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#3414449 - 07/04/14 12:04 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Trajan]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7516
Loc: Colorado
Don't speak for me Trajan. I will speak for myself. I have not used Auto-RX in years. I gave my last two bottles away to a guy here at bobistheoilguy.com. Let me repeat in case you don't understand: I STOPPED USING AUTO-RX YEARS AGO! The next time you mention my name you be sure to include that.

You also mention SteveSRT8. Unlike you I am not going to try to talk for another person. But anybody can read SteveSRT8's reply above. He talked about the way he had been treated as an Auto-RX customer. He certainly does not seem very happy about how he was treated. Anybody can read what he said and draw his own conclusions.

Trav also talked about how he had been treated as an Auto-RX user. Trav is a professional mechanic in Germany and he has talked about how Kreen worked for him in cleaning some engines.

You talk about how wonderful Auto-RX is and put down other products. But you fail to mention the posters here who have had bad experiences with customer service after buying Auto-RX.

The next time you use my name to try to promote Auto-RX be sure to include I stopped using Auto-RX years ago.


Edited by Mystic (07/04/14 12:11 PM)

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#3414459 - 07/04/14 12:17 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Trajan]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 151
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Trav
If 10 people buy paint remover and it doesn't remove paint but it removed paint for one person those are not good odds.

If the instructions were simply, put this in with your oil, run it 3K then run anther oil change for 3K to wash it out and your done.
If it doesn't clean your engine or you are not satisfied we will give you your money back no questions asked and they stood by it i have no problem with it.

It never worked that way. Instead customers were abused, accused of not following directions, buying counterfeit product, lying or not even buying the product.



And despite it all, it has been proven to work.

Dnewton, who was a skeptic, showed it worked. With more data presented than I've ever seen for kreen/mmo.

Artem showed pics in which it worked better than kreen. Which led to you claiming he was a shill.

Mystic has posted over and over and over that it worked.

SteveSRT8 had posted that it takes care of everything. That it is miraculous. (Compared to mmo in the oil.)

simple_gifts, and Kuato have posted it works. And you go after the former for it.

To say nothing of the late Gary Allan.

Even Molakule has good things to say about it IIRC.

What further proof do you need?


Good point. I did my own homework, to back up why I keep reaching for MMO. What I did was counted people posting positively and negatively about MMO and rx. I found more positive about mmo and a lot less controversy. No science just a common sense approach. That plus price, my own observations, which I really don't care what anyone thinks about them keeps me using mmo. It seems anytime someone posts observations they risk a harpoon attack here. The compression results, I've seen a few threads showing mmo and rx have raised it.

Scientific data, good luck finding that. The only science I was able to dig up was mmo looks real good in UOA reports. Some see those as the Holy Grail, so it worked for me seeing mmo did well. Lets not forget long time posters using Kano products and mmo for 40 years or more. Why would they lie? Especially when there's nothing in it for them.

I also see there are some people with more credibility than others here dnewton is one Trav is another. Seeing Trav is an actual master mechanic I seem to lean toward him. Website hype, or test results posted on a site, baloney IMO. But hey that's just me, not dissing anyone, telling it like I see it.

Lastly people can build a case for mmo, rx, kreen, and risoline. If it works for you, use it. Enjoy the 4th.

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#3414599 - 07/04/14 03:02 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: rockydee]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3350
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: rockydee

Scientific data, good luck finding that.


Data doesn't have to be scientific. But, making statements like "I get 2mpg more after using mmo" doesn't mean very much without some mpg readings before using it, during its use, and after its use.

Some people complain about those who want to see before and after compression tests, they moan about an unknown compression tester being used. (Unknown to them, but they ignore that.)

But they'll take claims out of thin air, or butt dynos of unknown quality at the drop of a hat.

As one poster stated, (not me), "This is BITOG. In God we trust, all others must bring data."

But people would rather accept anecdotes. (But only ones they agree with.)

