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#3195887 - 11/23/13 05:19 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Miller88]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 8048
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Ever get behind one of these? Burns your nostrils like acetone!

I never was near a DEF equipped truck that smelled bad.

Maybe the one you encountered had some kind of problem with the DEF system.
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#3195893 - 11/23/13 05:25 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 8699
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
The DEF system is a awesome money maker in the parts department when someone puts diesel in the DEF. You have to replace every component of the system that touches the fluid, and Ford refuses to cover any of it under any sort of customer assistance program. Last one we did was around $10,000 customer pay.

What really sucks is when a customer puts DEF in the diesel. On the new 6.7 there is a kit Ford has for that purpose that includes new pump, lines, injectors. Parts alone is around $12,000 and again no assistance is provided to the customer.

FWIW the 2 caps are clearly marked Diesel and DEF. The Diesel is green and the DEF cap is blue.
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#3196014 - 11/23/13 08:01 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
eljefino Offline


Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 29138
Loc: ME
^ Jeez louise. Are they both behind the same filler door?

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#3196038 - 11/23/13 08:19 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 8589
Loc: Buffalo, NY
I think the DEF tanks on the 2012 Freightliners we have at work are 5gal. Not sure how long it lasts, but we have a DEF refueling system at the fuel island. I know the engines either cut-off or go into limp mode if you run the DEF tank out.

I just cannot imagine WHY anyone would want a turbo diesel in their normal, every day passenger vehicle in the US, in 2013.

DEF is expensive and the vehicle won't run w/out it.

Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline.

The emissions systems on diesels seem to be crazy complicated and expensive.. All that an you pay all that extra $ just to have the diesel? Yeah.. No thanks.
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#3196132 - 11/23/13 10:11 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: eljefino]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 8699
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
Originally Posted By: eljefino
^ Jeez louise. Are they both behind the same filler door?


Yes, but the caps are different colors and different diameters. The nozzle for the DEF clicks into the filler neck to prevent spilling. However you can't fix stupid.
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1995 Ford Mustang GT

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#3196546 - 11/24/13 10:51 AM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 2282
Loc: Central Iowa
Agree, JTK. If anyone buys a diesel vehicle now, they better have a serious need for one. If they are doing it to satisfy some ego trip and have a big "C" on the back window of their pickup, etc, they really like separating money from their wallet. I have no choice in needing diesel engines. But, for my class 8 truck needs, there is loopholes to the regulations. I ordered a 2013 Freightliner and put in a factory rebuilt pre-emission Detroit engine in it. Got to avoid all the emission stuff, avoid the federal excise tax on new equipment, and saved $40K over the price of a comparably spec'd new semi truck with all the emissions stuff.

For my pickup needs, I am quite comfortable with gasoline versions. The DEF/SCR/DPF game is not one I want to play at this time. I did do a diesel in a 2006 Jeep Liberty. That was a very good choice. Most Liberty's are lucky to get 20-21 mpg with the standard 3.7 gas engine. The 2.8L diesel in mine will bust 32 mpg on road trips, and has as much torque as many small V8's. But that was all pre DPF/DEF/SCR. Can't see doing anything like that now given the new emissions stuff. Only if absolutely necessary.
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#3196566 - 11/24/13 11:18 AM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Dually
Down the road I'm looking into a BMW 328D or a Audi Q5 TDI

The smaller cars like Jetta, Gulf, Beetle don't use this fluid. Neither does the new Mazda6 diesel. They might be worth considering as alternatives and save ~$5 per 10,000 miles.

Here's an educational video for refilling the Chevy diesel's exhaust tank. Never thought an exhaust would need fluid (almost sounds like a scam) - http://youtu.be/eY-rLmSwWQU

Chevy's diesel let's you go 700 miles on empty DEF tank, but you're limited to 55-65 maximum speed.


Edited by blackman777 (11/24/13 11:24 AM)

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#3197237 - 11/25/13 05:47 AM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
Fleetmon Offline


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 1073
Loc: Pa
I certainly don't mind my 4500 lb SUV cruising at 80 MPH and getting 28 MPG.....THAT is the reason I went with diesel....that and the hills I climb. Gasoline versions of my X average around 21 MPG at their best....in my area due to the hills they'll get around 19. I commute 150 miles round trip per day and fuel savings PLUS vehicle comfort means a lot. Sure, I could buy something smaller that gets 45 MPG+ but life is too short to subject myself to that kind of punishment at my age.....been there and done it! We've been through the hybrids (what a joke) and TDI's....nice but too small and the rest of the "economy" cars.

I've been around diesels all of my life and have gone through mechanical injection to electronically controlled, to EGR-equipped, to catalytic convertors to DPF's....it's all about maintenance.....if you maintain them like you're supposed to then you won't have any more trouble out of them than you will with an overworked gasoline engine.

