2009 Subaru Forester ATF debris with pic

[Phishin]

Looked at 2009 Subaru Forester yesterday. 44k miles on the clock. I imagine the tranny never has been serviced.

I pulled tranny ATF dipstick several times, and each time there was a add small amount of flaky material left on the paper towel. I assume this is clutch material....but is this normal for Subaru tranny? I've never seen debris in ATF before. But never looked or owned a Subie before either.

Also, the ATF isn't red. Is Subaru ATF not red? It had the same color as low mileage engine oil. I thought that was weird.

Here is a pic of paper towel with a few small specks of this black material.

 

[krismoriah72]

That is normal color for Subaru ATF HP. Clear to brown.

Service schedule says inspect every 30K miles with Note 4 saying "When the vehicle is frequently operated under severe driving conditions, replacement should be performed every 15,000 mi(24,000 km)." There is a lot of territory between replace every 15K and merely inspect every 30K, so that inspection of the fluid is what really determines when to change it.

The only two characteristics that lend themselves to inspection are color and smell.

Since you are seeing metal particles, its time to change.

 

[Subdued]

run

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: Subdued
run


Really? Care to explain?

 

[LoneRanger]

The 4EAT has a pretty good rep for durability. I wouldn't be too concerned.

 

[tommygunn]

Some Subaru ATF is that color, and not red. Besides, that sample looks nice and light in color, as opposed to dark brown/black like most worn ATF does. Did it smell burnt or anything?

Maxlife ATF is great stuff, as is the Castrol on sale at AAP. I like Mag 1 synthetic low-vis.

 

[TrevorS]

Its a good idea to make the 1st ATF change a full flush that you do early as most gunk occurs very early on.

So you should do a full exchange and inspect the spent fluid, perhaps get a UOA.

 

[martinq]

I'd flush the tranny fluid (on a new vehicle) at around 5k and again at the first severe-service interval (or sooner). From there on the fluid should be clean enough, and the tranny broken-in enough, to sustain long fluid life/service.

Adding magnets the reservoir will greatly aid in keeping wear down, an easier way to achieve this would be to splice-in a Magnefine filter into the cooling loop. The Magnefine can be replaced/cleaned much easier but would not be as effective as magnets in the reservoir.

All of this also applies to the power-steering fluid.

Does your Forester use the external spin-on tranny filter?


+1 for Valvoline MaxLife ATF

+1 for fluid analysis

 

[FutureDoc]

The 4EAT is tough as nails and has an easy-to-access drain plug. If it has the spin-on tranny filter (I think it does), it would be good to replace it (with Subaru OEM filter only... its is about $40). I doubt that material can make it past the filter and whatever makes it the filter should not do much harm. I am not a fan of flushes, D&F will be fine especially with the current mileage. You are not going to need to get 100% 100K+ burnt fluid out... unless the fluid is burnt.

Magnets are not really needed. The filter does that job and if anything, it just prevents particles from getting to the filter. So with magnets, you have to completely drop the pan and manually clean every magnetic surface... rather than just spinning off the filter. Likewise, doing a non-forced flush runs all the exported fluid through the filter... so anything that does not get past the filter is left in the pan. I rather just pull the plug and drain out what is in the pan and replace.

I also recommend Valvoline Maxlife OR Subaru OEM Fluid. Avoid Castrol products in the 4EAT.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Magnets are not really needed. The filter does that job and if anything, it just prevents particles from getting to the filter. So with magnets, you have to completely drop the pan and manually clean every magnetic surface... rather than just spinning off the filter. Likewise, doing a non-forced flush runs all the exported fluid through the filter... so anything that does not get past the filter is left in the pan.

You still seem to misunderstand the filtering requirements of hydraulic and gear systems. There is no better filter than a magnet in the sump and that's why every gearbox & transmission comes with at least one in the system. The spin-on bypass filter that Subaru uses (a rarity in automotive) is an excellent filter compared to the norm but it cannot catch the same material that a magnet does.

So yes, magnets are absolutely needed in the transmission. Adding magnetic filtering reduces the quantity of circulating wear-particles and therefor the production of new wear material. What you want or do does not change that.

Also, adding filter capacity (say, a magnet or inline Magnefine) does not defeat the purpose of another filter in the system (the bypass, spin-on), they both continue to function in tandem. The added filtration capacity leads to extended fluid life.

 

[01rangerxl]

If the magnet is near the dipstick, you will see some junk.

In my truck, the dipstick drops into the pan right next to the magnet. Whenever I pull the dipstick, I see a little bit of gray stuff, but the fluid is clean. When I took the pan off for the first time ever 2K miles ago, the pan was the cleanest one I have ever seen in person. Everything was on the magnet. A little bit of material on the dipstick does not necessarily indicate a nasty transmission.

