS was not the result of the downfall of the Saddam regime. An movement the size and force of ISIS does not just crop up. This whole extremism has been brewing for decades literally. It was just oppressed by rulers via genocide and not allowing the masses to be educated. Once the internet allowed the common man to actually see the world outside their small realm of existence it was like providing Proto-Human farming, metal tools, fire, language, and the printing press over night.

Stating that ISIS is the result of the toppling the Baath party is like saying German aristocratic government in WWI was the sole reason that nationalism, fascism, and the NAZI party rise of power in Germany. Movements of this scale take time to gain traction and any number of events causes their rise to power. There is no single cause. ISIS may have gained enough traction once Saddam ran out of sarin gas.


Toppling dictators who kept various factions in check creates a power vacuum. In this case, the ISIS leadership have managed to rally enough committed people to their singular beliefs and objectives.

The video that was published was very educational. For many, a group like ISIS is very attractive and even for average citizens, they may be the best choice given the alternatives.

In history, we have seen many times the rise of powerful non democratic leaders such as Lenin, Hitler, Mao Zedong who have all had popular appeal through a combination of rhetoric and doing and promising something for the common people. The Caliph of the IS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, appears to be doing something similar.

 

[dave1251]

Of course toppling Dictators creates a power vacuum. The toppling is caused by outside influences directly overthrowing the Dictators, or revolution, the death of the Dictator, or even the Dictator decides to resign. Iraq would have the same problems it is experiencing now once the Baath party was removed from power. At least there is no nuclear weapons in play.

What is distributing is the knee jerk reactions and wanting to place blame rather than man up and become part of the solution. Americans should remember our history once you topple a regime you have to stay for the long haul. I do not recall Americans leaving Germany and Japan after removing their respective Dictators.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: dave1251


What is distributing is the knee jerk reactions and wanting to place blame rather than man up and become part of the solution. Americans should remember our history once you topple a regime you have to stay for the long haul. I do not recall Americans leaving Germany and Japan after removing their respective Dictators.


The problem with that angle is that with the Middle East we are dealing with cultures and values that are indeed alien to our own in almost every way, even the Japanese share some similar traits to Western societies. I'm not just talking about Muslim and Arab nations but also the Zionist country of Israel as well and Ashkanazi Judaism. Their Talmud is every bit as vicious in its remedies for their enemies, as is the Quran, if not more so.

That is also the problem with globalism. We cannot be the
worlds's police force, or nation builders for that matter, our own Founding Fathers did NOT want that at all! If they were able to witness what our gov't has been doing the past 60 years I'd say they'd be shocked, and disgusted that we have not followed their
wise advice. If anything we should lead by example with our internal affairs, and let other nations (if they wish to, not be forced into) emulate our way of doing things at home. Unfortunately our own country is now riddled with serious and possibly devastating problems of our own, and other countries can see that today.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: Azeem
Originally Posted By: KevGuy
Care to elaborate? Carpet bomb the entire place or just nuke the [censored] out it?


What about civilians ?


What about OUR civilians??

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
"Troops" have been on the ground in Iraq for some time now. ISIS was not the result of the downfall of the Saddam regime. An movement the size and force of ISIS does not just crop up. This whole extremism has been brewing for decades literally. It was just oppressed by rulers via genocide and not allowing the masses to be educated. Once the internet allowed the common man to actually see the world outside their small realm of existence it was like providing Proto-Human farming, metal tools, fire, language, and the printing press over night.

Stating that ISIS is the result of the toppling the Baath party is like saying German aristocratic government in WWI was the sole reason that nationalism, fascism, and the NAZI party rise of power in Germany. Movements of this scale take time to gain traction and any number of events causes their rise to power. There is no single cause. ISIS may have gained enough traction once Saddam ran out of sarin gas.


It may have happened eventually. But with a leader like Saddam keeping his fist on them it might not have.

Instead we march in, destabilize the country, dismiss the ruling party and military, than fight them for a decade, kill lots of people as wars tend to do, and we get the ISIS.

Invading Iraq with our countries current lack of military resolve was a large mistake, compounded by a botched occupation.

If I were a gambler I would have bet on Saddam keeping this ISIS in check longer than we did.

