Reputable info on minivans??

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Yes, I did. It's a lot to read. If the OP is not seriously considering a Honda minivan, there's no point wading through it. Unless something has changed because of this class action lawsuit, every Honda minivan comes with a VCM engine.


CARP! - You are RIGHT. When we bought the 2006 it was an option, and it was something I wanted NO part of. I somehow knew these would be problematic. Dragging cylinders along never seems to work out. MY APOLOGIES!

Originally Posted By: spasm3
You have to realize that if you are buying a minivan due to having children, its to save your other cars( and your back an knees getting them from the car seat). You are buying it to start tearing it up from day one. there will be juice, milk, cheerios throwup all over the seats and carpet, after that it will be muddy shoes, dirty dogs, then soccer, or football shoes, clothes bags etc. I would not buy any more trim level than you absolutely have to have. Have a nicer car for a car, and consider the minivan a utility vehicle. Buy cheap, in fact i would not buy one new for this purpose.


Absolutely straight scoop. THIS IS EXACTLY how we treated our van from day one. Now it doesn't even get washed anymore.

 

[crazyoildude]

Kia makes a nice mini van but Kia And Hyundai is not cheap anymore... They are good sellers because of their warranties.. Most of their vehicles are very well made. Everyone produces a lemon now and then but lately they seem to be ok

 

[JHZR2]

We will look at Chrysler because they are the best price point, the Toyota because my parents had a previa that we just loved in every way, and the odyssey, though somewhat odd looking,seems to be the gold standard.

I like the looks of the sienna best,but it's MPGs are poor. Yes, 2-3 mpg is a big deal to me.

Further, all of them, good or not, are due for a refresh approximately when were looking to buy. That's the big issue. Stinks to be a beta tester, also stinks to pay a regular price for a vehicle ceasing production in a year. So our timing may be contingent upon when updates to the "big two" (toy and honda) update. But as mentioned. Most of the info out there is JDM.

Until Hurricane Sandy claimed it, the parents' 94 previa was flawless. Other than tires, wipers, brakes, gas and oil (and a radiator, iirc), the thing was original at 238k miles. AT shifted perfect, ran smooth and well used no oil, etc.

And, contrary to the claims of vans being junk messes, ours looked like new inside and out. We were raised to respect our stuff to keep it clean and new when we practically could. Sure, there was plenty of football, track, hockey practices, camping trips, all summer every summer at the beach, etc. We knew how to take care and it did well for the vehicle. I keep my cars clean and new looking, at least what I can help, and our baby's messes (the baby is the only person to eat in the car) get dealt with now so the cars are not damaged. I'm not concerned about that - were not slaves to the vehicle. But it isn't a rolling dumpster to be treated like a garbage dump with seats.

The previa was pretty darn simple. Dual A/C and power everything, plus cruise, but I think that was it. I personally don't care for power seats, we got along fine with manual sliding doors (and given the bill to repair on a friend's odyssey, I'll pass), and I d never touch a power hatch. Magically we never had too. Any dire instances of two kids and eighteen bags of groceries all attached to mom in the pouring rain, like they try to claim will happen weekly when trying to sell this junk. So I'd anticipate buying something pretty simple too. No nav or screen that will break, no DVD players built in, no leather or fancy doodads.

The honda seems specced to our liking at a lower level better than the Toyota or Chrysler, though I think the chryco products undercut on price a decent amount.

But I'm still wrapped around the axle on when are each going to get their refresh, and how do we time our buying to account. Seems it's either best to buy one now when the models are mature but have a few years of life left, or wait for year 2-3 of the updated models. Thing is, it seems that may bean waiting until 2018-2020, which is too long.

That's why knowing a bit more on when these products will be refreshed would be really helpful...

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
it was something I wanted NO part of. I somehow knew these would be problematic. Dragging cylinders along never seems to work out.

The "it" for those who don't know, is cylinder deactivation. I just bought an LS3 Camaro 6MT which is the only way to dodge CD on GM V8s-all the autos come with it, not to mention a 26 HP hit. You would think GM would have learned from its disaster with this "technology" they tried it in Cadillacs in the 80's. As I like to explain it, the computers are smart enough now to make it happen, but they're not smart enough to change the laws of physics.

