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#3332808 - 04/03/14 09:56 PM Honda K series cam galling issue....
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3264
Loc: FL, USA
I was just doing some research on this hoping to find an answer but didnt find one anywhere. Was this problem ever rectified? I know the early K24's had this problem, and even some J35's in the Pilots. Some said a thicker oil was needed, some said it was a problem from the factory. Has anybody experienced this issue? And did Honda FIX the issue or is it still going on as the miles add up.
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord 2.4 127K
M1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 121K
M1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra

1991 Buick Park Avenue 3.8 115K
QSD 10w30
Fram TG

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#3332821 - 04/03/14 10:12 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Brule Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 422
Loc: St. Louis, Mo
The cam galling was supposed to be an issue on the K20 of the '02-'05 civic si as well. I sold mine at 232K miles and although it was consuming about a quart per 1000 miles the cams were as good as one could expect at that mileage. I suspect some were getting the cam galling due to oil starvation by letting their oil run low...only my opinion, though.
_________________________
2014 Camry V6 SE (QSUD 5w20)
2003 Civic Si [sold]
2010 Frontier SE 4.0 [gone]
2006 BMW M Coupe [sold]

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#3332826 - 04/03/14 10:16 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: Brule]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3264
Loc: FL, USA
Originally Posted By: Brule
The cam galling was supposed to be an issue on the K20 of the '02-'05 civic si as well. I sold mine at 232K miles and although it was consuming about a quart per 1000 miles the cams were as good as one could expect at that mileage. I suspect some were getting the cam galling due to oil starvation by letting their oil run low...only my opinion, though.


That seems like a lot of consumption, even for that mileage. How did you treat the car? And what weight of oil did you use through its life? Syn, dino?
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord 2.4 127K
M1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 121K
M1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra

1991 Buick Park Avenue 3.8 115K
QSD 10w30
Fram TG

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#3332837 - 04/03/14 10:25 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3145
Loc: PNW/WA
I'm not sure I've ever actually seen or heard of this on a K24, but with UOA's every 3K I'd think you'd catch it... Otherwise, it will certainly be visible during a valve adjustment (which you should probably have done if you haven't already).

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#3332859 - 04/03/14 10:41 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: JOD]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3264
Loc: FL, USA
Originally Posted By: JOD
I'm not sure I've ever actually seen or heard of this on a K24, but with UOA's every 3K I'd think you'd catch it... Otherwise, it will certainly be visible during a valve adjustment (which you should probably have done if you haven't already).


Well, one was performed around 100K at the dealer. So I never saw anything. Im not necessarily concerned about my vehicle, although if its something that still exists I would take precautionary measures.
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord 2.4 127K
M1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 121K
M1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra

1991 Buick Park Avenue 3.8 115K
QSD 10w30
Fram TG

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#3332885 - 04/03/14 11:24 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Brule Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 422
Loc: St. Louis, Mo
Originally Posted By: gregk24

That seems like a lot of consumption, even for that mileage. How did you treat the car? And what weight of oil did you use through its life? Syn, dino?


I drove it not exactly gently for the last 112k miles. It was consuming from the start...1.5 qt/1000mi. to 1 qt/1000 by the end. Up to around 185k miles all I ever used was M1 or O'Reilly syn 5w20. After that I experimented with TropArtic, Castrol HM, and even Amsoil with the same results. I was generally running 5w30 at the end...but even that couldn't help with the consumption.
_________________________
2014 Camry V6 SE (QSUD 5w20)
2003 Civic Si [sold]
2010 Frontier SE 4.0 [gone]
2006 BMW M Coupe [sold]

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#3332892 - 04/03/14 11:40 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: Brule]
01_celica_gt Offline


Registered: 07/29/13
Posts: 1065
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: gregk24

That seems like a lot of consumption, even for that mileage. How did you treat the car? And what weight of oil did you use through its life? Syn, dino?


I drove it not exactly gently for the last 112k miles. It was consuming from the start...1.5 qt/1000mi. to 1 qt/1000 by the end. Up to around 185k miles all I ever used was M1 or O'Reilly syn 5w20. After that I experimented with TropArtic, Castrol HM, and even Amsoil with the same results. I was generally running 5w30 at the end...but even that couldn't help with the consumption.


