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#312652 - 01/18/03 05:25 PM K&N oil filter observation
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19304
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
Since I started using the K&N oil filter on my Firebird on the last oil change, I haven't really driven the car hard very often since the roads have been wet most of the time but today I had the chance to open her up and watch the oil pressure gauge.

Here is what I observed. At 70mph in overdrive with my oil fully warmed up (after driving over a half hour mostly highway) the oil pressure was just over 40psi. I put the pedal to the floor and watched the oil pressure gauge as the rpms climbed to the redline, and the oil pressure did not change. This gauge is not an idiot light like Ford oil pressure gauges, it does move according to actual pressure (it shows 18psi at idle on warmed up oil for instance).

So my theory is this, and someone correct me if I'm wrong. I figure that since the oil pressure does not rise, then that means this filter must be handling the flow of oil very well and is not causing my bypass to kick in (in this LT1 350 engine the bypass is in the block, not in the oil filter) So that is telling me that this filter is indeed flowing perfectly for my needs. IIRC, with the other filters I have used in the past the oil pressure would move up from 40 to about 50-55psi at full throttle (I used Purolator Premium Plus and AC Delco in the past)

Comments anyone?

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#312653 - 01/18/03 05:37 PM Re: K&N oil filter observation
Mike_dup1 Offline


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 3011
Loc: USA-Michigan
You think the filter is regulating the oil pressure? I would prefer the higher oil pressure the other filters appear to have allowed. One could argue the filter is impeding the flow and thus the lower oil pressure? I don't know but that crossed my mind. Have you used different type or brand of oil in the comparison?

So, if the filter is responsible for the lower oil pressure you have to decide, is better filtration worth the slight drop in oil pressure? Not saying either is bad, just thinking out loud (so to speak).


I am trying to recall what the oil pressure is in my LS1. I am sure my it is at least 60 psi or better at normal 55 mph and I am using the 2002 brochure showing the gauges to base this on. I am using synthetic 10W-30 but car is in storage for winter.

The minimum hot PSI for the 2002 LS1 is;

@ 1000 rpm - 6 psig
@ 2000 rpm - 18 psig
@ 4000 rpm - 24 psig

I am not sure you can assume the gauges are completely accurate.

[ January 19, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

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#312654 - 01/18/03 06:28 PM Re: K&N oil filter observation
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
Patman

Somehow the scenario does not make sense to me. Pre K&N your pressure exceeded 40psi at full throttle. Now with the K&N 40 psi is the max. pressure. All with a positive displacement pump and no other changes.

Is the engine pressure regulating valve up or down stream from the filter? And what are its settings? Like cracking pressure and full open pressure.

Where is the pressure guage up or down stream from the filter?

Could the difference you see be a by-pass in the K&N. If nothing else has changed then the change has to be the filter itself.

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#312655 - 01/19/03 08:28 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19304
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by Neil:
Patman

Somehow the scenario does not make sense to me. Pre K&N your pressure exceeded 40psi at full throttle. Now with the K&N 40 psi is the max. pressure. All with a positive displacement pump and no other changes.

Is the engine pressure regulating valve up or down stream from the filter? And what are its settings? Like cracking pressure and full open pressure.

Where is the pressure guage up or down stream from the filter?


I wish I knew the answers to these questions but I don't. And I'm not 100% sure on the oil pressure readings with the previous filters, but relatively sure I guess. I'm running the same oil this interval as I did in the last (Schaeffer 10w30) with the only change being the K&N oil filter this time instead of a Purolator.


At the end of this interval I will be doing an Auto-rx treatment so I will use an AC Delco filter again and see how the pressure reads.


I have always felt confident that the K&N oil filter offered much better oil flow than 95% of the filters on the market, I wish there was a way I could confirm it. I hate to continue paying $14 for one when the AC Delco is only $4 and might flow the same.

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#312656 - 01/19/03 08:30 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
Mike Thompson Offline


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 133
Loc: Carlsbad CA
That is strange, indeed. Even with no filter, the pressure has to increase, with a standard positive displacement pump, and climbing rpm. Until the relief valve in the pump (or whereever it is in a GM) opens. I think most relief valves have an upper limit somewhere around 60 psi. Maybe you have a different weight oil than before?
Mike

Oops, I see you snuck in a reply before mine, indicating the oil was the same. Well, its my story and I'm sticking with it [Big Grin] that the pressure has to increase with increasing rpm, regardless of filter.