Back to minivanland, Toyota has resisted CD for years now. But with Honda enjoying a 15% MPG advantage (which is an important buy priority in this class) and the general public being completely ignorant on this issue, it probably won't be long until they join the parade. I would still recommend a thorough read of the Honda settlement website. It gives a lot of incite into their legal maneuvering on this issue. For example, the original claim was "excessive oil consumption". E crack Honda legal team got the complaint changed to "engine misfire". Why do you suppose they did that? The original plaintiffs were one six cylinder owner and one four cylinder (non-VCM) owner. Honda's settlement offer required limiting the claim to six cylinders with VCM, even though the non-VCM four cylinder had documented excessive oil consumption. It's not hard to figure out why Honda would want to do this but one has to ask, what's happening with their fours that is obviously not related to CD? Why has every Honda dealer in the country stonewalled loyal owners with the mantra that 1QT/1000 miles is "normal" oil consumption in cars with a 5 qt sump and an MM that takes you to an 8000 mile OCI? This is a very dirty deal and gives one some great incite into the ruthless legal maneuverings of the almighty Honda Motor Company. Buyer beware indeed!

I believe your intuition is spot on and I share it.

 

[Indydriver]

In case there's a mod watching....

Why does this forum cut off the access to edit so quickly? No other forum that I frequent does this. I like my posts to be correct for spelling and punctuation, so I always proofread and edit and sometimes, that takes multiple efforts. In the example above, I thought I typed "insight" only to have Apple's all-knowing auto-correct spit out "incite" instead. By the time I caught the error, editing was blocked. Some forums NEVER kill the access to editing posts and that can be a good thing as all of us occasionally write stuff we would soften at a later date. Loosen up a bit on the editing restrictions, will ya?

 

[fdcg27]

How about buying the Dodge as an outgoing model?
If you wait until Sept-Oct-Nov of that year, the vans should be dirt cheap.
Most of the "improvements" will be things that involve either power or video nonsense or things that only marginally improve fuel economy at the cost of other problems, like DI and variable displacement schemes.

 

[supton]

I'd be tempted to go Dodge, as I would trash the vehicle in ten years time. Muddy feet, spilled drinks, road salt, curb rash... Domestic ought to have cheap parts.

Couple years ago we thought about Mazda5, but wound up in Camry instead. Still gets beat up, but wife wanted stickshift, and we didn't want power doors. She also was quite sure she could handle three across the backseat in kiddie seats.

 

[Vikas]

What is the reference to "JDM" here? Something tells me that these minvans are not very popular in "Japanese Domestic Market". I would think these are just two big for them.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
We will look at Chrysler because they are the best price point, the Toyota because my parents had a previa that we just loved in every way, and the odyssey, though somewhat odd looking,seems to be the gold standard.

I like the looks of the sienna best,but it's MPGs are poor. Yes, 2-3 mpg is a big deal to me.

Further, all of them, good or not, are due for a refresh approximately when were looking to buy. That's the big issue. Stinks to be a beta tester, also stinks to pay a regular price for a vehicle ceasing production in a year. So our timing may be contingent upon when updates to the "big two" (toy and honda) update. But as mentioned. Most of the info out there is JDM.

Until Hurricane Sandy claimed it, the parents' 94 previa was flawless. Other than tires, wipers, brakes, gas and oil (and a radiator, iirc), the thing was original at 238k miles. AT shifted perfect, ran smooth and well used no oil, etc.

And, contrary to the claims of vans being junk messes, ours looked like new inside and out. We were raised to respect our stuff to keep it clean and new when we practically could. Sure, there was plenty of football, track, hockey practices, camping trips, all summer every summer at the beach, etc. We knew how to take care and it did well for the vehicle. I keep my cars clean and new looking, at least what I can help, and our baby's messes (the baby is the only person to eat in the car) get dealt with now so the cars are not damaged. I'm not concerned about that - were not slaves to the vehicle. But it isn't a rolling dumpster to be treated like a garbage dump with seats.

