Honda ATF change recommendations

[y_p_w]

I started a topic on vague recommendations, but I suppose this one has me stumped.

For my wife's 2002 Civic, the recommended ATF change period is 120,000 miles or 10 years. Now this is where the fun starts. I don't think it's ever been changed and my wife doesn't remember having this done.

The owners manual says that to do a "thorough flush", they recommend 4 complete drain and fills. The manual is odd - it says do it three times and then a final time. But then it says it should be "drained and refilled" according to the maintenance schedule. But it doesn't specify if this is a single drain and refill or the "flush" as they describe it.

Quote:
http://owners.honda.com/assets/OWNERLINK/Model/own_man/2002CivicSd.pdf

To thoroughly flush the
transmission, the technician
should drain and refill it with
Honda ATF-Z1, then drive the
vehicle a short distance. Do this
three times. Then drain and refill
the transmission a final time.

** ** **

The transmission should be drained
and refilled with new fluid according
to the time and distance recommen-
dations in the maintenance schedule.

Now if I had owned this car from the start, I probably would have done a single drain and fill every 30,000 miles. That may not be absolutely necessarily, but it would make me feel better.

And the M18 crush washer is $3 at a Honda dealer. Not sure why the huge price difference compared to an otherwise similarly made M14 washer for oil changes. I even remember when Honda autos drained out of a bolt that took the same crush washer.

 

[R2d2]

Don't think you'll be able to find Z1 anymore, just checked my preferred online dealer they don't carry it anymore. I had good results with Castrol ATF for japanese imports it met the Z1 spec.

 

[Brybo86]

i typically take the crush washer off, flip it around 180 degrees and use it again... going on 85k now, and 4 ATF changes. (obviously if it has a large crack in it I might reconsider, but the metal is soft and meant to bend not crack)

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: R2d2
Don't think you'll be able to find Z1 anymore, just checked my preferred online dealer they don't carry it anymore. I had good results with Castrol ATF for japanese imports it met the Z1 spec.

I got a coupon special for four quarts of DW-1 and a crush washer. The guy at the parts counter asked what vehicle before retrieving the washer. I'm sure some of the older cars use the M14. That's what I used on an '89 Integra.

I understand that DW-1 usually results in softer shifting. That shouldn't be a problem with my wife's driving style. I might be able to find the Castrol Multi-Import ATF, and I'm not too worried since it's out of warranty. OTOH - I generally use OEM fluids except for motor oil or where a generic ATF is specified.

Still - anyone know if a single drain and fill is what's actually specified in the maintenance schedule? Like I said, the OM mentions a "flush" but then says something about "drained and filled" according to the maintenance requirement. What I'm thinking of doing is buying another few quarts and just doing it twice in succession.

 

[davebarnum]

Four complete drain and fills sounds a bit redundant. You'll be draining lots of fresh fluid.

That being said, I am no expert so you may want to stick with what they say.

How about one drain and fill for the next four oil changes?

 

[meep]

accepted method is drain-fill-run, drain-fill-run, drain-fill-run. some drive a week. some drive a block. some idle for a couple of minutes, running through the gears, while it all mixes in the torque converter. IMO, the 5 minute idle in gear is fine.

even if you just start doing a drain-fill every 30k, that will probably be all you need to do for reasonable care. If you want to be thorough you could do 2-3 drain/fills now.

-m

 

[ThirdeYe]

We just picked up an '01 Civic AT with low mileage, and we do not know if it's ever been changed before. I highly disagree with Honda's recommendation of every 105,000 miles. We plan on doing it once a year, as it's very easy to do in those cars. I have already done one drain/refill and I plan on doing another this weekend as a precautionary measure. In my Acura, they recommended it every 30,000 miles so I just follow their recommendations in that case. I have no clue why they decided to go to the 105k interval... I've read about a lot of transmission failures in the '01, but I strongly suspect shorter intervals would greatly prolong the life of the transmission. Anyways, going back to your original question, I would do two or three initial drain/refills in your '02 Civic (with a little bit of driving in between each drain/refill session), then change the ATF again once every year or two. No affiliation, but I strongly prefer Amsoil ATF in the Hondas I've maintained. The Civics transmissions can get pretty hot, and I feel it's a better fit.

