European pickup trucks

[supton]

Depends upon what the intent of camping is. I do believe the original intent behind the word was simply someplace to lay your head when not home. As such i generally make no judgement about what people consider camping.

Me, I largely want to camp as a way to control costs while on family vacation. I'm not 100% sure I truly save money doing so, but I think I Ike it better than parking in front of the TV in a hotel at the end of the day. This summer I paid $45 per night camping; I just did a trip and did it for $25/night. For a family four it'd be at least $100 per night. I just have to ignore the insane drop in fuel economy...

Personally I love my diesel stick shift wagon, and I would like to keep it, but it is feeling it's age. The four door truck of today reminds me of yesterday's minivan, and the preceding land yacht station wagon.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
You have obviously not seen an episode of Top Gear.

First off, they don't have massive caravans (the British term for a camper.) They tend to tow them with vehicles that have a four cylinder diesel engine. Maybe a small SUV or even a Range Rover.

Is it really camping if you have a 30' trailer with a furnace, A/C and a large flat screen TV.

I would ask those with massive RVs the same question. Do you ever go camping. Because pulling up in a smaller version of your home really isn't camping, is it?

Originally Posted By: Number21
I still don't get it. You guys act like everybody in Europe is poor. My F350 gets 16mpg and I'm at WOT all the time. The Brazilian version gets a 3.9L Cummins and probably gets more than 20mpg. What would be wrong with that? No, I don't need an F350 to get groceries, but, I do need it for other things and it would be much more wasteful and expensive to just leave it parked and drive a second smaller car.

How do people tow large trailers, boats, or RVs? What do they tow cars with? Does nobody go camping in Europe? Nobody owns a boat? Just because a car might sorta do those things doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job. What about commercial vehicles? People that WORK for a living? I certainly wouldn't want to build a house with a Sprinter. Or do anything a farmer might do. How do they move horses and cattle? Nothing has a 5th wheel?

I sell vintage Mercury outboard motors and parts for a living and I'm constantly sending things over to Europe. Those things drink fuel like it's 1973 and you need somehthing to tow them with. I'm crating up a 150hp inline six with three carbs right now for the Netherlands, it easily burns 18 gallons an hour at WOT...

Sure is. I sit around the fire at night. No internet. No phones. No cable. I hike, see new places and sleep well at night.

I spent time in the Army and on Submarines in the Navy. I am done being uncomfortable. Especially with the kids. If it gets cold or rains we stay clean.

I spend time with the kids and wife away from everything else.

Might not be camping to you, but it is to lots of people. Are you here to judge too?

It would be like me saying to people who haven't hiked up to the top of Mt. Rainier "Oh you just went to Camp Muir, some lowly mountain or just on a nature trail? You really aren't hiking"
I would never think of doing that, different strokes for different folks...

Why are folks here so judgmental?

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Safe towing can be done with small cars if one uses low speed and common sense.
http://www.cornwallcaravantowingservices.co.uk/0_0_0_0_694_262_csupload_45389264.jpg
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8971/dsc00008ti7.jpg
http://www.superpanda.de/dateien/posts/183370/CIMG7995.JPG


So why would you buy a tool for the job where you have to go really slow and careful the entire time? If you have to do that you bought the wrong tool! If I was a cop and saw any of the pics you posted, that person would get a hefty fine, and they would not be allowed to continue due to being unsafely overloaded. Just because you can tow something with a car doesn't mean you should!

Even if you can tow a camper with a little car like that I don't want to be in that little car with 4 or more people that have been camping. My buddy tows a heavy boat with his FWD Ford Escape, basically a car with an SUV body. It gets the job done but it is definitely the wrong tool. Hard to stop, hard to start, and it puts a ton of stress on the vehicle. Only a 17' boat!

Originally Posted By: javacontour

Is it really camping if you have a 30' trailer with a furnace, A/C and a large flat screen TV.

