Stay away from a 2003 SAAB 9-3 as the first year of the redesign had all sorts of issues. Otherwise, they are fun little cars. And there are plenty of places to get parts online. I'd also recommend any 2004 or later SAAB 9-5. After they cleared up the sludge issue, these cars are reliable comfy cruisers that have a stock 260 hp turbo 4 cylinder engine.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
s60, 850, MB E300, Saab 9-3 & VW TDI owners help
- Thread starter Shaman
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Kestas
Staff member
The SLK 320s from around 10 years ago are surprisingly reliable cars. But it sounds like you're looking for something closer to a sedan than a two-seater sports car.
Shaman
Thread starter
The SLK looks nice. MPGs posted on fuelly don't look too bad either, but, I don't know if I want to present that aura, i.e. I don't know if it fits me right now. Driving a MB convertible without a job, or freshly hired. Again, no offense meant, but I don't know if it would be the best choice for me right off the bat.
The 230 kompressor looks interesting though. Always been an FI guy.
The 230 kompressor looks interesting though. Always been an FI guy.
I've owned or driven most of the cars on your list.
It depends on what you want, where you drive and your priorities.
Of those mentioned:
The VW will be the most fun and maneuverable in urban settings, and the thriftiest. Great commuter car. It is not my first choice for long trips. Anything over 2-3 hours, and the seats feel stiff. VWs are hit-or-miss for repair/maintenance. If you get a bad one, it can nickle and dime you to death. The new VW diesel is a better engine, IMO.
The S60 is a great all-rounder, and in higher-pressure turbo form the fastest of those mentioned. From a pedestrian model, you can move up all the way to an R, in varying degrees of sportiness. It also has terrific seats for outstanding long trip comfort. Very nice, typical European sport sedan. More refined overall than the VW or Saab, but a notch below the first-tier Germans. Not a roomy back seat. Consider it a four-door two-seater. Not as tactile to drive around a curve as a 3-series, but more comfortable overall IMO. Best value in this group. You shouldn't get bit by one unless it was abused.
The 850 is a little long in the tooth, and will need more ongoing maintenance. Volvos aren't cheap to keep if they need repairs, so find a good indy mechanic. If looking, look for a '96 or '97 and shop around hard for a straight one. It is not as nimble or as quick as the S60, but is roomier and the best cross-country ride of the group. Again, terrific seats. Volvo makes the best OEM seats in the biz, period. Most comfortable riding car of all those mentioned. A good running one is like a favorite pair of slippers - not built for intense sports, but you'll feel real good just trotting around (everyday driving). Reminds me of a tighter-feeling Peugeot 505.
Both of the above use Volvo's white block five-cylinder, which is a proven, bulletproof engine with a distinctive note. With all the turbos, the mileage goes way down. An R can average under 20 mpg.
I think there are better choices than the V40. Nuff said.
I think the Merc is overpriced for what you get at that price point. It'll impress your friends. Nice car all around, well assembled, but I'd look for a comparable-level BMW first if it must be a first-tier German. Neither are cheap cars to own.
The Saab is an interesting vehicle. It's as fun as the entry turbo Volvos, nice balanced handling, more sporty/youthful on the surface, but has it's own quirkiness at times. Somewhere between the VW and the S60 on the fun to drive/refinement scale. I'm not as friendly towards them as Volvos. I think GM did more harm than Ford did good. If a T5 or R is involved, I take them first. If I were 20 years younger, I'd give the Saab a longer look.
Hope that helps.
It depends on what you want, where you drive and your priorities.
Of those mentioned:
The VW will be the most fun and maneuverable in urban settings, and the thriftiest. Great commuter car. It is not my first choice for long trips. Anything over 2-3 hours, and the seats feel stiff. VWs are hit-or-miss for repair/maintenance. If you get a bad one, it can nickle and dime you to death. The new VW diesel is a better engine, IMO.
The S60 is a great all-rounder, and in higher-pressure turbo form the fastest of those mentioned. From a pedestrian model, you can move up all the way to an R, in varying degrees of sportiness. It also has terrific seats for outstanding long trip comfort. Very nice, typical European sport sedan. More refined overall than the VW or Saab, but a notch below the first-tier Germans. Not a roomy back seat. Consider it a four-door two-seater. Not as tactile to drive around a curve as a 3-series, but more comfortable overall IMO. Best value in this group. You shouldn't get bit by one unless it was abused.
The 850 is a little long in the tooth, and will need more ongoing maintenance. Volvos aren't cheap to keep if they need repairs, so find a good indy mechanic. If looking, look for a '96 or '97 and shop around hard for a straight one. It is not as nimble or as quick as the S60, but is roomier and the best cross-country ride of the group. Again, terrific seats. Volvo makes the best OEM seats in the biz, period. Most comfortable riding car of all those mentioned. A good running one is like a favorite pair of slippers - not built for intense sports, but you'll feel real good just trotting around (everyday driving). Reminds me of a tighter-feeling Peugeot 505.
Both of the above use Volvo's white block five-cylinder, which is a proven, bulletproof engine with a distinctive note. With all the turbos, the mileage goes way down. An R can average under 20 mpg.