As for "website hype" that can apply to *any* claim made by people on a website.


Edited by Trajan (07/04/14 03:10 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3414646 - 07/04/14 04:20 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Trajan]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 151
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: rockydee

Scientific data, good luck finding that.


Data doesn't have to be scientific. But, making statements like "I get 2mpg more after using mmo" doesn't mean very much without some mpg readings before using it, during its use, and after its use.

Some people complain about those who want to see before and after compression tests, they moan about an unknown compression tester being used. (Unknown to them, but they ignore that.)

But they'll take claims out of thin air, or butt dynos of unknown quality at the drop of a hat.

As one poster stated, (not me), "This is BITOG. In God we trust, all others must bring data."

But people would rather accept anecdotes. (But only ones they agree with.)

As for "website hype" that can apply to *any* claim made by people on a website.


I looked at data in the form of uoa, just for [censored] and giggles, and mmo did well. I already knew it from my own anecdotal evidence, and those of others. I see guys like Trav, SteveStr8, and a few others posting negatively, and then taking harpoon attacks, being called liars etc it gets me thinking, and wanting to investigate more. After doing so, I'm going to stick to mmo.

As far as Mystic, I consider him one of the guys who changed their mind about a product. That happens, I could have sworn I read somewhere you posted positively about mmo at some point. If I'm wrong, sorry. You changed your mind it happens, and I see nothing wrong with it. Some people change their minds because of a companies policy and how they treat their customers, that doesn't make them bad. Maybe that's what changed mystic's mind, and he found cheaper products [because of the reports others posted here] to do as, good as or a better job than rx.

Like I said if you like a product use it. But don't rain on someone else's parade or discredit them for their pov, or because they changed their mind. [censored] I changed my mind more than once, am I a bad guy? lol

BTW I don't read much into mpg claims either, so we agree there. I do believe my eyes and ears though. When I look down the ole fill hole and see an improvement, or don't here a lifter tick, tick, ticking, I'm a believer. Now does someone else have to believe me, I really don't care.


Edited by rockydee (07/04/14 04:26 PM)

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#3414745 - 07/04/14 07:21 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Trajan]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9970
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
How about i got more MPG at idle.
Yep some poster actually tried to sell that one based on the cars instant MPG gauge. Why don't you look up who that was and question him about his MPG claims. LOL

At least this guy is claiming he got 2 MPG improvement while actually driving the car.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3414769 - 07/04/14 08:04 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Trav]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 151
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Trav
How about i got more MPG at idle.
Yep some poster actually tried to sell that one based on the cars instant MPG gauge. Why don't you look up who that was and question him about his MPG claims. LOL



Lol is that the same as more mpg coasting with the engine off, then braggin about it? I read some pretty cool stuff here, like driving at 4000 rpm+ for 20 mins or something like that to clean up a DI engine. Tough to do in most areas, and I wouldn't want to do it with an auto trans in a lower gear for that long, but what do I know. lol


Edited by rockydee (07/04/14 08:19 PM)

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#3414797 - 07/04/14 08:42 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: rockydee]
mkosem Offline


Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 782
Loc: OH, US
Originally Posted By: rockydee
Originally Posted By: Trav
How about i got more MPG at idle.
Yep some poster actually tried to sell that one based on the cars instant MPG gauge. Why don't you look up who that was and question him about his MPG claims. LOL



Lol is that the same as more mpg coasting with the engine off, then braggin about it? I read some pretty cool stuff here, like driving at 4000 rpm+ for 20 mins or something like that to clean up a DI engine. Tough to do in most areas, and I wouldn't want to do it with an auto trans in a lower gear for that long, but what do I know. lol


Not sure why it would be difficult to hold 4000rpm anywhere that consistent speeds can be maintained, provided the vehicle has some sort of gear selector.

The 3000rpm (not 4000rpm) carbon deposit removal detail is not a myth, and is actually in patent documentation that VW published (see here on the US patent site).