The previa was pretty darn simple. Dual A/C and power everything, plus cruise, but I think that was it. I personally don't care for power seats, we got along fine with manual sliding doors (and given the bill to repair on a friend's odyssey, I'll pass), and I d never touch a power hatch. Magically we never had too. Any dire instances of two kids and eighteen bags of groceries all attached to mom in the pouring rain, like they try to claim will happen weekly when trying to sell this junk. So I'd anticipate buying something pretty simple too. No nav or screen that will break, no DVD players built in, no leather or fancy doodads.

The honda seems specced to our liking at a lower level better than the Toyota or Chrysler, though I think the chryco products undercut on price a decent amount.

But I'm still wrapped around the axle on when are each going to get their refresh, and how do we time our buying to account. Seems it's either best to buy one now when the models are mature but have a few years of life left, or wait for year 2-3 of the updated models. Thing is, it seems that may bean waiting until 2018-2020, which is too long.

That's why knowing a bit more on when these products will be refreshed would be really helpful...


The current generation Dodge minivans seem to be the best value. $20500 for the AVP version ... which has all of the seats, stow and go.

Yes, minivans are practical.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
What is the reference to "JDM" here? Something tells me that these minvans are not very popular in "Japanese Domestic Market". I would think these are just two big for them.


When I search, there is a ton of info on Japanese variants. Moor example, searching for info on the 2016 odessey, there are drawings, spec details, etc. of course it is the JDM/RoW model, not the USA one.

Example.

There are either marginal or even questionable sites like this:

http://newestcars2015.com/2016-honda-odyssey-redesign-and-rumors/

http://2015reviewcars.com/2015-honda-odyssey-review-release-date/

Which also seem to not be us-based, or ones which may be more reputable but still show JDM stuff... Can't find a good link now but there were a ton I came upon which talked about the odyssey for example, but talked about how it has the 2.4l engine and is smaller than the na variant...


This is a good read:

http://m.wardsauto.com/blog/withering-minivans-iconic-segment-continues-slide

 

[Vikas]

Given that you are of the type to buy and keep, does it really matter if the manufacturer comes up with a new model the month after you purchase it? They will have three different model cycles and you will still have the original vehicle! It is like anything else in the life. Once you make the decision, you don't want to second guess yourself. The next computer is always going to faster and the next cellphone model is always going to have more features and the next camera is going to have more megapixels and the next minivans will be ...?

Buy the the best available deal when you need it.

 

[JHZR2]

That's a very valid point. Still, each new model tends to be safer, more economical, and for better or worse, have the newest tech. Wile we would by no frills by many standards, having the latest safety, engine management, etc is desirable.

 

[rjundi]

On MPG check fuelly. It rings true what other minivan drivers told me. The Toyota vs Honda MPG are quite close in the real world driving around town. Yes Honda squeaks a tad bit more on highway but most folks usage is around town and 20ish MPG is where its at. You cannot defy physics as these cars are heavy to get moving.

I am in market for the next 3 years until my wife gets sick of our Acura MDX as we have a third child. We make it work but not optimal for three kids in daily use with boosters/seatbelts.

Her pick is Toyota because she liked the rental and Honda (Civic) is what she got out of college and cannot get that out her head.

 

[Vikas]

If you need the minivan because you have little ones, then most of drives in it are going to be around town. Very occasionally you will be making high way trips in it (aka to visit grandma!) So the difference between highway mileage don't matter much. Around town, you are not breaking in to twenties with any of those behemoths.

With any new model, you have to worry about hashing out all bugs. Neither Honda nor Toyota is immune from new model syndrome.

When you are in the market to buy one, you have the resources to buy something way over your "desired" budget. I am assuming that you would like to buy something in mid twenties but if you loved something in low forties, you will not be eating ramen noodles to purchase it That puts you in completely different category than other households who are limited in their top end price or worse monthly payment for their minivan.

Bottomline; when your time comes, enjoy the process of extended test drives of what is available then.

 

[IndyIan]

You wouldn't be tempted by a used E class wagon? They seat 7 in pinch too.
I guess if it was 1992, it would be a more logical option, now they are too complicated to be cost effective as they age.

