Malaysia Airlines 777 loses contact...not found

[dave1251]

I believe Astro did a good job of explaining the logistics of the situation. The U.S. military and the U.S. Navy in particular is stretched thin and overextended as is. There are more pressing needs. There is not enough assets to send ships for a search mission.

 

[Astro14]

The crews are paid for. The ships are paid for. Kind of like your car.

Would you drive across the country without being paid for lodging, food, fuel, mileage, or maintenance?

Ships need those things too. The budget for consumables (food, fuel, parts, ammo) for our combat operations neared $100 billion per year. This search is already expensive. Dropping sensors and locators off these airplanes in addition to fuel, maintenance and amortized reduction in airframe life already costs millions. You have to bed down and maintain the crews. It's not cheap...who's paying?

 

[Blaze]

I noticed a P-3 dropping sensors they were grabbing out of these tubes then placing them in a tube that drops them on location. Do they retrieve these sensors? or kiss goodbye?

 

[MNgopher]

I think Astro14 nails it on the head. Yep, there are ships and crews already, but in order to task them to this job (participating in an international search), you would have to pull them away from their other planned taskings. Do we want to leave the Arabian Sea area and all the support missions running there? Now if the international search happened be in the area where the carrier was already tasked, then sure. While the ship and crew are already being paid or are paid for, they aren't being paid to do nothing. They have other jobs to do.

Perhaps stepping back, the question might be what is the US interest in participating in this search? Yes, there were three US citizens on board. Yes, the plane was manufactured by a US company. Of course we have global security concerns. Beyond that, the plane was leaving a foreign country, headed to a foreign country, and apparently crashed in international territory that is not our primary search and rescue area to begin with.

We are already providing two ships with helicopters, P3 and P8 aircraft, a team from the NTSB, and equipment to listen for the pingers if a search area can be defined. It is not as if the US is contributing nothing, but a carrier and all of its escort ships would take it into another league entirely...

 

[Sam2000]

Agree. Most on the plane were Chinese. China has the manpower to look for this.

 

[cjcride]

Lot of good information guys Thanks, Especially that Astro guy.
Good chart Sam.

There should be an international emergency fund kind of like a disaster relief that helps the countries that bear the burden with some cash relief for their expenses.

We all benefit by finding the Flight Data and Voice Recorders.

 

[andyd]

That is a stormy area. The more stuff out looking for goners increases the potential for more loss of life. Please don't add to the death count. Be careful out there!

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Blaze
I noticed a P-3 dropping sensors they were grabbing out of these tubes then placing them in a tube that drops them on location. Do they retrieve these sensors? or kiss goodbye?


Gone. They're consumable items, like ammo. They're not cheap either.. Tens of thousands per sensor.

We have provided as much in $$ as any other nation in his search. Sent our newest, best airplanes. Sent the only locator for the beacon. Sent ships, people and supplies. We are adding miles (steaming or flying hours) on our machines, fatigue on our crews. That cost is being taken out of the Navy's operating budget and it means that we do less elsewhere. It's worth it, but it has to be balanced with competing priorities and missions.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Agree. Most on the plane were Chinese. China has the manpower to look for this.

I believe the above chart is for the initial search near Vietnam. The current search is different.

 

[Trajan]

There isn't much left to discuss that would be new.

It did not land at some remote airfield. So it isn't having bomb bay doors fitted, or about to be used as some kind of weapon.

It was not hijacked because Malaysia has natural resources and a cargo of diamonds was on it.

Quantum mechanics/theory did not cause the plane to just vanish.

Nobody "hacked" the computers.

Mossad has nothing to do with it. Or Jews in general.

Logic tells one that it's on the ocean floor. The black boxes, if ever found, only record the last two hours IIRC

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
There isn't much left to discuss that would be new.

It did not land at some remote airfield. So it isn't having bomb bay doors fitted, or about to be used as some kind of weapon.

It was not hijacked because Malaysia has natural resources and a cargo of diamonds was on it.

Quantum mechanics/theory did not cause the plane to just vanish.

Nobody "hacked" the computers.

Mossad has nothing to do with it. Or Jews in general.

Logic tells one that it's on the ocean floor. The black boxes, if ever found, only record the last two hours IIRC

Yep....that's pretty much it. I'll stand by my GUESS that it was the Captains doing...and that he went nutty from relationship problems. But who knows?
Still...a certain conspiracy contributor here will still blame the JEWS in some way. THEY have powers you know! Lol...

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: Trajan
There isn't much left to discuss that would be new.

It did not land at some remote airfield. So it isn't having bomb bay doors fitted, or about to be used as some kind of weapon.

It was not hijacked because Malaysia has natural resources and a cargo of diamonds was on it.

Quantum mechanics/theory did not cause the plane to just vanish.

Nobody "hacked" the computers.

Mossad has nothing to do with it. Or Jews in general.

Logic tells one that it's on the ocean floor. The black boxes, if ever found, only record the last two hours IIRC

Yep....that's pretty much it. I'll stand by my GUESS that it was the Captains doing...and that he went nutty from relationship problems. But who knows?
Still...a certain conspiracy contributor here will still blame the JEWS in some way. THEY have powers you know! Lol...


The only problem with your guess is that the copilot would have to be either dead at the time or in on it, since the joystick/wheels are connected to each other.

Tom Clancy's novel Debt of Honor does just that. Pilot kills copilot, and flies the empty airliner into Congress.

But that *is* a novel.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: Trajan
There isn't much left to discuss that would be new.

