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#3434207 - 07/24/14 09:34 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 372
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
I really know little about VAG DI petrols but since i'm in Europe i know somethimg about old DI engines. In early 2000 Alfa Romeo designed new 2.0 Jts engine with DI. Around 100k km cars would start losing power from 165 to in worse case 130 hp. Reason we all know: carbon deposits on intake valves. I was talking with an AR specialist and guy told me that they (manufacturer) changed map/ timing and oil grade. From 5w40/10w40 to fully synthetic 10w60. He sad that with this changes problem was solved, atleast in majority of cars.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

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#3434325 - 07/24/14 11:53 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: vinu_neuro]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.

The lubrizol findings pertaining to lower SAPS oils is certainly a valid point that seems to contradict this guy's findings.

As for the valve deposit test included in the 504 spec, theoretically it doesn't prove anything. Potentially the 502 oils could also excel on this test (or even do better), but since it's not required, then I guess we'll never know.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3434699 - 07/24/14 07:42 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1344
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.

All I know is in in 120F+ heat with the a/c at full blast in city driving with dusty conditions. If the 504 PU in my car holds up in these conditions it will hold up anywhere.

Jeff
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2013 VW GTI

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#3434704 - 07/24/14 07:48 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1344
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.

The lubrizol findings pertaining to lower SAPS oils is certainly a valid point that seems to contradict this guy's findings.

As for the valve deposit test included in the 504 spec, theoretically it doesn't prove anything. Potentially the 502 oils could also excel on this test (or even do better), but since it's not required, then I guess we'll never know.



How so? The report was Euro 3 which is 502 I believe vs euro 4 which is 504. Am I missing something here?

504 is 40% less deposits vs 502 so what will we never know?

Maybe 504 has a base oil or an additive in it like the guy from audizone was talking about and thus less deposits? Or is it the HTHS of 504 oils that are the reason?

I realize is not that simple but just from hindsight.

Jeff
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2013 VW GTI

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#3434748 - 07/24/14 08:43 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.

I already replied in that thread, in case you missed it.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3434749 - 07/24/14 08:44 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
How so? The report was Euro 3 which is 502 I believe vs euro 4 which is 504. Am I missing something here?

I was talking about the test that's included in the sequence of tests to obtain the 504 certification that vinu_neuro highlighted earlier:

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'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3434965 - 07/25/14 06:28 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.

I already replied in that thread, in case you missed it.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post9951393

He lost me. Not sure I understand what he's talking about anymore...
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'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3435318 - 07/25/14 01:32 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1344
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
QP Thanks for posting on the audi site. I think the guy works for a competitor of lubrizol so it's going to turn into a p I s s I n g match.

I still do not understand how he feels a group 4+will reduce deposits since it's the additives that are causing the issues not the base oil?

Then again all goes to who you believe? Lubrizol blames the additives while this uk guy blames the base oil.

So difficult on who to believe. I mean I would run Redline 5w30 in my car with confidence but lubrication isn't the question. Valve deposit reduction is. At least for me. As for one oil wearing more than an other is a debate that takes years to prove either way.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3435644 - 07/25/14 06:51 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1344
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Im curious too how the UK guy in the Audizone site says that he would use a 504 oil before using a group 3+ oil? Arent most 504 oils group 3+ oil?

Im curious to who this guy works for. I mean, if it was that simple to say, use a product like Redline, or some group 4+ oil and you will have less issues. I just find it hard to believe its that simple. If it was,I would just start using Redline 5w30 that they recommend for my GTI.

I think there is more to it than that though. Additives themselves must have something to do with the carbon build up because having less of them proves 40% less deposits. Sure Lubrizol is a company that sells additives, but they also showed the proof, wasnt hearsay.

The guy in the Audizone posts also said that there needs to be a coating on the valves to prevent the carbon build up? They do have a special coating. That is the VW patent I posted I think on the first page. That coating is supposed to resist carbon deposits and to clean them you simply do an Italian tune up every so often to clean the valves.

All this makes me curious. Very curious. crzy


Jeff
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2013 VW GTI

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#3435660 - 07/25/14 07:03 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1153
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Im curious too how the UK guy in the Audizone site says that he would use a 504 oil before using a group 3+ oil? Arent most 504 oils group 3+ oil?

Im curious to who this guy works for. I mean, if it was that simple to say, use a product like Redline, or some group 4+ oil and you will have less issues. I just find it hard to believe its that simple. If it was,I would just start using Redline 5w30 that they recommend for my GTI.

I think there is more to it than that though. Additives themselves must have something to do with the carbon build up because having less of them proves 40% less deposits. Sure Lubrizol is a company that sells additives, but they also showed the proof, wasnt hearsay.

The guy in the Audizone posts also said that there needs to be a coating on the valves to prevent the carbon build up? They do have a special coating. That is the VW patent I posted I think on the first page. That coating is supposed to resist carbon deposits and to clean them you simply do an Italian tune up every so often to clean the valves.

All this makes me curious. Very curious. crzy


Jeff

I think his reasoning is bcs 504.00 is blend of several base groups and not only that, due to very strict requirements, base oils are carefully selected.
if you remember, Lubrizol in the table says that VW505.01 which was approval for previous generation of VW diesel engines is Group 3.
On other hand, table says that VW504.00/507.00 are Group 3, 4 and 5. I think it is because it is ahrd to achieve what VW requires only with Group 3+.
Looking at the M1 ESP numbers it is hard to believe that it was made only of Group 3+ without using Group 4 and 5, especially very good pour point and flash point. Also, Pentosin on the German web site says that their VW504.00/507.00 is made from Synthetic based oils, while on same site their VW505.01 is advertised as HC oil.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3435710 - 07/25/14 07:53 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26150
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Im curious to who this guy works for.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-archer/12/b4/5a

Powerenhancer appears to be a company that distributes various oil and fuel additives, including Archoil, among others.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3435901 - 07/25/14 10:49 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1344
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

To be honest though I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. I ultimately seek the oil the will give the best wear protection and help with the valve deposit issue.

Wear though would be very difficult to prove over the short term and with the synthetics of today? Wear would take 100k or more and then compare to what? Just way to subjective.

So that leaves me with valve deposit issues. That is really the only reason I'm using 504 right now vs 502. Still will take 40k miles or more to really know.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3435975 - 07/26/14 02:05 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
deven Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 2149
Loc: Massachusetts
I guess I over simplify things a little too much but I am of the belief that the better the base stock the less deposits in an engine period since they tend to burn cleaner and resist oxidation better. I'm pretty sure that there are tests done to prove otherwise but until I see conclusive evidence I'll believe this to the fullest.

Hence I use Royal Purple in my Audi A6 3.0L TFSI engine. I'll really be surprised if there is any carbon build up in this engine after 100,000 miles if i so choose to keep it till then but I highly doubt it.
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#3436921 - 07/27/14 12:19 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33976
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff


I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.

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#3436947 - 07/27/14 12:48 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: JHZR2]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1153
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff


I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.

I think it is def. 5K in CA. However, I would like to see several UOA before making such conclusion. Each state has it's own blend of gas. It looks like here in CO TBN tend to deplete pretty fast. In my M1 0W40 UOA, TBN depleted from 11.7 to 2.6 in 5K.


Edited by edyvw (07/27/14 12:48 AM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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