"It was by design per honda" I read that consistently on all rsx forums, there was maybe 1 or 2 people who reported low consumption to none, everyone else was 1 qt every 1000 miles, I read about 30 pages on about 3 different forums when I was doing research before buying a car.
_________________________
Red 01 Celica GT 1ZZ-FED(Rebuilt @ 186) Auto @ 203k
Red 00 Celica GT 1ZZ-FED(Rebuilt @ 129) Auto @ 130k

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#3332937 - 04/04/14 02:11 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Tegger Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1551
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I know the early K24's had this problem, and even some J35's in the Pilots.

How do you know that?

All I find in my extensive Honda documentation (which stops partway through 2010, unfortunately) is TSB 08-032. This TSB discusses a problem that affects only two dozen Canadian-built '08 Civic SI's with K20 engines. In that case, incorrect assembly led to insufficient lubrication, excessive heat buildup, and scoring of the camshaft.
_________________________
2013 Toyota RAV4 - 26,000 miles - Toyota 0W-20, Toyota filter

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#3332998 - 04/04/14 06:31 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11969
Loc: North Carolina
You can find a lot of anecdotal information on the internet about this in the K24s. It seems to affect the earlier ones...meaning prior to about 2004. I don't know if Honda made a design or materials change to the camshafts or not. I don't know if it was ever a real problem or not. I do know that mine look peachy. So there's some more anecdotal evidence.
_________________________
Cheers,
Jason

2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (Peak 0W-20)
2005 Acura MDX Touring (VNG 5W-20)

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#3333047 - 04/04/14 07:32 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Miller88 Offline


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 7562
Loc: Onondaga County
Why would someone design an engine to burn oil?
_________________________
'11 Focus MC 49K
'00 Cherokee PYB 125K
Ford filters on both!

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#3333087 - 04/04/14 08:14 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
propuckstopper Offline


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 53
Loc: MB, Canada
Here is a link to my story. To this day, the engine still ticks like a bugger but it hasn't died. It now has around 175,000 miles on the clock.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1533554/1
_________________________
1965 Pontiac GTO Tri-Power 4-Speed Hardtop (Montero Red)
1968 Pontiac GTO Covertible 400 H.O./Auto (Solar Red)
2000 Lexus ES300
2003 Honda Element AWD

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#3333119 - 04/04/14 09:01 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8744
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
So Honda engines aren't all made by the hand of the divine?
_________________________
2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#1 2129+mi- Supertech Syn 5W30 + Honda004 Fltr
2015 Forester 6MT 5Door, OC#2 9991mi-VSP 0W20 + Blue service "FRAM" Filter

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#3333120 - 04/04/14 09:03 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: propuckstopper]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3264
Loc: FL, USA
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
Here is a link to my story. To this day, the engine still ticks like a bugger but it hasn't died. It now has around 175,000 miles on the clock.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1533554/1


So you never changed out the camshaft? What oil have you used since the issue started? And how long has it been galled? Also, I just listened to your recording of the sound, and it sounds a lot like piston slap. Does the noise go away when warm?


Edited by gregk24 (04/04/14 09:16 AM)
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord 2.4 127K
M1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 121K
M1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra

1991 Buick Park Avenue 3.8 115K
QSD 10w30
Fram TG

Top
#3333144 - 04/04/14 09:52 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: Miller88]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11969
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why would someone design an engine to burn oil?


I think that was a probably a mischaracterization of an acceptable oil consumption specification. Most manufacturers' specification is less than 1 quart per 1,000 miles. I think someone misspoke if they claimed that Honda engines are designed to burn 1 quart per 1,000 miles.

If they are, then our two are way out of tolerance. Neither one uses a measurable amount of oil.
_________________________
Cheers,
Jason

2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (Peak 0W-20)
2005 Acura MDX Touring (VNG 5W-20)

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#3333184 - 04/04/14 10:45 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: Hokiefyd]
Miller88 Offline


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 7562
Loc: Onondaga County
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why would someone design an engine to burn oil?


I think that was a probably a mischaracterization of an acceptable oil consumption specification. Most manufacturers' specification is less than 1 quart per 1,000 miles. I think someone misspoke if they claimed that Honda engines are designed to burn 1 quart per 1,000 miles.

If they are, then our two are way out of tolerance. Neither one uses a measurable amount of oil.


In a post a few months back, I mentioned a friend of mine that went 11000 miles on valvoline nextgen oil in a 2005 J30. He never checked it and when I checked it for him, it was still at the full line.