Most of the people that don't like them (DPF-equipped engines)(and this includes fleet owners/operators) either don't maintain them properly, idle them too often, use the wrong engine oil, or just plain forget to fill the DPF tank.....pure stupidity/ignorance is the single biggest culprit that causes DPF's to get a bad name.
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#3197731 - 11/25/13 01:40 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: JTK]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 256
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: JTK
I just cannot imagine WHY anyone would want a turbo diesel in their normal, every day passenger vehicle in the US, in 2013.

DEF is expensive and the vehicle won't run w/out it.

Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline.

The emissions systems on diesels seem to be crazy complicated and expensive.. All that an you pay all that extra $ just to have the diesel? Yeah.. No thanks.


Agreed. I wouldn't mind owning a pre-2007 EPA emissions standards diesel though. The fuel economy would probably make up for the price differential (which didn't really exist until, you guessed it, ULSD with EPA'07).
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2000 Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (4.0L OHV) - QSUD 5W-30/MC FL1A
1996 Chevrolet Impala SS - M1 0W-40/M1-201

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#3197738 - 11/25/13 01:42 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Fleetmon]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 256
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
I certainly don't mind my 4500 lb SUV cruising at 80 MPH and getting 28 MPG.....THAT is the reason I went with diesel....that and the hills I climb. Gasoline versions of my X average around 21 MPG at their best....in my area due to the hills they'll get around 19. I commute 150 miles round trip per day and fuel savings PLUS vehicle comfort means a lot. Sure, I could buy something smaller that gets 45 MPG+ but life is too short to subject myself to that kind of punishment at my age.....been there and done it! We've been through the hybrids (what a joke) and TDI's....nice but too small and the rest of the "economy" cars.

I've been around diesels all of my life and have gone through mechanical injection to electronically controlled, to EGR-equipped, to catalytic convertors to DPF's....it's all about maintenance.....if you maintain them like you're supposed to then you won't have any more trouble out of them than you will with an overworked gasoline engine.

Most of the people that don't like them (DPF-equipped engines)(and this includes fleet owners/operators) either don't maintain them properly, idle them too often, use the wrong engine oil, or just plain forget to fill the DPF tank.....pure stupidity/ignorance is the single biggest culprit that causes DPF's to get a bad name.


Clean the DPF filter you mean? And fill the DEF tank (though that comes along with a nice engine power derate or failure to start)?
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2000 Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (4.0L OHV) - QSUD 5W-30/MC FL1A
1996 Chevrolet Impala SS - M1 0W-40/M1-201

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#3197820 - 11/25/13 02:52 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Dually]
Fleetmon Offline


Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 1073
Loc: Pa
I've never had the occasion to have to have a DPF cleaned and/or replaced in my assortment of fleet vehicles other than three under warranty. It's not something I worry about.

Gosh - it is hard to add DEF isn't it?

Those that don't work with it (including those that don't want to) will never understand....they are of the same breed of people that swore EGR's would be the death of engines, swore you could NEVER run engine oil past 3k miles, that just KNEW no-lead gasoline was going to cause millions of engines to bite the dust, and on and on and on.....bottom line is you either get it or you don't.

And the complicated emission controls? EGR's, temperature sensors, automatic timing, catalysts/DPF's......sounds like a lot of the stuff is pretty much the same bewtween gas and diesel.


Edited by Fleetmon (11/25/13 03:03 PM)
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#3197977 - 11/25/13 05:47 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Fleetmon]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 256
Loc: Chicago suburbs
The nice thing about pre '07 EPA diesels are that they're quite tolerant of different fuels (just like Rudolf Diesel's prototype which was capable of running off coal dust). Hence people's conversions to used vegetable oil.

It will just take a little bit of time for everyone to get used to SCR, at least in the passenger-car market. The class 8 market has tolerated it fairly well, somewhat to Navistar's dismay circa 2-4 years ago. Still, the system adds considerable weight to the vehicle, but I imagine it will end up being a very good thing in the end, with more raw power able to be extracted from the engine.
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2000 Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (4.0L OHV) - QSUD 5W-30/MC FL1A
1996 Chevrolet Impala SS - M1 0W-40/M1-201

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#3198020 - 11/25/13 06:22 PM Re: Diesel Exhaust fluid [Re: Fleetmon]
blackman777 Offline


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 981
Loc: Santa Ana, California
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
EGR's, temperature sensors, automatic timing, catalysts/DPF's......sounds like a lot of the stuff is pretty much the same bewtween gas and diesel.

I was about to post the same..... Gasoline cars have all the same emissions controls as a Volkswagen Jetta/Beetle/Gulf TDI. There's no material difference (except most gasoline cars are designed to prevent evaporative emissions from the tank).

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