So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Bud
I have been changing my own oil and filters for 51 years. The first 40 of those I used the OCOD as my filter. Used all kinds of oil, and mixed oils as well. I can't believe I am still alive. I mean, I probably should have been taken out by an exploding engine or something. I guess I was just living on the edge. But gotta say, I do love this forum.


Thank God you switched in time! You could have been killed! There is a reason they are called the orange can of D E A T H...

 

[Cristobal]

I have no Frams in my stash right now except for a single Extended Guard that is yet to be used.

I have run Tough Guards to 10,000 miles and Extra Guards to 8000 miles. Since 1971 I have driven maybe 1,250,000 miles in personal and company cars. At least 40 of the filters used were Frams of one kind or another. I have never had a Fram filter fail, and that says a little.

 

[wrf01a]

I use Fram Ultra on my Honda and my Toyota. My Ford Ranger has had Fram Extra Guard on it since I bought it in 1995. Not one issue.

My Sonata uses a Hyundai Filter

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: bammer5609
That is exactly why Fram uses them, they are cheaper, and when you manufacture millions of them, that is a lot of money saved. Is it a bad thing, nope, they seem to work just fine. As I said, I never meant anything toward Brian, I am just saying that just because a person sees something that they do not like dose not make the end product they are looking at any worse then any other similar product.


You are right that FRAM's construction is cheaper.

But at retail, FRAM oil filters are not the least expensive option out there.

That has always been the discussion surrounding the FRAM OCOD.

You could always buy a more substantially constructed oil filter for less.

 

[itguy08]

I'll add my $0.02....

Don't get the hang up with fiber caps. It works, it's the same material that is used in the filter so if it holds up there, why won't it hold up in the end caps. Think about flow in the filter - outside to inside. Makes sense that the end caps are of little consequence. It also seems to help avoid tears.

The "they use metal on the Ultra" makes 0 sense too as the Ultra uses wire backed media. Wire would blow right through fiber...

Cheap construction. SO? They are marketed as a 3-5k filter. They hold up fine for that. Why pay more for "superior" construction for such a short period of time. As long as it holds up under those parameters what's the deal?

I'd be more concerned about actual performance than the other nonsense in this (and other) threads. If the filter has great efficiency and lasts how long it should, who cares how it's built? It's doing its job!

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6

That has always been the discussion surrounding the FRAM OCOD.

You could always buy a more substantially constructed oil filter for less.


Like what? A WIX that is built better that filters with less efficiency? A Purolator that is built better but likes to tear? An off brand or store brand that may be made by different manufacturers each day?

The only one that comes to mind as a great value is Motorcraft but they don't fit everything.

 

[jrustles]

Excellent case Brian

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
In an earlier post, I mentioned the use of the thin cardboard endcaps as alignment for the media and ADBV. I've added some pics below to illustrate the points.

Here is a pic of the inside of a baseplate used on a Fram Extra Guard filter. The Tough Guard is the same. The baseplate has no features to align the ADBV relative to the inlet holes. In this Fram design, the alignment of the ADBV is controlled solely by the media's position within the can.

Here is a pic of the media inside the can, in this case a Tough Guard. The only features locating the media (and therefore the ADBV) are the tips of the thin cardboard endcaps. These endcaps are thin, weak, and very easily bent.

Here is a pic of the ADBV on top of the base. The Tough Guard is the same shape made from silicone. Since the ADBV is not held securely by the base plate, I moved it slightly off center to highlight the importance of ADBV positioning. You can see light through one of the inlet holes (red arrow).

If the condition pictured below occurs inside the filter, two undesirable things occur. The ADBV leaks , and a portion of the oil bypasses the filter media.

Here's a pic better illustrating the amount of misalignment of the ADBV in the previous picture. This amount of misalignment is probably less than 0.1”. I'm not certain if the Fram design will permit this much misalignment.

Here's a picture of the type of ADBV alignment used in other filters. The steel ring in the center of the baseplate serves to locate both the ADBV and media within the can.