I would ask those with massive RVs the same question. Do you ever go camping. Because pulling up in a smaller version of your home really isn't camping, is it?

Does it matter? Call it a portable hotel, I don't care. If somebody wants to do that and has the money for it there is no reason they shouldn't. If Europeans want to suffer and drive unsafe vehicles because they let their government dictate gas prices, more power to them, but don't act like we are doing something wrong over here.

Yes, we are big fat rich wasteful Americans. If we have it why shouldn't we spend it? Why do people drive giant pickups to work by themselves? Because they are extremely comfortable to drive and much much safer than any car could be. Driving my F350 is like driving a living room. Better ride quality than my friend's BMW. Guess what happens if I hit somebody in a Prius with my 8000lb truck? They are going to DIE.

Is it different if somebody is driving a Ferrari, a European car, that gets 10mpg and cost a million dollars? We don't have a lot of those over here...so I guess they must be stupid?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: supton
Depends upon what the intent of camping is. I do believe the original intent behind the word was simply someplace to lay your head when not home. As such i generally make no judgement about what people consider camping.

Me, I largely want to camp as a way to control costs while on family vacation. I'm not 100% sure I truly save money doing so, but I think I Ike it better than parking in front of the TV in a hotel at the end of the day. This summer I paid $45 per night camping; I just did a trip and did it for $25/night. For a family four it'd be at least $100 per night. I just have to ignore the insane drop in fuel economy...

Personally I love my diesel stick shift wagon, and I would like to keep it, but it is feeling it's age. The four door truck of today reminds me of yesterday's minivan, and the preceding land yacht station wagon.


Just reread what I wrote; what I meant to say is that it would cost at least $100 a night at a hotel for a family of four.

 

[Number21]

I would like to know from the haters, if it is so wasteful to drive my pickup truck to the grocery store, do you think it is less wasteful to leave it parked and drive an entirely different vehicle? And then leave that other vehicle sitting when I need the truck? Is that really better? It's definitely not cheaper even if you save some gas.

 

[supton]

It could be cheaper having two, if you drive enough. Buy one, then buy the next. Then drive the pair for a long time. That was my plan, anyhow.

 

[expat]

Having spent just about half my adult life the 'other' side of the Atlantic, I might have some insight.
In Europe, if you buy a Bed, Furniture or other large items from a Big Box store and you don't have it delivered, it's common to 'Borrow' a Van from the store where the purchase was made.
kind of like Home Depot do here.
If you work in construction, the Flat bed, Cab over, truck is the normal work horse. Other trades might use a Van like the common Ford Transit.
If you have a Horse or Race car for instance, you might Tow with a SUV like a Range Rover or Nissan Patrol.
Or, if you have a good deal of money (and it seems many people over there have these days) You could get a purpose made vehicle such as one of these http://img.machinio.com/autoline/10122610.jpg
Travel Trailers tend to be small, and can easily be towed with a regular Sedan car.
Larger Travel Trailers (as we see here in NA) tend to be used by Circus people, Carnival people and the Roma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_%28Romani_subgroup%29
and there may be some stigma!

Summer Houses, and country cottages tend to be used far more for Vacation get-a-ways than RV's or Trailers (Due to density of population, there may not be a whole lot of open wilderness to park your RV when you get to where you want to be)

If you renovate, and have a large amount of garbage to get rid of it's common to rent a Skip or Dumpster and have it removed when full or your project is over.

Sand or Aggregate is normally delivered in a large fabric bag unloaded by Hiab truck at your worksite.

When I first came to America 30 years ago I was told I would need a Pick up, as I intended to build a house in a rural area.
At first I could not understand why, then I realized that I would be doing a whole bunch of stuff myself, as many hauling services would be hard or expensive to obtain.
It galled me to get a full sized American Truck and suffer poor fuel economy (I remember one Dealer boasted I would get 20 mpg from a truck, a figure that filled me with Horror) I ended up with a long box Datsun which met my needs as a hauler and personal transport with acceptable millage.
I have tended to stay with small PU's ever since.
Friends from Europe that visit find it kind of cool and typically American!