Now our only option is to either ignore it, or deploy another 100k troops for another decade.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: dave1251


What is distributing is the knee jerk reactions and wanting to place blame rather than man up and become part of the solution. Americans should remember our history once you topple a regime you have to stay for the long haul. I do not recall Americans leaving Germany and Japan after removing their respective Dictators.


The problem with that angle is that with the Middle East we are dealing with cultures and values that are indeed alien to our own in almost every way, even the Japanese share some similar traits to Western societies. I'm not just talking about Muslim and Arab nations but also the Zionist country of Israel as well and Ashkanazi Judaism. Their Talmud is every bit as vicious in its remedies for their enemies, as is the Quran, if not more so.

That is also the problem with globalism. We cannot be the
worlds's police force, or nation builders for that matter, our own Founding Fathers did NOT want that at all! If they were able to witness what our gov't has been doing the past 60 years I'd say they'd be shocked, and disgusted that we have not followed their
wise advice. If anything we should lead by example with our internal affairs, and let other nations (if they wish to, not be forced into) emulate our way of doing things at home. Unfortunately our own country is now riddled with serious and possibly devastating problems of our own, and other countries can see that today.


Really the people in the middle east are not a lot different than you and I we all live in 50 shades of gray a lot of "western" concepts were born in the middle east.

As for our founding fathers they had tremendous foresight yet I do not imagine they foresaw a world in which political leaders literally had the power to destroy humanity at their finger tips or the actions of the East Indies would directly affect the American economy and the world would become such a spiderweb of ties that depends on each thread to function and thrive.

Our founding fathers definitely did not imagine two men would discuss their differences in near instantaneous time across the Continent.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: dave1251
"Troops" have been on the ground in Iraq for some time now. ISIS was not the result of the downfall of the Saddam regime. An movement the size and force of ISIS does not just crop up. This whole extremism has been brewing for decades literally. It was just oppressed by rulers via genocide and not allowing the masses to be educated. Once the internet allowed the common man to actually see the world outside their small realm of existence it was like providing Proto-Human farming, metal tools, fire, language, and the printing press over night.

Stating that ISIS is the result of the toppling the Baath party is like saying German aristocratic government in WWI was the sole reason that nationalism, fascism, and the NAZI party rise of power in Germany. Movements of this scale take time to gain traction and any number of events causes their rise to power. There is no single cause. ISIS may have gained enough traction once Saddam ran out of sarin gas.


Toppling dictators who kept various factions in check creates a power vacuum. In this case, the ISIS leadership have managed to rally enough committed people to their singular beliefs and objectives.

The video that was published was very educational. For many, a group like ISIS is very attractive and even for average citizens, they may be the best choice given the alternatives.

In history, we have seen many times the rise of powerful non democratic leaders such as Lenin, Hitler, Mao Zedong who have all had popular appeal through a combination of rhetoric and doing and promising something for the common people. The Caliph of the IS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, appears to be doing something similar.


Pretty much, ISIS is pulling it out of Mao and Lenin's playbook.

We created a massive power vacuum when Saddam fell and for a long time it was filled with our military. As we pulled out it was replaced by a very weak Iraq central government and a more or less useless Iraq military.

ISIS used this as a chance to gain power, and a lot of regular Iraq's are probably feed up with the fighting as well so their seems to be a decent amount of moderate support.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: dave1251


What is distributing is the knee jerk reactions and wanting to place blame rather than man up and become part of the solution. Americans should remember our history once you topple a regime you have to stay for the long haul. I do not recall Americans leaving Germany and Japan after removing their respective Dictators.


The problem with that angle is that with the Middle East we are dealing with cultures and values that are indeed alien to our own in almost every way, even the Japanese share some similar traits to Western societies. I'm not just talking about Muslim and Arab nations but also the Zionist country of Israel as well and Ashkanazi Judaism. Their Talmud is every bit as vicious in its remedies for their enemies, as is the Quran, if not more so.

That is also the problem with globalism. We cannot be the
worlds's police force, or nation builders for that matter, our own Founding Fathers did NOT want that at all! If they were able to witness what our gov't has been doing the past 60 years I'd say they'd be shocked, and disgusted that we have not followed their
wise advice. If anything we should lead by example with our internal affairs, and let other nations (if they wish to, not be forced into) emulate our way of doing things at home. Unfortunately our own country is now riddled with serious and possibly devastating problems of our own, and other countries can see that today.


Well said.