In my view, the particulars illustrated above are part of why Frams get a “bad rap”. I've used Fram filters like those pictured above over the years. In some applications I had noticably more start-up noise. That suggests to me that the ADBV was less than optimum since other filters did not exhibit the same behavior.

Your results may vary.

I have had nothing but good performance from the Ultra Guard and (now) Ultra Synthetic, which feature somewhat different construction.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: bammer5609
they are cheaper, and when you manufacture millions of them, that is a lot of money saved.


I hate to break it to you, but a key to successful business is to find the lowest bidder for materials.

Do you think WIX, M1, Purolator etc. uses some aviation grade alloy for their end caps? How about your car? Everything it is made of was supplied by the lowest bidder. The list goes on.

 

[Dallas69]

So true

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Excellent case Brian

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
In an earlier post, I mentioned the use of the thin cardboard endcaps as alignment for the media and ADBV. I've added some pics below to illustrate the points.

Here is a pic of the inside of a baseplate used on a Fram Extra Guard filter. The Tough Guard is the same. The baseplate has no features to align the ADBV relative to the inlet holes. In this Fram design, the alignment of the ADBV is controlled solely by the media's position within the can.




Here is a pic of the media inside the can, in this case a Tough Guard. The only features locating the media (and therefore the ADBV) are the tips of the thin cardboard endcaps. These endcaps are thin, weak, and very easily bent.




Here is a pic of the ADBV on top of the base. The Tough Guard is the same shape made from silicone. Since the ADBV is not held securely by the base plate, I moved it slightly off center to highlight the importance of ADBV positioning. You can see light through one of the inlet holes (red arrow).

If the condition pictured below occurs inside the filter, two undesirable things occur. The ADBV leaks , and a portion of the oil bypasses the filter media.

Here's a pic better illustrating the amount of misalignment of the ADBV in the previous picture. This amount of misalignment is probably less than 0.1”. I'm not certain if the Fram design will permit this much misalignment.

Here's a picture of the type of ADBV alignment used in other filters. The steel ring in the center of the baseplate serves to locate both the ADBV and media within the can.



In my view, the particulars illustrated above are part of why Frams get a “bad rap”. I've used Fram filters like those pictured above over the years. In some applications I had noticably more start-up noise. That suggests to me that the ADBV was less than optimum since other filters did not exhibit the same behavior.

Your results may vary.

I have had nothing but good performance from the Ultra Guard and (now) Ultra Synthetic, which feature somewhat different construction.




I don't believe a cut open picture of the ADBV is valid since the leaf spring pressing the end cap into the valve will make it fit tighter and probably seal a lot better.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis

I don't believe a cut open picture of the ADBV is valid since the leaf spring pressing the end cap into the valve will make it fit tighter and probably seal a lot better.


This is a good point, and I should have mentioned it. The force of the leaf spring will seal a poorly positioned ADBV to a greater degree than shown in my picture. I was illustrating a possible source (leaking ADBV) of the start-up noise I have experienced at times with Fram Extra Guard filters.

The source of the start-up noise could have been due to a different issue. Whatever the cause, it was reduced or eliminated by changing oil filters.

 

[dlundblad]

What did you go to after the Fram?

 

[Brian Barnhart]

AC Delco. This was some years back on a GM product. At that time, the Delco filters were US sourced and of obviously high quality. The last AC Delco filter I cut open a month or so ago was considerably different in construction. I haven't personally used AC Delco filters in the last few years.

I once had a Mobil 1 filter with start-up noise on a Ranger. Swapping it with a Motorcraft eliminated the noise. Not sure why the M1 was noisy. It was the first time I had any issue with one of them.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
What did you go to after the Fram?


A real oil filter...

Sorry...couldn't resist

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: SilverC6

That has always been the discussion surrounding the FRAM OCOD.

You could always buy a more substantially constructed oil filter for less.


Like what? A WIX that is built better that filters with less efficiency? A Purolator that is built better but likes to tear...

 

[SilverC6]

Koolaid drinkers never get it, they just parrot the mantra.

