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#3324079 - 03/26/14 10:54 AM Lab results after running with no air filter
BigD7 Offline


Registered: 10/15/10
Posts: 45
Loc: NY
2010 Jeep Commander 5.7 Hemi
A few weeks ago I posted about running my vehicle without an air filter for an unknown amount of time when my aftermarket air intake slid off the tb. About a week after I noticed the issue I did an Oil change and sent a sample to Blackstone. The oil had slightly less than 5 months on it. Ironically, the silicone was low. The wear metals however, especially the iron, were high. The numbers were equivalent to an engine that'd run its oil for 5800 miles. I only put about 1,000 on mine.
Just some background on my situation - the truck has around 25K miles. OCIs are usually every 6 months, around 1500 miles per. Lots of short trips - (2) 2 mile runs daily, 5 days a week, so the engine rarely gets fully warmed up. The oil was PP 5w-20.

Code:
MI on Oil			1,000				
MI on Unit 			25,700
Sample Date			03/05/14
Make Up Oil Added		0 quarts


				Universal Avgs
ALUMINUM		2		2
CHROMIUM		0		1
IRON			21	        19
COPPER			35		41
LEAD			0		1
TIN			0		1
MOLYBDENUM		56		77
NICKEL			0		1
MANGANESE		1		1
SILVER			0		0
TITANIUM		0		0
POTASSIUM		3		2
BORON			16		49
SILICON			3		8
SODIUM			3		49
CALCIUM			2168		2011
MAGNESIUM		12		185
PHOSPHORUS		690		833
ZINC			773		797
BARIUM			0		0

SUS Viscosity @ 210F	51.0
cSt Viscosity @ 100C	7.56
Flashpoint in F	395
Fuel %			<0.5
Antifreeze %		0.0
Water %			0.0
Insolubles		0.2
TBN			2.8


Here's the comment from Blackston: We typically look for dirt in the amount of silicon present in a sample of oil. Silicon read pretty low here, so it doesn't look like too much dirt got into your engine. Wear metals do seem a little high, though, for just 1,000 miles. Universal averages show typical wear levels for the 5.7L Hemi engine (if your Commander
is the 3.7L or 4.7L version, let us know) after ~5,800 miles. Iron, from steel parts, is a bit high. Maybe this is residual from last time, if you've been using long oil runs. Insolubles were low, and the viscosity was fine. Check back after a normal interval.

So i'm having a bit of trouble understanding this. Since the Silicone is so low, how come the wear is so high? Can it be that its not attributed to ingesting unfiltered air? Can my short trips be also responsible for this? There is no fuel in the oil but this could be because I took a long drive to warm up the oil before the change. Im pretty sure there is fuel dilution during the week since the car never warms up. Sometime i can go 2-3 weeks before taking a single long drive to fully warm up the motor. Anyways appreciate all responses.

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#3324085 - 03/26/14 10:57 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Brybo86 Offline


Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 1749
Loc: Chicago, IL
iron potentially still from break in wear...? do you have another UOA to compare it to?
_________________________
08 Honda Accord EX-L 2.4L RP 0w20 116k
01 Kymco People 50
95 Lexus LS400 M1 AFE 0w30 178k
95 Yamaha Jog
86 Kawasaki 454Ltd Valvoline 20w50 18k

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#3324093 - 03/26/14 11:03 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
BigD7 Offline


Registered: 10/15/10
Posts: 45
Loc: NY
nope, unfortunately this is my first UOA. I kind of thought of that as well - I am very easy on the motor so may be still be break-in...

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#3324104 - 03/26/14 11:14 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Zaedock Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 3860
Loc: Massachusetts
Told you ingestion would be OK! Glad it was.

Not that it would make a difference in the long term, but I think a step up to 5W30 would lower Fe. Run another 5W20 round or two and check back.
_________________________
2012 F150 Ex-cab 5.0L/2004 Malibu Maxx LT
1992 YJ "The Heep"/1994 Olds Cutlass Ciera 3.1/auto
1975 Ford Bronco/1959 Willys CJ5/20XX Custom rock crawler

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#3324108 - 03/26/14 11:20 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
901Memphis Online   content


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 9734
Loc: Northern Kentucky
Not really the best time of the year or worstplace in the world to run without a filter. Also a pretty short run.