Honda makes good engines. That's why I got a bit confused when it was said they designed it to burn oil.
_________________________
'11 Focus MC 49K
'00 Cherokee PYB 125K
Ford filters on both!

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#3333224 - 04/04/14 11:53 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8744
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
The engine in our '91 civic was garbage. As was the new ignition coil in cap defective by poor design. ( I still have that garbage cap on my owrkbench!) The wifes 85 mitsu colt 1.5 was a MUCH better engine comparing $7500 new car price point back in the day.
_________________________
2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#1 2129+mi- Supertech Syn 5W30 + Honda004 Fltr
2015 Forester 6MT 5Door, OC#2 9991mi-VSP 0W20 + Blue service "FRAM" Filter

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#3333372 - 04/04/14 02:54 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
propuckstopper Offline


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 53
Loc: MB, Canada
If you read the entire thread, you will see that I indeed changed out the camshaft and all the roller rockers. The noise continued, and still does to this day.

Here is the weirdest thing: when started ice cold, this engine is WHISPER quiet. There are no noises whatsoever. After about a minute of idling, it starts ticking. There is no way this is a case of the oil viscosity changing, as the engine has not run long enough to heat the oil significantly.

Believe me, I have had some very top-notch engine builders listen to this Element engine, and they are all equally stumped. One guy suggested that maybe the noise is in the VTEC system somewhere, although I have changed the filters in there and nothing looked abnormal.

Here is a post I did on the Honda Element forum, for those that are interested.
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57922
_________________________
1965 Pontiac GTO Tri-Power 4-Speed Hardtop (Montero Red)
1968 Pontiac GTO Covertible 400 H.O./Auto (Solar Red)
2000 Lexus ES300
2003 Honda Element AWD

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#3333707 - 04/04/14 10:21 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: propuckstopper]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3264
Loc: FL, USA
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
If you read the entire thread, you will see that I indeed changed out the camshaft and all the roller rockers. The noise continued, and still does to this day.

Here is the weirdest thing: when started ice cold, this engine is WHISPER quiet. There are no noises whatsoever. After about a minute of idling, it starts ticking. There is no way this is a case of the oil viscosity changing, as the engine has not run long enough to heat the oil significantly.

Believe me, I have had some very top-notch engine builders listen to this Element engine, and they are all equally stumped. One guy suggested that maybe the noise is in the VTEC system somewhere, although I have changed the filters in there and nothing looked abnormal.

Here is a post I did on the Honda Element forum, for those that are interested.
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57922



I will ask again, when your engine is at operating temp does the noise go away? Because my engine is also whisper quiet for a minute UNTIL IT IDLES DOWN then the piston slap begins. It sounds similar to your video, BUT it goes away once warmed up. And I dont mean when the coolant warms up, I mean after a good 10 minutes of driving or more.
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord 2.4 127K
M1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 121K
M1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra

1991 Buick Park Avenue 3.8 115K
QSD 10w30
Fram TG

Top
#3333733 - 04/04/14 10:47 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
propuckstopper Offline


Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 53
Loc: MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
If you read the entire thread, you will see that I indeed changed out the camshaft and all the roller rockers. The noise continued, and still does to this day.

Here is the weirdest thing: when started ice cold, this engine is WHISPER quiet. There are no noises whatsoever. After about a minute of idling, it starts ticking. There is no way this is a case of the oil viscosity changing, as the engine has not run long enough to heat the oil significantly.

Believe me, I have had some very top-notch engine builders listen to this Element engine, and they are all equally stumped. One guy suggested that maybe the noise is in the VTEC system somewhere, although I have changed the filters in there and nothing looked abnormal.

Here is a post I did on the Honda Element forum, for those that are interested.
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57922



I will ask again, when your engine is at operating temp does the noise go away? Because my engine is also whisper quiet for a minute UNTIL IT IDLES DOWN then the piston slap begins. It sounds similar to your video, BUT it goes away once warmed up. And I dont mean when the coolant warms up, I mean after a good 10 minutes of driving or more.


Here is exactly how this goes. Stone cold engine gets fired up and there is no noise whatsoever. When it idles down, it begins to tick.

