What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

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I just stumbled onto this thread and have thoroughly enjoyed reading the entire thing. It has been like reading a good mystery novel... Filled with questions, suspense and humor. I am glad that Adam was able to get some help from Honda and it does seems clear that the MM is over calculating the oil life remaining. One thing I never really saw discussed other than the last 2 pages was a UOA. So a few questions I have are...
1. If a UOA was done on oil after 5k miles early on in the cars life like (30k miles) would it have shown that the oil was still holding up?
2. Or a UOA from 7-8k miles?
3. My guess would be that the UOA would be fine... because the one side of the engine still looked good. If the oil was past its life wouldn't every part of the engine start wearing?
4. Do you guys think that in this engine with VCM activated for extended periods of highway driving using a full synthetic(Amsoil, M1, etc) and low miles on oil like 1-2k... would the engine begin to wear abnormally?
5. I guess I'm mostly thinking how can we decide when the wear was caused? Was it only after the oil worn out? or was it always wearing abnormally, just made worse by worn out oil?
 
My understanding is that the engine was being extrodinarily hard on the oil due to an apparent design flaw. That's exactly what a UOA will do, is give you a window into the condition of the oil. If a UOA had been done IMO it would have shown OCI's needed to be reduced.

That is what we've seen in UOA's with the GM DI engines for example, those things were unexpectedly tearing up oil, and GM ultimately cut the OLM duration by about half to combat it.
 
Originally Posted By: Sunnyinhollister
. . . . Honda designed the VCM to operate for extended periods of time under high load such as prolonged highway use at 75 mph

Completely false. The 3 cylinder mode only operates under light loads when the 3 cylinders are enough to keep the car moving constant velocity. When the customer presses on the pedal to accelerate then it goes back to 6 cylinders.
 
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
OP'S CHAPTER CLOSED:

He offered to reimburse me 70% of the $780.18..... he said that he would not be able to offer me anything like an extended warranty on future problems that might arise.

For this reason, the likelihood of future problems & costs from my wallet on a known-sludged engine, I would have asked for Honda to pay the full cost of repair. He likely would have complied since he knew he would not be on the hook for future costs.
 
For what it is worth, my 2011 Pilot LX 2WD's OLM light is on pace to light up at 15% by ~5200 miles. My current work commute is around 5 miles one way, through highway in the morning at about 65mph, and local stop and go after work. Weekend highway runs are about 50 miles per week but with quite a bit of idling w/ AC while waiting for a 2.5 year old to get buckled up in the car seat.

Before this, my previous commute pattern was 99% highway of ~20 miles one way, and could hit 20k miles per year with similar weekend routines. The OLM would lit up at nearly 9300 miles.

It seems I just need to change at 15% in order to change every 5k.

It appears that Honda's OLM algorithm now penalizes some type of usage more in the newer V6 VCM models?
 
Originally Posted By: SilverGGA
For what it is worth, my 2011 Pilot LX 2WD's OLM light is on pace to light up at 15% by ~5200 miles. My current work commute is around 5 miles one way, through highway in the morning at about 65mph, and local stop and go after work. Weekend highway runs are about 50 miles per week but with quite a bit of idling w/ AC while waiting for a 2.5 year old to get buckled up in the car seat.

Before this, my previous commute pattern was 99% highway of ~20 miles one way, and could hit 20k miles per year with similar weekend routines. The OLM would lit up at nearly 9300 miles.

It seems I just need to change at 15% in order to change every 5k.

It appears that Honda's OLM algorithm now penalizes some type of usage more in the newer V6 VCM models?


So Honda quietly programmed the OLM to be more conservative on the newer models?

My buddy has a 2009 Ridgeline, which does not have the VCM. Aside from reading all 30+ pages, is that engine at risk, or is it *only* the VCM models?
 
Originally Posted By: webfors

My buddy has a 2009 Ridgeline, which does not have the VCM. Aside from reading all 30+ pages, is that engine at risk, or is it *only* the VCM models?


This particular problem applies to the V6 w/ VCM.
 