But thanks for posting it's interesting still.
_________________________
2002 Buick Century 118k - Built 4T65e - M1 0w40 /Fram Ultra XG 3387A
1998 Nissan Altima 335k - 5MT - M1 HM 5w30/Fram Ultra XG7317

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#3324113 - 03/26/14 11:26 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
BigD7 Offline


Registered: 10/15/10
Posts: 45
Loc: NY
I've been thinking about 5w-30 but the hemi's MDS requires 5w-20. The truck is under warranty (power and lifetime service contract) so I'm reluctant. My regular OCI is 6 months, also due to the warranty. I dont drive much, hence the low mileage.
I'll definitely do a UOA after a full 6 months and see what happens.

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#3324118 - 03/26/14 11:32 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Iketh Offline


Registered: 03/19/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Florida
curious if driving in a dusty environment
_________________________
2013 Honda Civic Si
Royal Purple XPR 5w-30
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#3324119 - 03/26/14 11:35 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Iketh Offline


Registered: 03/19/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: BigD7
I've been thinking about 5w-30 but the hemi's MDS requires 5w-20. The truck is under warranty (power and lifetime service contract) so I'm reluctant. My regular OCI is 6 months, also due to the warranty. I dont drive much, hence the low mileage.
I'll definitely do a UOA after a full 6 months and see what happens.


Don't do 5w-30 for the driving conditions you described. If engine is rarely fully warmed up, stick with the 5w-20.

Switch to 5w-30 for a long trip towing.
_________________________
2013 Honda Civic Si
Royal Purple XPR 5w-30
Mobile 1 EP Oil Filter

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#3324120 - 03/26/14 11:35 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 6044
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Wow low miles on that 2010 Commander, nice!
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand 4.0 @ 130k Pennzoil HM 5w30 w/ 1 qt 10w40
Fram TG8A
KIA Sedona 55k, Chevy Lumina 182k, Chrysler Sebring 183k, Chrysler Concorde 111k

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#3324121 - 03/26/14 11:36 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 7702
Loc: Texas
21 PPM iron really doesn't seem high for an iron-block engine still at relatively low mileage if you ask me. Neither of my Jeep 4-leakers ever returned lower than 18 PPM iron, and the best my SRT has done so far is 23 PPM (granted, its under 20k miles but the jeeps are both over 100k).

I wouldn't worry- sounds like the whole thing was a non-event.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

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#3324131 - 03/26/14 11:46 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 16053
Loc: Upstate NY
Its silicon, not silicone. Copper is very high and should be < 5. Its possible you had some large of silicon that get filtered out prior to testing and they caused wear. You might want to ask for a particle count.
_________________________
2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT PP & M1
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0 - PP & M1
1999 Dodge Ram 2500 w/Cummins - Rotella T6 & M1


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#3324134 - 03/26/14 11:51 AM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
BigD7 Offline


Registered: 10/15/10
Posts: 45
Loc: NY
not a dusty environment at all - Long Island, New York.
So do you guys think I should continue with my 6-month OCIs or shorten, at least for now? I'll ask for particle count. That will show how dirty the oil is, correct?

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#3324150 - 03/26/14 12:01 PM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Hootbro Offline


Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1763
Loc: DELAWARE
Originally Posted By: BigD7
not a dusty environment at all - Long Island, New York.
So do you guys think I should continue with my 6-month OCIs or shorten, at least for now? I'll ask for particle count. That will show how dirty the oil is, correct?


You have corrected the issue. I would not make any exception to shortening the OCI. In fact, due to your low mileage of only 1500 miles every six months, I would go to a yearly OCI and still sleep well at night.
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2015 RAM 2500 6.4 HEMI 4x4
2013 FIAT 500
2010 Toyota FJ Cruiser 4x4


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#3324202 - 03/26/14 12:45 PM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: BigD7]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 5126
Loc: North Coast
Originally Posted By: BigD7
not a dusty environment at all - Long Island, New York.
So do you guys think I should continue with my 6-month OCIs or shorten, at least for now? I'll ask for particle count. That will show how dirty the oil is, correct?


You are fine. I would go 5000 miles or one year on the PP 5w20.
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#3324224 - 03/26/14 01:15 PM Re: Lab results after running with no air filter [Re: Doog]
domer10 Offline


Registered: 02/26/14
Posts: 234
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: BigD7
not a dusty environment at all - Long Island, New York.
So do you guys think I should continue with my 6-month OCIs or shorten, at least for now? I'll ask for particle count. That will show how dirty the oil is, correct?


You are fine. I would go 5000 miles or one year on the PP 5w20.


Hey stated he can't due to lifetime warranty.....MUST be changed or voids warranty.
_________________________
2012 Dodge Ram Sport
2002 BMW M3
2008 BMW 135i

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