 

[R2d2]

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The only difference in the washers, at least for my Accord is the size with the ATF being the larger. Nothing IMO to justify the price difference.

 

[SatinSilver]

One drain/fill every 30k on an I4 should be fine according to a Honda tech another forum. Who works at a Chicago area dealer and seems to really know his stuff.

I'd wait 500 miles between drain/fills when completing 3-4 of them on a unit that's long over due for service. Slow, gentle cleaning works best imo. This from an auto talk radio show that sometimes gives good advice. I agree with them here. Lessens the chance of a small particle blocking one of the man small internal passages.

Here's a guy rebuilding his Accord trans:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140449

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: davebarnum
Four complete drain and fills sounds a bit redundant. You'll be draining lots of fresh fluid.

I agree with this but unless you can do a cooling-line flush this is the next best way. Sometimes it's expedient to spend the money on fluid rather than the extra hassle of accessing the cooling/filter lines. Each application is a little different.

 

[SevenBizzos]

Just a D&R every or every other oil change is fine. That seems like a lot of wasted fluid to me.

 

[Jim Allen]

Why not a cooler line change? At least the first time to start totally anew. Was easy on my '00 Accord. After that, a single D&F every 30 or 50K. OR just wait to another cooler line change at 60K. Or, do the full change and then install an inline filter in the cooler line and run to 60K.

IMO, a full cooler line change right now is the best way to go and wastes the least amount of oil

Oil... DW1 or Maxlife, or the Castrol.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: R2d2

The only difference in the washers, at least for my Accord is the size with the ATF being the larger. Nothing IMO to justify the price difference.

I found some place that sells aftermarket crush washers in bulk. Copper is cheap and aluminum even cheaper. You name it they probably have it - aluminum, copper, synthetic fiber, etc. Not only that, but a choice of widths like M18x22 and M18x24. I guess it's free shipping if you can manage to order at least $99 worth of stuff. If I ran a shop I'd probably be getting parts in bulk like this.

http://www.industrialpartshouse.com/category/Home:Automotive:Sealing_Washers:Fiber_Washers
http://www.industrialpartshouse.com/category/Home:Automotive:Sealing Washers:Metal Washers

M18x24 aluminum washers are 13 cents each. Fiber is even cheaper. It makes me wonder since I went to a Toyota dealer once to get a washer, and their fiber one was over $1. I know these aren't necessarily the same supplier as OEM, but it's not that big a deal to me. Over the years there probably isn't much I haven't used - mostly aluminum or OEM steel type, but also copper, fiber, and even nylon.

 

[The Critic]

OP - I have a ton of those washers and I can give you some. I bought a 50pk off eBay for $10 a while back.

The multiple drain and refills or "flush," is only applicable for certain repairs and/or if the transmission has been contaminated with a non-Honda fluid. For routine maintenance, only one drain and refill is required. This is why the subsequent ATF services are at 1/2 the original interval.

 

[stchman]

I just did an automatic transmission drain and refill on my brother's 2003 Accord.

The owner's manual called for Z-1, but Honda replaced Z-1 with DW-1 fluid.

The local Honda dealer was going to charge him $100 to pop the drain plug and fill up 3.5 quarts of DW-1.

We went up to the Honda dealer and bought 4 quarts of DW-1 @ $8 a quart and $2 for a crush washer for the drain plug. I think the total bill with tax was ~$37.

Draining out the fluid was the easy part, but putting the fluid back in was a pain as the dipstick tube is about as big around as a cigarette. I had to rig a skinny hose up to the ATF bottle and slowly put in 1 quart at a time.