[ January 19, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Mike Thompson ]

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#312657 - 01/18/03 11:14 PM Re: K&N oil filter observation
mebanditws6 Offline


Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Evansville, In.
Patman,

I wouldn't run that filter anymore on your LT1 as 45psi is barely enough when spinning to close to 6k like your LT1 does. Whether or not its in the by-pass mode, I would much rather run other filters where you'll the higher pressure. Considering the price of this filter, I am not impressed with it, especially when the Bosch Premium does at leastjust about as well (actually better for me as pressure dropped all around when switching to the K@N) for half the price.

Jason

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#312658 - 01/18/03 11:16 PM Re: K&N oil filter observation
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19304
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
We can't get Bosch Premium's up here unfortunately, or I'd give them a try.

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#312659 - 01/19/03 01:24 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
mebanditws6 Offline


Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Evansville, In.
Well I guess that's a sign that you should move to Indiana or the U.S. [Smile] . Seriously though I would think you could order the Bosch Premiums somewhere online.

Jason

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#312660 - 01/19/03 03:34 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
novadude Offline


Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 1352
Loc: mechanicsburg, PA
The pressure relief valve in a stock SBC oil pump opens at 40-45 psi. This is true of all OEM SBC pumps, except those used in the old 302 Z/28.

High pressure SBC pumps (as used in the 302) have 60-70 psi relief settings (this is just a function of the relief valve spring).

If you were seeing higher pressures before, it is probably more a function of higher viscosity oil, and not any thing filter related.

Just my opinion. [Smile]

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#312661 - 01/19/03 04:12 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19304
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
More than ever I'm eager to get to the end of this interval to try out the AC Delco filter and see if pressure shows the same. Perhaps it was and my memory is wrong.

My gut feeling says that these K&N filters have to be better than most filters out there in terms of flow, since they make such a big deal on their website about how well they flow. What other oil filters out there actually boast about flowing so well? Everyone else is boasting about filtering out smaller particles.

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#312662 - 01/19/03 07:27 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
UncleS2 Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 3067
Loc: Far North East Texas
Scroll down this page, Wix says their filter drops less than 2 psi yada yada. http://www.wixfilters.com/productinformation/gff_oilfilters.html
Wix seems to claim a good balance of flow & filtering(25 microns, IIRC).
Speaking of oil flow, I'm wondering if I'll see more wear in the 9,000 mile interval I'm on(a little over 7,000 miles on it now) due to the Pure One filter. [Confused] Analysis should tell!

[ January 19, 2003, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Stuart Hughes ]

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#312663 - 01/19/03 09:54 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
mebanditws6 Offline


Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Evansville, In.
novadude,

Do you know the pressure relief psi of a stock Mopar small block such as the 318 in my Grand Cherokee? At 127k miles, I still get around 60psi cruising warm and just over 60 at WOT. Cold idle is 70 and warm idle is 30psi. I use 10w40 GTX high mileage oil.

Jason

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#312664 - 01/19/03 10:40 AM Re: K&N oil filter observation
OneQuartLow Offline


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 874
Loc: Pacific NW
bandit, 318 magnum relief valve spec was ~75psi. (same for 242 and 360) That'll be lower by the time you hit 100K+ miles due to relief valve spring fatigue. Your 70psi cold pressure is likely hitting this limit.

Other specs:
Idle pressure 6psi min
3000rpm 30-80psi (30+ okay)
Filter bypass 9-15psid

These pressures are fairly generic. They at least hold true across the 318/360 magnums.

David

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#312665 - 01/19/03 07:52 PM Re: K&N oil filter observation
mebanditws6 Offline


Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Evansville, In.
Thanks OneQuartLow

This might sound kind of stupid but what are the pros and cons of having a pressure relief valve that opens earlier around 45psi like the sbc's. I like the fact the Dodge has a higher pressure spring as it seems to me the bearings and such are getting more oil that isn't circulating back to the pan with a lower pressure spring. Is this true or am I way out in left field about this?

Jason

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#312666 - 01/19/03 09:26 PM Re: K&N oil filter observation
OneQuartLow Offline


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 874
Loc: Pacific NW
Jason, the magnum spec is very forgiving once you get past minimums. I'd say you have lots of safety margin. As for different "normal" values, one engine design might need additional pressure to keep distant bearings safe. The maker may have learned that some point fails prematurely, so they bump the pump output and/or relief valve rating.

There is such a thing as too high. Within the spec higher is better, but higher also means more HP loss & wear at the oil pump. A frozen relief valve can allow pressures that collapse filter cores, burst the case, or cause problems for other weak areas of the oiling system.

You get the idea.

I'm not an engine designer so take this for what it's worth.

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