 

[Spazdog]

At least once a week, I will install a HD truck that has never worked as an HD truck.

Just Friday, I installed on an F-350 Lariat Diesel. The bed did not have a single scratch in it, the receiver hitch still had all it's powder coat on it. It didn't have a fifth wheel nor did it appear one had ever been installed.

I wasn't offended. I just thought to myself what an unfortunate way to spend your money and went about my business making money. He gets all of what... 12-14 mpg to do all the work a Ford Fiesta could do. Plus two extra tires to replace, more expensive brakes, more motor oil, DEF....etc.... But hey! He's happy and perhaps he's compensated for some other shortcoming

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
He gets all of what... 12-14 mpg to do all the work a Ford Fiesta could do. Plus two extra tires to replace, more expensive brakes, more motor oil, DEF....etc.... But hey! He's happy and perhaps he's compensated for some other shortcoming

People don't seem to understand this. Modern trucks are very comfortable to drive! That is why people use them as cars. Just like a Mercedes. It cost more, and people like to pay it, because it is so much nicer. You honestly couldn't pay me to drive a Fiesta. Not as comfortable, not as powerful, not as cool, not as safe. People don't have to be compensating for something to drive a big truck! They have the money, so they want to spend it. That's very reasonable. I am by no means rich but I can very easily afford to own and drive a giant truck.

Should I feel bad too because I live in a house and some people live in 1 bedroom apartments? I must be trying to compensate for something...I don't even share my room with anybody.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Why are folks here so judgmental?


I don't know but it seems to be the new norm, not just here but everywhere. If i don't like it then you shouldn't do it, have it, use it, drive it, etc.

If i am not paying for it i could care less less, unfortunately some people don't see things that simple.
They think in very convoluted ways e.g. if that pick up get poor fuel economy then that leaves less for me and my econobox and drives the price up, so darn right you shouldn't have it.

That kind of thinking opens Pandora's box.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Why are folks here so judgmental?


I don't know but it seems to be the new norm, not just here but everywhere. If i don't like it then you shouldn't do it, have it, use it, drive it, etc.

If i am not paying for it i could care less less, unfortunately some people don't see things that simple.
They think in very convoluted ways e.g. if that pick up get poor fuel economy then that leaves less for me and my econobox and drives the price up, so darn right you shouldn't have it.

That kind of thinking opens Pandora's box.


Roger that! I think maybe I get a bit upset and here is why.

The wife and I have our own child, but decided for the second one we would adopt out of foster care. Which we did. This beautiful little girl is not the same as us. That is to say she is not the same race. I hear little comments from time to time and see people look but I don't care.

So when I come on here and see the narrow minded views and how people feel bad for someone who bought a truck I think "What business is it to you? They paid for it, they pay the insurance they pay the extra for the gas. It is nobody's business unless you think you are better than someone."

I can't imagine what some of these folks would think about my family.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
He gets all of what... 12-14 mpg to do all the work a Ford Fiesta could do. Plus two extra tires to replace, more expensive brakes, more motor oil, DEF....etc.... But hey! He's happy and perhaps he's compensated for some other shortcoming

People don't seem to understand this. Modern trucks are very comfortable to drive! That is why people use them as cars. Just like a Mercedes. It cost more, and people like to pay it, because it is so much nicer. You honestly couldn't pay me to drive a Fiesta. Not as comfortable, not as powerful, not as cool, not as safe. People don't have to be compensating for something to drive a big truck! They have the money, so they want to spend it. That's very reasonable. I am by no means rich but I can very easily afford to own and drive a giant truck.

Should I feel bad too because I live in a house and some people live in 1 bedroom apartments? I must be trying to compensate for something...I don't even share my room with anybody.


I sincerely doubt a 1 ton would be more comfortable than a half ton. Just from the spring rates of the rear axle.

