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#3133911 - 09/23/13 09:17 PM Iron levels on UOA's
gregk24 Online   content


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 2733
Loc: FL, USA
This just popped into my mind and I got curious so here it goes...why is it that on many a Honda/Toyota UOA the iron levels are so low compared to other makes of cars? Do they use less iron when building the engines, or do they just wear better? Im not trying to knock on other brands, this is a serious question. Just curious thats all.
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#3133927 - 09/23/13 09:41 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
Quest Offline


Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 6356
Loc: beaver land EH?
iron in UOA typically comes from sources such as cylinder wall liners, ring and/or cylinder bore wear, etc.

This is not applicable if the bore is done with NIKASIL, which is gaining popularity in certain automotive engine designs.

Q.
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#3133946 - 09/23/13 10:00 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9186
Loc: Clovis, CA
I see the highest Iron numbers on Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30. Those two grades in that brand.

And incidentally, those two oils also log in the most noise complaints on this board too.

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#3133950 - 09/23/13 10:03 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Keep in mind that UOA ppm detects only normal wear and less so abnormal wear. Most toyota/honda engines still use steel liners. Not sure why the numbers would be lower though.
Good question.

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#3134005 - 09/23/13 11:54 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: Merkava_4]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 3048
Loc: Northeastern MT
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I see the highest Iron numbers on Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30. Those two grades in that brand.

And incidentally, those two oils also log in the most noise complaints on this board too.


Interesting correlation.
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#3134019 - 09/24/13 01:15 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 548
Loc: WV
It's scary the wealth of factual information one can find on the internet. Here's all you ever probably wanted to know on the topic: LINK. (Just tell them you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express haha) Honda/Toyota use a fiber or particle reinforced aluminum type alloy aka metal matrix composite(MMC)for their cylinder blocks and liners.

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#3134047 - 09/24/13 04:57 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
Falken Offline


Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
I am a newbie on this site, so before looking at other metals, I started learning how to read a UOA by looking at FE wear first.

I learned the "whys" of FE wear, then I moved on to Copper and learned the "whys" of Cu wear next and so on.

Now I can read a UOA ok I guess, and know most of the contaminants but not all the "whys" yet.

The final step is all your combined wear against the averages for that vehicle, to see exactly how well the chosen engine oil is working in your vehicle.
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#3134244 - 09/24/13 09:55 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan
Honda/Toyota use a fiber or particle reinforced aluminum type alloy aka metal matrix composite(MMC)for their cylinder blocks and liners.


Do you actually own Honda/Toyota cars? Most of them DON'T have composite liners.
And certainly no one makes blocks from MMC.

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#3134355 - 09/24/13 11:22 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2330
Loc: Magnolia, TX
My Honda has FRM liners with low Fe wear. Not sure about the Toyota's.
I think if you look at fuel dilution %, you might see a corresponding increase in Fe wear. The ME paper indirectly mentions that.
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#3134594 - 09/24/13 01:49 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: friendly_jacek]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 548
Loc: WV
Freindly_Jacek did you even bother reading the link I provided? You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, I see.

If not I'll quote this from John Lenny Jr's article for you, "Several automobile manufacturers have been successful in creating metal matrix
composites for production level engine cylinder blocks. Toyota Motor Company was
successful in producing an all-aluminum cylinder block with a MMC liner local to the
cylinder bores. The MMC liner preform consisted of alumina-silica fibers and mullite
particles [28]. Mullite is a refractory that increases the mechanical strength and thermal
shock resistance of the composite. Toyota produced inline four cylinder engine blocks
using this material combination.
Honda motor company was another automobile manufacturer to have success in
producing an all-aluminum engine block with a MMC lined cylinder bore. Honda
manufactured the cylinder blocks by placing cores of carbon fiber in an alumina (Al2O3)
matrix in the casting mold and then poured the molten aluminum around the cores [27].
The MMC cores absorbed the molten aluminum forming the reinforced cylinder bore
surface. After the casting was formed, the inner diameter of the MMC liner is bored out,
so that there is a 0.5-mm thick layer of material remaining. This small thickness of the
reinforced material provides the required wear resistance for the cylinder block
application. Honda used this material in both an inline four cylinder block and a vbanked six cylinder block".

Yes among my family we currently own 7 Toyotas/Lexus' and 2 Hondas(mowers).

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#3134609 - 09/24/13 02:04 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan


Yes among my family we currently own 7 Toyotas/Lexus' and 2 Hondas(mowers).


OK,
I'll bite. Which of the 7 cars and 2 mowers you own contain MMC liners/"blocks"?

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#3134630 - 09/24/13 02:18 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: friendly_jacek]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 548
Loc: WV
Sorry I don't know since I'm not a Toyota/Honda engine block designer just an anesthesiologist with a PhD in biochem in my spare time and a farmer most of the time. Why do you ask and do you know the answer yourself?

The article clearly stated that both Toyota/Honda have used fiber lined cylinder bores and you stated they use steel.

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#3134637 - 09/24/13 02:22 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan
Sorry I don't know since I'm not a Toyota/Honda engine block designer just an anesthesiologist with a PhD in biochem in my spare time and a farmer most of the time.


Please don't post about things you are clueless about.

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#3134725 - 09/24/13 03:30 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: friendly_jacek]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 548
Loc: WV
You wanted some definitive answers so I'll give them to you.

Toyota's 2ZZ-GE use a MMC lined cylinder bore as this SAE technical paper describes: LINK.

Here's an SAE tech paper on Japanese engineers' use of NCC(nickel ceramic composite) coatings in their motorcycles and diesel engines LINK. Which leads my non-expert eyes to believe that Japanese engineers have done their homework in regards to what cylinder bore linings would ensure longevity and provide the least amount of Fe wear in their blocks that oil analyses would verify.

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#3134771 - 09/24/13 04:08 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan

Toyota's 2ZZ-GE use a MMC lined cylinder bore as this SAE technical paper describes: LINK.


Bingo, 2ZZ-GE is the only Toyota engine I'm aware of with MMC liner. Not made anymore.

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