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#3411909 - 07/01/14 07:02 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Anyone know the Noack of PU Euro 5w30 L by chance?

Jeff

IDK, since PU L is different then Shell Helix L.
I think it is due to base stocks since PU is Made in USA, while Helix is Made in EU.
Helix L is on par with M1 ESP.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3411964 - 07/01/14 08:09 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
skyactiv Offline


Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 654
Loc: The Midwest
According to the latest MSDS, it's a PAO based synthetic. The outdated technical data sheet says the NOACK is 11%. I posted a UOA using the PU Euro L 5W30 in my GTI. I didn't need to add any oil. Google Shell Lubricants Data Centre

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#3412976 - 07/02/14 09:37 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Does this article give the impression that Low Saps Matt affect durability?
low or no saps
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3412982 - 07/02/14 09:39 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: skyactiv]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
According to the latest MSDS, it's a PAO based synthetic. The outdated technical data sheet says the NOACK is 11%. I posted a UOA using the PU Euro L 5W30 in my GTI. I didn't need to add any oil. Google Shell Lubricants Data Centre


I understand what the web site stays the Noack is but it has to be incorrect to be 11% with the certs this oil carries.

Considering PU Euro 5w40 is 6.7% I reckon it should be around that figure.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3413220 - 07/03/14 08:11 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Agreed, it's probably 8% or so.
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#3414614 - 07/04/14 03:24 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: dparm]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
After much discussion wtih a few VW mechanics I think the 504 thing is out the window for me. I have PU 5w30L in at the momment but will ditch it and stick with my 0w40 M1.

Just seems that the mechanics dont feel its worth the risk to take in "hopes" that you get cleaner valves out of the deal. VW did have a patent on the intake valves which most of you guys probably already know about but I will post it here.

VW PATENT ON DI INTAKE VALVES

So in "Theory" and what the VW pro's that I have been in contact with say if I do what the patent says to do (basically a Italian Tune up at least once a month) should net me as clean of valves as I can possibly get. Even then, the cleanings are STILL going to be needed at some point or another.

Though the Italian Tune up option, if done correctly and often enough, should eliminate the issue. I think the 502 oils just are going to keep wear down IMO. Yes I cannot prove that, but it does make sense that an oil with more additives will be less prone to wear.

No I am not a scientist and yes I know there are WWAAYY smarter people than I on this site that will argue this, and if you can just post up some proof for the "common" man to rationalize.

Till then, unless someone proves me wrong or otherwise, Good Ol' tried and true M1 0w40 502 spec approved is going back in next oil change.

horse Sorry Guys.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3414624 - 07/04/14 03:41 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
This is right off the VW PATENT to sum up the "Italian Tune-Up"

An additional approach for reducing the formation of carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 is to increase the intake valve temperature, at least temporarily, since, surprisingly, it was found that any carbon deposits possibly present are removed at temperatures above 380° C. To this end, the intake valve unit, which comprises, among other components, the intake valves 20 and the valve stem guide 28, is designed with means that hinder heat dissipation in such a way that increased surface temperatures of more than 380° C. develop at least in the area of the neck 68 of the intake valves 20 in at least one predetermined region of the load characteristic diagram 74 of the internal combustion engine. This is illustrated in FIG. 4. The intake valve temperature is above 380° C. in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 are removed. This region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range. extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region 112 b during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region 112 b of the characteristic diagram for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves 20 sufficiently. In addition, this region of the characteristic diagram can be entered in the course of maintenance or repair work on the internal combustion engine in an automotive workshop.

THIS may be your best bet to fight Intake valve deposits on ANY Engine that has DI since most Intake valves on DI engines are plated.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3414778 - 07/04/14 08:21 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
You are giving too much thought into this.
If oil retains TBN after 5K, why is it bad to use it?
Why mechanics think you are risking anything here? Especially in CA where fuel is better then in rest of the U.S?
If oil retains TBN, TAN is OK, flash point is OK, cst is OK, then there is some benefit to that oil. At least that oil does not leave as much of deposits, you cans till do italian tune up, and your CAT will definitely flow better.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3414791 - 07/04/14 08:33 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25920
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Why mechanics think you are risking anything here?

Agreed. What risk?
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#3414802 - 07/04/14 08:49 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I am not sure exactly what the "risk" is either. I think it could be they really don't know and since VW recommends 502 in North America maybe the mechanics don't want to get into a he said he said argument? The one VW mechanic in Palm Springs where I had to take my car in told me 504 is fine just change it more often.

Yeah I give it allot of thought because these cars can get very expensive to fix. That is something I'm not really used to.

Sometimes I think the DI technology is more hassle then it's worth.

Then again some companies with DI may not have these problems? Who knows.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3414943 - 07/05/14 12:05 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am not sure exactly what the "risk" is either. I think it could be they really don't know and since VW recommends 502 in North America maybe the mechanics don't want to get into a he said he said argument? The one VW mechanic in Palm Springs where I had to take my car in told me 504 is fine just change it more often.

Yeah I give it allot of thought because these cars can get very expensive to fix. That is something I'm not really used to.

Sometimes I think the DI technology is more hassle then it's worth.

Then again some companies with DI may not have these problems? Who knows.

Jeff

Well here is the thing.
I trust more my knowledge then theirs.
Every time I talk to them (whether that was Montgomery, AL, San Diego, CA or Colorado Springs) I always stay appalled by the level of ignorance.
San Diego dealerships see much more volume of VW cars then Palm Springs. When I asked about 504 oils, answer was, and I quote: if you want your engine to look clean then use that oil!
When I mentioned TBN I lost them there, and I figured out that I should have little bit more trust in myself.
I am currently in Moab, UT. Tomorrow I am taking Tiguan on light off-road course in Arches National Park. Temperature is around 110, and M1 ESP has 4K. If I had a bit of doubt that that oil cannot make it, I would change it before coming here. Today, I did Monarch pass, 12,000ft, AC on, actually temp gauge started to move to the right from middle. I cranked heating, turned off AC, and everything was OK.
I will do UOA after all this, at 5K and we will see.


Edited by edyvw (07/05/14 12:13 AM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3415381 - 07/05/14 04:05 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.


Edited by BMWTurboDzl (07/05/14 04:08 PM)
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3415765 - 07/05/14 11:28 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.

Diesels: Yes
Gas: no.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3415967 - 07/06/14 09:28 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Delta Offline


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 55
Loc: Union, MS
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.
_________________________
2008 VW Jetta SE - 2.5 5cyl 5MT - Rotella T6 5w40
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#3416583 - 07/06/14 09:19 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Delta]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Delta
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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