Plus the extra two tires on the rear makes it difficult to maneuver.
But I don't begrudge him for having the vehicle. It's just funny to me.

I like trucks too. But I just couldn't justify having to hypermile to try to squeak out 20mpg. Or not being able to park it in my garage without disassembling my work bench. Or paying $100+ at the pump to go the same distance or less than my Mazda.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted By: expat
Having spent just about half my adult life the 'other' side of the Atlantic, I might have some insight.


Pretty well what happens down here. Lots of people have a ute or pickup, and nearly every car has a towbar, and most people have a small trailer - the utes being based on Aussie cars, and Japanese pickups. I can't imagine why anyone living in suburbia would need something as huge as an American pickup. They are out there, mainly just status symbols, but you do see them on the open roads pulling a big load, but around town they'd be useless. As you said, need building materials and you go and get it with your trailer or get it delivered...often they will supply a trailer free of charge., and as most cars have a towbar, that's not a problem.

Commercially, builders, plumbers and sparkies use a Toyota Hi Ace or similar Japanese van...for security reasons. Concrete guys and plasterers use a small Japanese truck. When I worked at the local bike shop we had a Transit pickup with tail lift. We could fit 3 quads on the back, or usually a couple of quads and a couple of bikes or a ride on. We would go onto farms for pickup and delivery, often on muddy tracks and it would still cruise at 140kph on the road.

Oh, and every vehicle apart from the Aussie utes would be diesel powered.

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog

I sincerely doubt a 1 ton would be more comfortable than a half ton. Just from the spring rates of the rear axle.

I like trucks too. But I just couldn't justify having to hypermile to try to squeak out 20mpg. Or not being able to park it in my garage without disassembling my work bench.

You're still judging people without knowing how they use it. First of all you can't buy a half ton diesel, except maybe for the 2014 model year. I park mine in my shop, which is 8600 square feet. I could park an 18 wheeler in there. And my truck gets better mileage than my Mom's 2001 BMW car with a V8. Her car gets better mileage than the ones with V12s.

I don't "have" to hipermile. I can afford as much diesel as I want. All of the judgements being made here about trucks can be said about any car other than a deathtrap economy car. For that matter you are being ridiculous even if you drive a Geo Metro, you could be riding a bike. How dare you.

 

[Number21]

Another thing to point out, we are forced to drive large trucks in the US by the EPA. MFGs are always building trucks and packages that are extra heavy in GVW simply to avoid various emissions rules, not because anybody actually wants to haul stuff. If we had the option to buy a small pickup truck with a small diesel engine we very much would.

If my truck was any smaller I would have to take yearly emissions tests, pay for them, and make sure all of my emissions controls are always operating at 100%. Just being 1 pound over the limit, I do not.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Number21
Driving my F350 is like driving a living room. Better ride quality than my friend's BMW. Guess what happens if I hit somebody in a Prius with my 8000lb truck? They are going to DIE.


Yep, I kind of knew how much you cared about others on the roads and in general, too.

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Yep, I kind of knew how much you cared about others on the roads and in general, too.


Once again you are assuming something you don't understand.

How much I care about other people on the road is completely irrelevant. The fact is much of the vehicles on US roads are trucks. If you drive a car, and get hit by a truck, you are going to die. I don't care how many airbags you have. If you want to be safe in a world full of trucks, you need to also drive a truck. A vehicle that weighs less than 3000lbs simply cannot be safe against something that weighs 3 times as much.

And again, if I can afford it, what business is it of yours what I drive? Please explain why you think you are the authority on what other people drive? You make it sound like I am using tax dollars to buy my fuel. Truth is, I'm paying more road tax than you are.

 

[javacontour]

Now this I can see.

Originally Posted By: Number21
Another thing to point out, we are forced to drive large trucks in the US by the EPA. MFGs are always building trucks and packages that are extra heavy in GVW simply to avoid various emissions rules, not because anybody actually wants to haul stuff. If we had the option to buy a small pickup truck with a small diesel engine we very much would.