Anyways, back to minivans, I imagine Chrysler will hold over the current drivetrain fundementals for the next generation, and perhaps the others will too. I think you will find a suitably simple choice when the time comes. Or maybe the small turbo 4's will improve the mileage enough to try them.

 

[JOD]

Is a Mazda 5 really too small for you? It's gotten bigger over the years, and the 4 cylinder/manual transmission combo seems like a winner to me.

 

[Mykl]

Have you considered the gigantic crossovers that GM is selling that are basically just minivans with non sliding doors? The Traverse looks like it would be a pretty good minivan. I know they drive nicely.

 

[JTK]

Having owned 3 minivans in the past ~11yrs, I've got some experience with a 2001 Ford Windstar LX, 2008 Odyssey LX and our current 2013 Dodge Grand Caravan SE. They all got similar MPGs. High teens, low 20mpg depending on the season for day/day driving and mid/high 20's for long highway. They were all super comfortable and crazy useful. All 3 had minor annoyances, but nothing major. Never an all-out break-down.

As my kids aged some, currently 12,10,9,2 they seemed to have gotten FAR worse in terms of being rough on the interior, so keep that in mind. The Dodge has a black interior that shows EVERYTHING. I'm forever trying to keep up on it.

Of all 3 vans, the Dodge brings a smile to my face every (rare) time I drive it. The 3.6L, 62TE combo just plain growls and GOES. Dodge did some great things to the suspension and brakes for 2012 that makes it very Odyssey like IMO. The solid beam rear axle on the Dodge can be jittery over some bumps, but it's a much better setup for heavy loads.

The most amazing thing is, if you can stand no rear HVAC aside from the ducts under the front seat that blow back, no factory tint and a 2nd row bench, you can get a Grand Caravan for under $17K.

I'm a rarity that doesn't care for the stow-n-go. I don't want all the power options either, which I don't have with my "SE" model.

 

[greenjp]

Dunno about the upcoming models. I am in the same boat as the OP though with a bit of a shorter timeframe. Probably getting a van for the wife this summer. She is partial to Honda and Toyota so we'll probably look at those. I have had the opportunity in the past two months to spend a fair bit of time in both a Grand Caravan and Sienna as rentals on business trips.

The similarities are pretty interesting - size, seat adjustability, power sliding doors, etc. Both were similar trim levels. There seems to be a convergence across the brands. The Sienna has a backup camera which I consider to be an essential feature (or at least a proximity alarm system), the Dodge did not. The Dodge did have a power rear door which was pretty nifty.

For me though it all came down to one thing - the transmission in the Dodge is terrible. Just completely schizo in terms of when it would downshift, how many gears it would go down, etc. The Sienna was much more predictable and just worked better.

Our decision will be whether to buy new and try to get a good 15 years out of it, or get a ~3 year old CPO for 11-12 years. New LE and EX trims (I agree that getting the Cadillac trims is absurd but we do require the features of the mid-level trims) seem to be ~$29k new, while a CPO w/35k seems to be ~$22k ish. Works out to a similar $/year. Haven't really started shopping in earnest yet.

jeff

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Have you considered the gigantic crossovers that GM is selling that are basically just minivans with non sliding doors? The Traverse looks like it would be a pretty good minivan. I know they drive nicely.


Only the suburban is worth a look. Any others arent worth my time.

With three rows up, the cargo space becomes nearly useless, even in the latest ones like the pathfinder/infiniti variant... Even in ones like the Tahoe which are notionally quite large.

The third row is also nothing to write home about in terms of legroom.

If Im going to take the hit in MPG for a crossover/minivan, I might as well have max space and utility. Those crossovers while they look nice, just dont give it... And the sliding doors of a minivan are IMO very beneficial.

Id consider a crossover as a second family vehicle, but not without the utility of a minivan.

Additionally, when our baby was very small, we took the baby in the bucket into a Honda dealer and put the bucket into the back row. There was no more legroom with my seat as I wanted it then there was in our rabbit or saab!! I was amazed! The van was a good deal better...