If the filter design is barely adequate, then build variation and poor QC (it happens) will result in filters that look good on paper but don't perform on the vehicle.

- A leaf spring instead of a coil spring
- Fiber end caps
- ADBV valve fit

Those are the items that Brian Barnhart discussed and illustrated very clearly in his photos.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Koolaid drinkers never get it, they just parrot the mantra.

If the filter design is barely adequate, then build variation and poor QC (it happens) will result in filters that look good on paper but don't perform on the vehicle.

- A leaf spring instead of a coil spring (Not really that big of a deal for me)
- Fiber end caps (Deal breaker)
- ADBV valve fit (Or lack their of)

Those are the items that Brian Barnhart discussed and illustrated very clearly in his photos.


+1. Good write up! FYI I added the comments in Red

 

[webfors]

Application, application, application.....

I'm now on Ultra's leaving them on for a year with AFE on my soob. Seems like a solid worry free plan

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Your second picture down shows why I will not use a fiber end cap Fram. At the 4:30 position you can see that the center tube is misaligned. This compromises the seal at that point. I've seen pictures and had one personally where the pleats had buckled and the end caps pulled down enough to show a definite leak at the bypass end. Some off center tubes don't seem to cause a problem and the marks from the ADBV or bypass piece show the seal may have been OK, some show the seal clearly compromised....

Excellent points. And this why when I see post use orange can or TG pics, the view(s) I want to see most is end caps from dome and adbv side with leaf spring/bypass and adbv removed, like the second pic. Many times those views are not shown.

Same as folks now want to see the Puro's at the seam pleat area.

FU in a different class with different construction.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Your second picture down shows why I will not use a fiber end cap Fram. At the 4:30 position you can see that the center tube is misaligned. This compromises the seal at that point. I've seen pictures and had one personally where the pleats had buckled and the end caps pulled down enough to show a definite leak at the bypass end. Some off center tubes don't seem to cause a problem and the marks from the ADBV or bypass piece show the seal may have been OK, some show the seal clearly compromised....

Excellent points. And this why when I see post use orange can or TG pics, the view(s) I want to see most is end caps from dome and adbv side with leaf spring/bypass and adbv removed, like the second pic. Many times those views are not shown.

Same as folks now want to see the Puro's at the seam pleat area.

FU in a different class with different construction.


Here's another example from a recently posted TG. Again, the 2nd picture shows exactly what I was talking about, with the media collapsing below the center tube. The design of the filter is that the end cap cover the center tube and serve as the gasket for the bypass/spring assembly and the ADBV.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3470963/Fram_TG3506_Cut_Open#Post3470963

Lots of "looks good", "great filter" comments in that thread. If you bought a head gasket and 20% was missing, would you think "great gasket"?

Ed

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Your second picture down shows why I will not use a fiber end cap Fram. At the 4:30 position you can see that the center tube is misaligned. This compromises the seal at that point. I've seen pictures and had one personally where the pleats had buckled and the end caps pulled down enough to show a definite leak at the bypass end. Some off center tubes don't seem to cause a problem and the marks from the ADBV or bypass piece show the seal may have been OK, some show the seal clearly compromised....

Excellent points. And this why when I see post use orange can or TG pics, the view(s) I want to see most is end caps from dome and adbv side with leaf spring/bypass and adbv removed, like the second pic. Many times those views are not shown.

Same as folks now want to see the Puro's at the seam pleat area.

FU in a different class with different construction.


Here's another example from a recently posted TG. Again, the 2nd picture shows exactly what I was talking about, with the media collapsing below the center tube. The design of the filter is that the end cap cover the center tube and serve as the gasket for the bypass/spring assembly and the ADBV.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3470963/Fram_TG3506_Cut_Open#Post3470963

Lots of "looks good", "great filter" comments in that thread. If you bought a head gasket and 20% was missing, would you think "great gasket"?

Ed


Can you describe better what you are seeing? When I look at the second pic I do not see collapsing media??