The best advice if you have not already done that is to get rid of that car. While the engineering look and the feel of the entire car may be great, versatile, capable etc, the engine is absolute [censored]. I am a HONDA owner for over 20 years. I have pretty much had every car Honda made, but the 2010 Pilot that I had was a disaster from the engine engineering point of view. You can Google the VCM issues with 6cyl Accords and Pilots starting with year 2009. Needless to say Honda VCM for at least 2009 and 2010 cause severe cylinder engage-disengage banging, sever oil consumption, spark plug fouling, and making very expensive synthetics (that I use) very dirty within 1000KM. As soon as Honda replaced the shortblock on it, I got rid of it because soon after the replacement I noticed same noise symptoms that occurred on the previous engine just before it started to give me trouble. I have tried the 2013 Pilot with Earth Dreams Engine, but I can still feel and hear the cylinder deactivation mechanism. The idea of cylinder deactivation sounds nice but in a real-life application you are asking for trouble. Honda thanks, but no thanks.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
My buddy has a 2009 Ridgeline, which does not have the VCM. Aside from reading all 30+ pages, is that engine at risk, or is it *only* the VCM models?


Should be ok. The Accord V6 in the MT coupes don't have any issues that I'm aware of. Of course those don't have VCM either.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


Thanks for posting the pictures. Eye opener. I never had any Honda cars, but this is an engine to stay away from.
Good job on rescuing the engine. Sad that Honda is denying any problems. Every car maker have some dark side.


Lol another reading comprehension FAIL, or maybe just another Honda slam slipped in at the end of an old thread in an attempt to influence those who didn't read the whole thing.

What part of the dealer using a 5000 mile rated economy-oriented conventional oil for extended oil change intervals in an engine known to be hard on oil did you miss? Properly maintained (either use synthetics or shorter OCI's) and these engines last as long as any.
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


Thanks for posting the pictures. Eye opener. I never had any Honda cars, but this is an engine to stay away from.
Good job on rescuing the engine. Sad that Honda is denying any problems. Every car maker have some dark side.


Lol another reading comprehension FAIL, or maybe just another Honda slam slipped in at the end of an old thread in an attempt to influence those who didn't read the whole thing.

What part of the dealer using a 5000 mile rated economy-oriented conventional oil for extended oil change intervals in an engine known to be hard on oil did you miss? Properly maintained (either use synthetics or shorter OCI's) and these engines last as long as any.


It's not really a "5000 mile rated" oil. It's Mobil Super 5000 (or its predecessors) which are known to be high quality conventional oils equivalent to PYB or Castrol GTX. This was apparently an issue that would destroy almost any of the major oil company's standard offerings. This wasn't a problem only related to using Mobil Super 5000.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

It's not really a "5000 mile rated" oil. It's Mobil Super 5000 (or its predecessors) which are known to be high quality conventional oils equivalent to PYB or Castrol GTX. This was apparently an issue that would destroy almost any of the major oil company's standard offerings. This wasn't a problem only related to using Mobil Super 5000.


So, just how do YOU interpret the "5000"? lol

I wasn't slamming the oil. As I said with a proper OCI it would have been fine. The problem was not the oil but the combination of the oil choice and the OLM extended OCI's. Honda probably had at least a semi-syn in mind when programming the OLM, and on top of that, the OLM was not conservative enough. This is not an avoid that engine issue as the previous poster was postulating.

As for destroying the oil, I already said the engine is hard on oil. For any sane person that means shorten the OCI or use a synthetic. That is not a critique of Mobil Super 5000 just pointing out that it was a very poor choice for this application without changing the OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

It's not really a "5000 mile rated" oil. It's Mobil Super 5000 (or its predecessors) which are known to be high quality conventional oils equivalent to PYB or Castrol GTX. This was apparently an issue that would destroy almost any of the major oil company's standard offerings. This wasn't a problem only related to using Mobil Super 5000.


So, just how do YOU interpret the "5000"? lol

I wasn't slamming the oil. As I said with a proper OCI it would have been fine. The problem was not the oil but the combination of the oil choice and the OLM extended OCI's. Honda probably had at least a semi-syn in mind when programming the OLM, and on top of that, the OLM was not conservative enough. This is not an avoid that engine issue as the previous poster was postulating.

As for destroying the oil, I already said the engine is hard on oil. For any sane person that means shorten the OCI or use a synthetic. That is not a critique of Mobil Super 5000 just pointing out that it was a very poor choice for this application without changing the OCI.



The OLM treated it like they would an Accord or Civic engine, even though it was an engine that was tougher on the oil than they originally thought. They knew that the average user or shop would be using at least a standard off the shelf API SL 5W-20 like Pennzoil yellow bottle, Castrol GTX, Valvoline All-Climate, or Mobil (what a local dealer used last time I took my wife's car in).