Quote:
An additional approach for reducing the formation of carbon deposits on the intake valves is to increase the intake valve temperature, at least temporarily, since, surprisingly, it was found that any carbon deposits possibly present are removed at temperatures above 380.degree. C. To this end, the intake valve unit, which comprises, among other components, the intake valves and the valve stem guide, is designed with means that hinder heat dissipation in such a way that increased surface temperatures of more than 380.degree. C. develop at least in the area of the neck of the intake valves in at least one predetermined region of the load characteristic diagram of the internal combustion engine. This is illustrated in FIG. 4. The intake valve temperature is above 380.degree. C. in the shaded region 112b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves are removed. This region 112b of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range. extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region 112b during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal in the shaded region 112b of the characteristic diagram occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region 112b of the characteristic diagram for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves sufficiently. In addition, this region of the characteristic diagram can be entered in the course of maintenance or repair work on the internal combustion engine in an automotive workshop.


--Matt


Edited by mkosem (07/04/14 08:46 PM)

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#3414804 - 07/04/14 08:50 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: mkosem]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 151
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: mkosem
Originally Posted By: rockydee
Originally Posted By: Trav
How about i got more MPG at idle.
Yep some poster actually tried to sell that one based on the cars instant MPG gauge. Why don't you look up who that was and question him about his MPG claims. LOL



Lol is that the same as more mpg coasting with the engine off, then braggin about it? I read some pretty cool stuff here, like driving at 4000 rpm+ for 20 mins or something like that to clean up a DI engine. Tough to do in most areas, and I wouldn't want to do it with an auto trans in a lower gear for that long, but what do I know. lol


Not sure why it would be difficult to hold 4000rpm anywhere that consistent speeds can be maintained, provided the vehicle has some sort of gear selector.

The 3000rpm (not 4000rpm) carbon deposit removal detail is not a myth, and is actually in patent documentation that VW published (see here on the US patent site).

--Matt


I'm just stating what I read on bitog, it was 4K or 4K+ not 3K. Holding the legal limit @ 4K with an auto trans in a low gear to keep it legal for 20 mins isn't something I'd want to where I'm living. Seems others felt the same. OTOH holding 3k would be pretty easy.

Oops- it was 4,500 rpm that makes it harder. The quote was in one of the DI threads, I can't find it after closing bitog to let my daughter on the laptop.

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral


Is there any accepted preventative for these deposits, other than frequent oil changes with a low-NOACK, carmaker-approved oil?


Yes, keeping the RPMs above 4500 for 20+min every now and again to help prevent and clean.

Prevention is aided with regular injector cleaning, running premium oil and not changing the oil too often.


I think I took this a bit OT. Sorry


Edited by rockydee (07/04/14 09:05 PM)

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#3414940 - 07/04/14 11:56 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: mkosem]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9970
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
So why is VW/Audi still doing the walnut shell blasting?
You can patent anything you like but that doesn't mean it works.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3414946 - 07/05/14 12:07 AM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Trav]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 151
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Trav
So why is VW/Audi still doing the walnut shell blasting?
You can patent anything you like but that doesn't mean it works.


Because their 3000 rpm runs don't always work.

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#3415020 - 07/05/14 06:07 AM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: rockydee]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9970
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
It might work on some valves but not on all. Stuff like this is not a one size fits all solution, if it was then there would be no problems.

A simple 20 min run at 3K RPM and its all set. No its not working like that.
In some turbo/boosted engines they are using sodium filled or titanium valves on the intake not just the exhaust so the valve is designed to dissipate heat quickly. IIRC even the LS engines are using titanium intakes.
You will not bring these up to the temps that would be needed.