It did not land at some remote airfield. So it isn't having bomb bay doors fitted, or about to be used as some kind of weapon.

It was not hijacked because Malaysia has natural resources and a cargo of diamonds was on it.

Quantum mechanics/theory did not cause the plane to just vanish.

Nobody "hacked" the computers.

Mossad has nothing to do with it. Or Jews in general.

Logic tells one that it's on the ocean floor. The black boxes, if ever found, only record the last two hours IIRC

Yep....that's pretty much it. I'll stand by my GUESS that it was the Captains doing...and that he went nutty from relationship problems. But who knows?
Still...a certain conspiracy contributor here will still blame the JEWS in some way. THEY have powers you know! Lol...


The only problem with your guess is that the copilot would have to be either dead at the time or in on it, since the joystick/wheels are connected to each other.

Tom Clancy's novel Debt of Honor does just that. Pilot kills copilot, and flies the empty airliner into Congress.

But that *is* a novel.

Yes, my thought is that he incapacitated the copilot just before he made the turn. Or not. Of course I am only guessing. Still, the whole thing is a real mystery and a tragedy for the passengers.

 

[whip]

I've been reading this thread daily. I want to think all of the people that provided real technical info. I learned a lot more on this site, than I did on most news sources.
To all of the people that claim the plane is on the ground, or some other conspiracy, despite the overwhelming facts stating otherwise, thank you for the entertainment.

 

[Vikas]

why tragedy for the passenger? why can't you come up with a scenario where many passengers were on it and collectively decided to crash the plane? I mean you have no problem blaming the pilot without knowing really anything! We might as well take in to consideration the religion of all the passengers and indict them like we always do. At this stage ascribing blame to anybody seems to be rather premature.

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
why tragedy for the passenger? why can't you come up with a scenario where many passengers were on it and collectively decided to crash the plane? I mean you have no problem blaming the pilot without knowing really anything! We might as well take in to consideration the religion of all the passengers and indict them like we always do. At this stage ascribing blame to anybody seems to be rather premature.

What is your issue? I merely came up with a guess and you come down on me like some sort of psycho. And where did I mention his religion? Where? Tell me...where? I expressed my opinion WITHOUT indicating ANY religion. I have an OPINION. That's all. What....you think it's not possible that due to the pilots personal issues he is above ANY suspicion?
Sometimes BITOG isn't worth my time when I get attacked by somebody like you...for merely expressing a NON-VOLATILE opinion.

 

[Vikas]

I am saying your assumption which makes the pilot to be a psycho himself and killing the 248 passengers is as reprehensible as some people who blame somebody who happens to have different religion.

Bottom line is we don't know. Why are you so eager to blame the pilot without any proof? I have not attacked you at all.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Trajan

The only problem with your guess is that the copilot would have to be either dead at the time or in on it, since the joystick/wheels are connected to each other.

Tom Clancy's novel Debt of Honor does just that. Pilot kills copilot, and flies the empty airliner into Congress.

But that *is* a novel.


What usually happens (happened a few times already) the captain asks the copilot to step out to get some coffee or to get a bathroom break, then you lock the doors from inside.

The next part is an original thing, very wicked and cruel. Depressurize the plane while wearing oxygen mask, go to 40,000 feet and the plane is all yours.

 

[friendly_jacek]

CNN at its best...

 

[wrcsixeight]

What are the current abilities to recover something deep on the ocean floor?

It seems to me this plane was flown intentionally to one of the most hostile places in which a recovery could be attempted.

We've all seen the videos of Captain Sully landing on the flat water of the Hudson. Was there any floating debris after that landing?

I don't know if Astro14 is still bothering to follow this thread with all the recent quibbling and flashes of tin foil hat syndrome, but if so, as what size sea state could a plane the size of a 777 be water landed so that there is no major floating debris to find, especially if the passengers were already ...incapacitated?

I know the most recent search areas are prone to both sizeable long period swells and also shorter period storm conditions, and even both at the same time. I do not know what the sea state was at the time when the fuel would have run out, or nearly so, but I am sure this has already been considered.

But it seems to me that the plane might very well have been intentionally water landed, perhaps softly, with minimal debris, and sunk into one of the deeper ocean trenches available(~21,000 feet) the Diamantina Deep, in one of the most inhospitable areas in which to mount a recovery, with a Southern Hemisphere winter setting in. Look at how much the weather has already affected the search for floating debris, and I don't think a significant Cold front has pushed its way north past the search zone since.

The roaring 40's storms in the southern Pacific can easily send large groundswells to Alaska. The seastate in the center of such a storm can easily top 50 foot seas with hurricane force winds. In the Southern Indian ocean, Swells will easily make it as far north as possible, like Oman and Pakistan. The Indian Ocean being warmer seems to cause storms of greater magnitude as well when Antarctic cold mixes with the warmth from the North.


I think perhaps looking for a floating debris field is a waste of time. Perhaps dragging a sensor deep along the most inaccessible parts of the Diamantina Deep or Dordrecht basin would prove a wiser search method than looking for floating debris.

And if a muted ping is detected at 21000 feet deep, is recovery from such depths even possible?

At What pressures/depth can the Flight Data recorder actually survive to send out the ping?

Was there any other deep ocean trench options if the intention was to sink a plane in the deepest most inaccessible place possible? How much easier would a Challenger Deep recovery in the Mariana trench be in the tropics vs the roaring 40's.

The Java trench was closer and deeper than Diamantina Deep, but also too close to Indonesia's radar.