If my truck was any smaller I would have to take yearly emissions tests, pay for them, and make sure all of my emissions controls are always operating at 100%. Just being 1 pound over the limit, I do not.


The judgmental thing goes both ways. I can't count up all the times I've heard, "you drive that small car" or similar comments.

I am certainly not suggesting folks can't drive what they want. I am simply pointing out that many of those complaining about the price of fuel are the ones "driving what they want."

Everyone drive what you want. After all, if you want to pay $100 for the fuel to go 500 miles, you are free to choose the amount of cash you are willing to burn.

I find it's more cost effective to drive small, 4 cylinder cars and to rent a van or what ever I might need for the one or two times a year we manage to get all the teens and adults in sync to go on a family trip.

 

[supton]

How much is a van rental? I tried to see what a small rental car cost would be once, and it was like $250+ for a week for the smallest of the small. I'd expect a van rental to be like a vehicle payment plus. Do that more than twice in a year, and I'd have to wonder what the savings really is.

In the spirit of this thread I took the truck to work today. It's funny, it's better and worse than my commuter Jetta. It shrugs off cracks in the road vastly better; but bounces all over the place on the big stuff that the Jetta shrugs off. Won't even touch the handling; I refuse to drive the truck fast enough to find out. But the truck settles down with the family on board though, especially once we start tossing stuff into the bed; and considering the family refuses to ride in the Jetta I'll give it a win there. Jury is out on if we prefer the Camry to the Tundra on trips--but I think it's leaning towards the Tundra.

No one answered my question from before; IMO the four door trucks are kinda like the land yacht station wagons that died off in the 70's.

As I contemplate what to do with my Jetta I'm seriously thinking of not doing anything--just run the truck for a year or more as my primary driver. I know I'd be a bad person, spending all that money on gas, but if I'm going to justify my "need" for such a vehicle it might be cheaper--in my case--to not bother with a second vehicle, on the basis of total cost for miles driven. I mean, buying a reliable high mpg vehicle isn't cheap; it'd take a few years to recoup the savings in gas.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: supton
How much is a van rental? I tried to see what a small rental car cost would be once, and it was like $250+ for a week for the smallest of the small. I'd expect a van rental to be like a vehicle payment plus. Do that more than twice in a year, and I'd have to wonder what the savings really is.

In the spirit of this thread I took the truck to work today. It's funny, it's better and worse than my commuter Jetta. It shrugs off cracks in the road vastly better; but bounces all over the place on the big stuff that the Jetta shrugs off. Won't even touch the handling; I refuse to drive the truck fast enough to find out. But the truck settles down with the family on board though, especially once we start tossing stuff into the bed; and considering the family refuses to ride in the Jetta I'll give it a win there. Jury is out on if we prefer the Camry to the Tundra on trips--but I think it's leaning towards the Tundra.

No one answered my question from before; IMO the four door trucks are kinda like the land yacht station wagons that died off in the 70's.

As I contemplate what to do with my Jetta I'm seriously thinking of not doing anything--just run the truck for a year or more as my primary driver. I know I'd be a bad person, spending all that money on gas, but if I'm going to justify my "need" for such a vehicle it might be cheaper--in my case--to not bother with a second vehicle, on the basis of total cost for miles driven. I mean, buying a reliable high mpg vehicle isn't cheap; it'd take a few years to recoup the savings in gas.


I thought about driving the truck today, but eh, I don't feel like it. It requires me moving car seats and booster seats around.

I still think you should find a supercharged Regal. That way you can turn it into a nice sleeper.

Seriously just drive the truck for awhile. I don't miss my Jetta TDI, but mine might have been a bad egg. Never really cared for the drive train and some of the interior pieces would peel, but when it was running right. I could see anywhere from 45 to 50 mpgs on the highway. I just couldn't keep it running right.

.