I put in ~3.5 quarts and ran the engine until warm. Remember you check Honda automatics with the engine off.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: stchman
I just did an automatic transmission drain and refill on my brother's 2003 Accord.

The owner's manual called for Z-1, but Honda replaced Z-1 with DW-1 fluid.

The local Honda dealer was going to charge him $100 to pop the drain plug and fill up 3.5 quarts of DW-1.

We went up to the Honda dealer and bought 4 quarts of DW-1 @ $8 a quart and $2 for a crush washer for the drain plug. I think the total bill with tax was ~$37.

Draining out the fluid was the easy part, but putting the fluid back in was a pain as the dipstick tube is about as big around as a cigarette. I had to rig a skinny hose up to the ATF bottle and slowly put in 1 quart at a time.

I put in ~3.5 quarts and ran the engine until warm. Remember you check Honda automatics with the engine off.


It sounds like he had the V6 model. On those, there is a 17mm fill plug that is closer to the firewall. It is on super-tight, but once you remove it, it will make refill a breeze.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: stchman
I just did an automatic transmission drain and refill on my brother's 2003 Accord.

The owner's manual called for Z-1, but Honda replaced Z-1 with DW-1 fluid.

The local Honda dealer was going to charge him $100 to pop the drain plug and fill up 3.5 quarts of DW-1.

We went up to the Honda dealer and bought 4 quarts of DW-1 @ $8 a quart and $2 for a crush washer for the drain plug. I think the total bill with tax was ~$37.

Draining out the fluid was the easy part, but putting the fluid back in was a pain as the dipstick tube is about as big around as a cigarette. I had to rig a skinny hose up to the ATF bottle and slowly put in 1 quart at a time.

I put in ~3.5 quarts and ran the engine until warm. Remember you check Honda automatics with the engine off.


It sounds like he had the V6 model. On those, there is a 17mm fill plug that is closer to the firewall. It is on super-tight, but once you remove it, it will make refill a breeze.


Yes, his Accord is the 3.0L V6 model. I did some reading and people said there is a fill plug, but for the life of me I could not find it. Do only the 4-cyl models with AT have a fill plug?

 

[ThirdeYe]

In the Honda and Acura I've changed fluid on (both 4-cyl) they didn't have a fill plug. You filled them through the hole that the dipstick goes into.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: stchman
I just did an automatic transmission drain and refill on my brother's 2003 Accord.

The owner's manual called for Z-1, but Honda replaced Z-1 with DW-1 fluid.

The local Honda dealer was going to charge him $100 to pop the drain plug and fill up 3.5 quarts of DW-1.

We went up to the Honda dealer and bought 4 quarts of DW-1 @ $8 a quart and $2 for a crush washer for the drain plug. I think the total bill with tax was ~$37.

Draining out the fluid was the easy part, but putting the fluid back in was a pain as the dipstick tube is about as big around as a cigarette. I had to rig a skinny hose up to the ATF bottle and slowly put in 1 quart at a time.

I put in ~3.5 quarts and ran the engine until warm. Remember you check Honda automatics with the engine off.


It sounds like he had the V6 model. On those, there is a 17mm fill plug that is closer to the firewall. It is on super-tight, but once you remove it, it will make refill a breeze.


Yes, his Accord is the 3.0L V6 model. I did some reading and people said there is a fill plug, but for the life of me I could not find it. Do only the 4-cyl models with AT have a fill plug?

Nearly always a dipstick hole near the firewall. It's a really short dipstick but a fairly long plug. It helps to use a long funnel and to pour slowly. I got one that's maybe 2 ft long.

 

[yesthatsteve]

On the Odyssey of that vintage (5sp AT from '02 - early '04), that plug was replaced with an oil jet (basically a tube mounted in the hole) in an effort to prevent overheating of 2nd gear. IIRC, those have a 10mm bolt to hold it to the trans. housing. I don't know if it's the same in the Accord. In the Odyssey, it's almost straight down behind the battery, in the top of transmission housing. Look to see what's there.