Once it starts ticking, it is there for good. Five minutes or five hours of driving, the ticking remains.
_________________________
1965 Pontiac GTO Tri-Power 4-Speed Hardtop (Montero Red)
1968 Pontiac GTO Covertible 400 H.O./Auto (Solar Red)
2000 Lexus ES300
2003 Honda Element AWD

Top
#3333756 - 04/04/14 11:14 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: propuckstopper]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3264
Loc: FL, USA
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
If you read the entire thread, you will see that I indeed changed out the camshaft and all the roller rockers. The noise continued, and still does to this day.

Here is the weirdest thing: when started ice cold, this engine is WHISPER quiet. There are no noises whatsoever. After about a minute of idling, it starts ticking. There is no way this is a case of the oil viscosity changing, as the engine has not run long enough to heat the oil significantly.

Believe me, I have had some very top-notch engine builders listen to this Element engine, and they are all equally stumped. One guy suggested that maybe the noise is in the VTEC system somewhere, although I have changed the filters in there and nothing looked abnormal.

Here is a post I did on the Honda Element forum, for those that are interested.
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57922



I will ask again, when your engine is at operating temp does the noise go away? Because my engine is also whisper quiet for a minute UNTIL IT IDLES DOWN then the piston slap begins. It sounds similar to your video, BUT it goes away once warmed up. And I dont mean when the coolant warms up, I mean after a good 10 minutes of driving or more.


Here is exactly how this goes. Stone cold engine gets fired up and there is no noise whatsoever. When it idles down, it begins to tick.

Once it starts ticking, it is there for good. Five minutes or five hours of driving, the ticking remains.


Got it, so its certainly not piston slap.
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord 2.4 127K
M1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 121K
M1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra

1991 Buick Park Avenue 3.8 115K
QSD 10w30
Fram TG

Top
#3333829 - 04/05/14 04:28 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: Miller88]
bruno Offline


Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 406
Loc: new Jersey
Ever hear of BMW M Series ?

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#3334789 - 04/06/14 08:49 AM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8744
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Again, maybe the VCT is not assembled properly. Then you have wrist pin sizing and rod clearances, oil restrictor orifice not replaced after rebuild, transmission flex plate and bolts, etc,


Edited by ARCOgraphite (04/06/14 08:49 AM)
_________________________
2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#1 2129+mi- Supertech Syn 5W30 + Honda004 Fltr
2015 Forester 6MT 5Door, OC#2 9991mi-VSP 0W20 + Blue service "FRAM" Filter

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#3334962 - 04/06/14 01:06 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Highkm Offline


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 22
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I have a 2003 accord 4cyl. I notices cam lobe galling and pitting around 300K. Dealership foreman indicated the cams need replacement. I sent the oil sample to a lab that indicated nothing of concern regarding metallic composition of the oil sample. So I continued driving. Just around 590K timing chain stretched about 0.5 CM and threw an engine light. While changing the chain I inspected the cam shafts with focus on the lobes. They looked similar to when they were 300K. So no concerns. I am 606K now. The valves are due for adjustment to reduce the noise. If you experience the valve noise it does not indicate pending engine problems. It is good to hear it a bit because it means they close properly. Otherwise they will burn out. Engine consumes 1L of 0W20 every 3800 to 4200 KM combined driving. I use Amsoil 0W20 in the winter and 5W30 from April to November (South Ontario). I do a complete drain with filter replacement every 25K. The info I posted is so that you all can compare and lay your concerns to rest. Use good synthetic oil and oil filter and don't worry for 500K. If your car sits for months without running the engine periodically the cam shafts as well as other engine components become dry. If that's your case, put molyslip E oil additive. It coats the metal and stays there for at least until your next oil drain and fill. It saves the cam lobes as well as cylinder walls during dry starts. This piece of information is also confirmed by Amsoil support line. Happy driving!

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#3335002 - 04/06/14 01:53 PM Re: Honda K series cam galling issue.... [Re: gregk24]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1670
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: gregk24
That seems like a lot of consumption, even for that mileage. How did you treat the car? And what weight of oil did you use through its life? Syn, dino?

It's not a lot. The life of valve-stem oil seals depends on their age (years) as well as mileage. For a 15-year-old car, more than a quart per one thousand miles is typical. There is a spring at the circumference of the seal to apply pressure but the synthetic rubber (Viton) in all valve-stem oil seals will harden with age and fail to seal against the valve stem, despite the spring pressure.

If cam wear is an issue, use a quality-brand oil. Thicker oil, more ZDDP, more moly, and other smart additives and smart base stocks may help a little. Going too thick may starve the hard to reach parts of oil though.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 258,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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