The other point is its not just the rear of the valves that is an issue, its the whole pocket.
No way are you getting that area up to those sorts of temps.
This procedure was probably intended for one group of engines, when info like this gets out in the wild it has a habit of becoming the be all and end all fix for every engine.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3415395 - 07/05/14 04:18 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Mystic]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 3137
Loc: Northeastern MT
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Don't speak for me Trajan. I will speak for myself. I have not used Auto-RX in years. I gave my last two bottles away to a guy here at bobistheoilguy.com. Let me repeat in case you don't understand: I STOPPED USING AUTO-RX YEARS AGO! The next time you mention my name you be sure to include that.

You also mention SteveSRT8. Unlike you I am not going to try to talk for another person. But anybody can read SteveSRT8's reply above. He talked about the way he had been treated as an Auto-RX customer. He certainly does not seem very happy about how he was treated. Anybody can read what he said and draw his own conclusions.

Trav also talked about how he had been treated as an Auto-RX user. Trav is a professional mechanic in Germany and he has talked about how Kreen worked for him in cleaning some engines.

You talk about how wonderful Auto-RX is and put down other products. But you fail to mention the posters here who have had bad experiences with customer service after buying Auto-RX.

The next time you use my name to try to promote Auto-RX be sure to include I stopped using Auto-RX years ago.


I respect someone's decision to stop using a product because of poor customer service, and have done so myself.

As far as my backing this product, to reiterate - it did nothing when used in a properly maintained vehicle I had from new, but DID work as advertised on a vehicle that was purchased used, with an unknown maintenance history. I will say again, that for those that it does nothing, perhaps your engine is too clean/too well maintained to need that cleaning.

In any case, I have 1 bottle left which will be used in the 88 Dodge my wife just bought herself. After that, I don't plan to need to use a cleaner again.

The thing is, BITOGers will argue about anything, we are a diverse bunch with diverse opinions, and most of us have our preferences when it comes to ... any product. I always try to keep in mind that even though I may not agree with someone else, that doesn't necessarily make them wrong.


Edited by Kuato (07/05/14 04:20 PM)
_________________________
Amsoil

04 Jeep Wrangler 2.4 MT 186k
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#3415401 - 07/05/14 04:27 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Kuato]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3350
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Don't speak for me Trajan. I will speak for myself. I have not used Auto-RX in years.


It wasn't me who wrote all those posts. It was you. It was those posts that played a big part in my using it during my anecdote acceptance years.

So don't blame me if you now reject what is by your lights evidence. And don't whine about it now.

I'm giving you credit for steering me to use a product that in your own words many people have used with success.

Don't care if you stopped using it. I haven't used it either. But that doesn't change the fact that you praised it over and over.

Shouldn't of called me out in an above post Mystic.




Edited by Trajan (07/05/14 04:32 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3415428 - 07/05/14 05:00 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Oldswagon]
Turk Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 8020
Loc: MN

popcorn
_________________________
03 GMC Sierra 4x4 200k, M1 TDT
00 Saturn SL2 89 YO Lady Car. 79k Miles! PU
98 Saturn SC2 "Red Hot" PYB + LubeGard + Kreen
97 Camry 207k Maxlife


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#3415455 - 07/05/14 05:43 PM Re: Cleaning Engine Internals [Re: Turk]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 151
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Turk

popcorn




Add a beer. Cheers2

Imagine people getting harpooned for changing their minds about a product.

Trajan used and praised mmo from what I've read here, now he attacks it every chance he gets. Mystic used rx, spoke positively about it, now he feels different. Trajan used rx because Mystic endorsed it. WHO CARES? I wonder how many people tried products because they were mentioned here? Careful if you guys like something, post about and then have a different opinion later.

After all this I started reading more old threads, I wouldn't touch the rx stuff with a 10' pole now. So what, who cares? I also noticed people hate products they never tried, because someone else likes it. Is this elementary school?
Bottom line use whatever the [censored] you think is going to clean your engine, if it even needs to be cleaned. If it works shout it out, if it doesn't work, lets hear it.

Have a beer, and lighten up, life it too short.

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