If the fluid is really dark or opaque, that's another story. The magnet may be loaded up and a lot of stuff is staying in suspension. That's a bad situation. Clean fluid with just a few specks of clutch material is nothing to worry about though.

That said, at 44K with likely no trans service done, I'd go ahead and do that so you can keep the transmission in good shape. Waiting for ATF to get nasty is waiting too long.

 

[901Memphis]

Better yet just put a filter mag on the spin on tranny filter.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Better yet just put a filter mag on the spin on tranny filter.

A filter-mag is marginally better than nothing, but it doesn't come anywhere close to the performance of $5 worth of strong ceramics from the hardware store.

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Better yet just put a filter mag on the spin on tranny filter.

A filter-mag is marginally better than nothing, but it doesn't come anywhere close to the performance of $5 worth of strong ceramics from the hardware store.


I think the filter mag is better. Stronger magnetic field as oil is passing it instead of just whats in the sump.

I am interested to see the iron count in my uoa on my Buick when i check it for coolant.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I think the filter mag is better. Stronger magnetic field as oil is passing it instead of just whats in the sump.

Like I said, it's not useless but it is an overpriced gimmick. The magnetic flux is shorted out by the surface of the filter (unless the filter body is not steel?) so it is almost useless. You'd get far better effect if the fluid passed through the flux field.

Also, when you have magnets in the pan/reservoir, there is a large quantity of fluid directly in the field. That type of filtering happens 24hrs a day and is extremely effective at pulling out sub-micron particles.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Magnets are not really needed. The filter does that job and if anything, it just prevents particles from getting to the filter. So with magnets, you have to completely drop the pan and manually clean every magnetic surface... rather than just spinning off the filter. Likewise, doing a non-forced flush runs all the exported fluid through the filter... so anything that does not get past the filter is left in the pan.

You still seem to misunderstand the filtering requirements of hydraulic and gear systems. There is no better filter than a magnet in the sump and that's why every gearbox & transmission comes with at least one in the system. The spin-on bypass filter that Subaru uses (a rarity in automotive) is an excellent filter compared to the norm but it cannot catch the same material that a magnet does.

So yes, magnets are absolutely needed in the transmission. Adding magnetic filtering reduces the quantity of circulating wear-particles and therefor the production of new wear material. What you want or do does not change that.

Also, adding filter capacity (say, a magnet or inline Magnefine) does not defeat the purpose of another filter in the system (the bypass, spin-on), they both continue to function in tandem. The added filtration capacity leads to extended fluid life.


Yeah, but lining your transmission pan with additional magnets does not do any significant to the life of the tranny. It just creates a bigger mess to deal with when you actually do service the tranny. Use the magnet in the pan, that is fine. I do not think an additional inline Mag filter will do much harm or good so do whatever one wished with that... just do not go adding a bunch of dollar-store magnets to the pan. It only creates a mess. If there was some significant benefit, I think Honda would have placed giant magnets on every single V6... and other manufacturers would have added more magnets. The one is fine... it is included... it is not bad to drop the pan every so often and clean. Just do not go crazy.

And this is what I consider bonkers maintenance. There is something class a point of diminishing return... and more is not better.

 

[Wheel]

The atf in my 09 Legacy with 4eat was the same clearish color at 30,000 mi. I did the drain and fill using Subaru's atf HP. I believe that the atf HP is required from 07 on due to friction material changes. I plan to do another drain and fill at 45,000 mi. So far. the atf is still fairly red, making me think the factory fill is a little different than what comes off the shelf. There is no external factory filter on the 09. I'm not worried about that, my last 4eat held up for 15 years with no filter, and some towing. just change the fluid regularly.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Yeah, but lining your transmission pan with additional magnets does not do any significant to the life of the tranny.

It absolutely does. Especially when you consider the more-complete fluid flush you can accomplish with the pan off and the proper cleaning you can do of the OEM magnet and pan.

Just cause it's better doesn't mean you have to do it. I do it because I can.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: Wheel
There is no external factory filter on the 09.

Ouch, sorry to hear that. I'm guessing it was dropped on the 3rd-gen SH Forester?

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: martinq

It absolutely does. Especially when you consider the more-complete fluid flush you can accomplish with the pan off and the proper cleaning you can do of the OEM magnet and pan.

Just cause it's better doesn't mean you have to do it. I do it because I can.


Source?
Prove to me that more magnets trap more material than the OEM equipment and a proper tranny fluid change routine. I was to see empirical results.

It is not 'better'... it is just more work...more places to clean. You are just spreading out the same mess. Consider it material urban sprawl. Rather than having any magnetic material going to the single magnet ring, you have it going everywhere. From a transmission longevity standpoint, more magnets don't matter, better fluid change regiments, changing the filer and the occasional drop the the pan is all that is needed.