As for "5000" there's been many discussion about what that means. The consensus was that the number was more or less a marketing gimmick that the chemists and engineers probably disavowed. It's ridiculously difficult to trace any sort of engine failure to a motor oil failure since they tend to result from cumulative effects. About the only guarantee that might be practical was Quaker State's one where they promised to repair any vehicle that suffered an oil related issue. OTOH - they required that QS be used exclusively and changed every 3000 miles or less with scrupulous receipts kept.
 
I know for awhile many Honda/Toyota dealers were using generic bulk oil. When I asked a toyo dealer what they used several years ago I was told, whatever the service mgr can order for the lowest amount. Honda dealers varied what they used as well. Which is a far cry from Mobil 5k. Now, the toyo dealer here uses toyo bulk oil which I believe is the same as M5k.

For awhile I was going to the Ford dealer for MC syn-blend and a MC oil filter with my Toyota. About 4-5 oil changes in a row there. But this last time went to the toyo dealer only since I wanted something looked at.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
I owned a 2003 Acura MDX with the V6 from new and it knocked at 90K Get rid of it and NEVER buy another Honda V6. BUT the Honda 4 bangers will run forever on 5K OCI's.


False, I happily run a Honda V6 and it is an automatic and I am almost at 150k and it is on pace to run 300 easily. @ 140k I am still on original Spark Plugs and even Timing belt and I credit the semi-syn MC 5w_20 for the extention of service cycle. Now perhaps you are referring to the auto-tragic transmission which there is some grains of truth but the engine on this Accord V6 is bullet proof with the right oil. In this case, it's 5w_20 MC syn-blend!
 
Originally Posted By: 06VtecV6
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
I owned a 2003 Acura MDX with the V6 from new and it knocked at 90K Get rid of it and NEVER buy another Honda V6. BUT the Honda 4 bangers will run forever on 5K OCI's.


False, I happily run a Honda V6 and it is an automatic and I am almost at 150k and it is on pace to run 300 easily. @ 140k I am still on original Spark Plugs and even Timing belt and I credit the semi-syn MC 5w_20 for the extention of service cycle. Now perhaps you are referring to the auto-tragic transmission which there is some grains of truth but the engine on this Accord V6 is bullet proof with the right oil. In this case, it's 5w_20 MC syn-blend!


240k in an Odyssey 3.5 V6. Minimal oil consumption (less than a quart every 5k) is the only problem I've encountered. 4-6k OCI, mostly bulk Pennzoil until about 18 months ago. MSHM since then with 1 run of PYB. When my wife took it in for state inspection in Feb. the owner of the shop was really surprised at what great shape it was in.

We're going to run it until the rust eats it or it gets wrecked, whichever comes first. That probably means another transmission rebuild and another timing belt service, but that's small change compared to a new van, or even a newer used one.
 
American Honda settles class-action suit over oil-burning claim

DETROIT -- American Honda Motor Co. has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over claims that it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements.

The settlement concerns all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accord, 2008-13 Odyssey, 2009-13 Pilot, 2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20131022/OEM11/131029975?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Edit: I just noticed this settlement exludes VCM cars. Is this a different problem??

-Dennis
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
American Honda settles class-action suit over oil-burning claim

DETROIT -- American Honda Motor Co. has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over claims that it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements.

The settlement concerns all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accord, 2008-13 Odyssey, 2009-13 Pilot, 2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20131022/OEM11/131029975?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Edit: I just noticed this settlement exludes VCM cars. Is this a different problem??

-Dennis



Wow-I knew they had problems but no idea how many cars were involved.
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


Thanks for posting the pictures. Eye opener. I never had any Honda cars, but this is an engine to stay away from.
Good job on rescuing the engine. Sad that Honda is denying any problems. Every car maker have some dark side.


Lol another reading comprehension FAIL, or maybe just another Honda slam slipped in at the end of an old thread in an attempt to influence those who didn't read the whole thing.

What part of the dealer using a 5000 mile rated economy-oriented conventional oil for extended oil change intervals in an engine known to be hard on oil did you miss? Properly maintained (either use synthetics or shorter OCI's) and these engines last as long as any.



Normally, I don't reply to idiots, but you own me an apology here.
 
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