I think there are better choices than the V40. Nuff said.
I think the Merc is overpriced for what you get at that price point. It'll impress your friends. Nice car all around, well assembled, but I'd look for a comparable-level BMW first if it must be a first-tier German. Neither are cheap cars to own.
The Saab is an interesting vehicle. It's as fun as the entry turbo Volvos, nice balanced handling, more sporty/youthful on the surface, but has it's own quirkiness at times. Somewhere between the VW and the S60 on the fun to drive/refinement scale. I'm not as friendly towards them as Volvos. I think GM did more harm than Ford did good. If a T5 or R is involved, I take them first. If I were 20 years younger, I'd give the Saab a longer look.
Hope that helps.
Shaman
Thread starter
Volvohead, the car would be used for commuting, and unless the wife gets something with better mileage when she comes, it would be the traveller.
the 850 stuff is from $3-6K in my area with less than 100K miles. I have strayed away from the s60 as I think it's too much car for me.
Only bratmobile I'd buy is a 35 series diesel, and I won't be able to afford one for a long time.
the 850 stuff is from $3-6K in my area with less than 100K miles. I have strayed away from the s60 as I think it's too much car for me.
Only bratmobile I'd buy is a 35 series diesel, and I won't be able to afford one for a long time.
I looked good and hard at a couple of 850's. While I preferred the sexy styling of the S60, the 850 was more comfortable to drive. It has a very square cabin which is reminiscent of the much larger sedans. Felt very spacious, had a nice dash, and held the road very nicely. It handled with the stance of a well-planted vehicle but had the overall footprint of a mid-size, ie, easy to park.
I couldn't find one in a color I liked, not too many used ones out there in my neck of the woods. I was intrigued by the wagons as well.... but none were available when I was looking.
I love volvohead's writeup. Spot-on. And the seats... no kidding. I'm dead serious here... La-z-boy couldn't touch the smooth support and comfort of that s60.... and it was 8 years old when I had it.
I couldn't find one in a color I liked, not too many used ones out there in my neck of the woods. I was intrigued by the wagons as well.... but none were available when I was looking.
I love volvohead's writeup. Spot-on. And the seats... no kidding. I'm dead serious here... La-z-boy couldn't touch the smooth support and comfort of that s60.... and it was 8 years old when I had it.
I missed the $10k budget comment.
With that limit, you're probably best off with the VW. You'll have the most cash left for initial repairs and a maintenance cushion. Parts are cheapest for the group. VWs need less special tools than better Germans, but more than the Swedes in my experience. Try to get the service history; some VWs are repair pigs and should be avoided. Take a cushion for long trips.
If you're handy, a select 850 can be a reasonable second choice. But even if you're spinning the wrenches, parts are not bargains. Look at places such as FCP Groton to save $. The 850 has an active owner community, and all the common issues and fixes with them are well known. These cars wear very well. Our 855 runs about the same at almost 250k as it did 100k ago. Don't worry about mileage so much; look at maintenance history (particularly fluid changes) and present condition.
A clean S60 or Saab is going to cost more right off, and may take you over budget once fixed up right. More computers to deal with. You'll need dealer or a good indy's help more often.
Try to find cloth interior (or 'leatherette' vinyl for the VW) examples; they will usually look better at this point unless the prior owner was very diligent with leather care. Abused Volvo leather can be downright ugly.
The Merc (and most other first-tier Germans) is just out of your budget, IMO, unless you are doing all the work yourself, and have all the $80 special tools to do every little task. Parts alone could break you with a dog. Dream about it, but don't make a nightmare for yourself by buying one you can't keep right.
With that limit, you're probably best off with the VW. You'll have the most cash left for initial repairs and a maintenance cushion. Parts are cheapest for the group. VWs need less special tools than better Germans, but more than the Swedes in my experience. Try to get the service history; some VWs are repair pigs and should be avoided. Take a cushion for long trips.
If you're handy, a select 850 can be a reasonable second choice. But even if you're spinning the wrenches, parts are not bargains. Look at places such as FCP Groton to save $. The 850 has an active owner community, and all the common issues and fixes with them are well known. These cars wear very well. Our 855 runs about the same at almost 250k as it did 100k ago. Don't worry about mileage so much; look at maintenance history (particularly fluid changes) and present condition.
A clean S60 or Saab is going to cost more right off, and may take you over budget once fixed up right. More computers to deal with. You'll need dealer or a good indy's help more often.
Try to find cloth interior (or 'leatherette' vinyl for the VW) examples; they will usually look better at this point unless the prior owner was very diligent with leather care. Abused Volvo leather can be downright ugly.
The Merc (and most other first-tier Germans) is just out of your budget, IMO, unless you are doing all the work yourself, and have all the $80 special tools to do every little task. Parts alone could break you with a dog. Dream about it, but don't make a nightmare for yourself by buying one you can't keep right.
One other thing I forgot to mention for the turbos: avoid any "tuned" examples unless the owner was extremely thoughtful/careful about it and performed enhanced maintenance religiously. Many tuners don't correlate the additional maintenance required from the added stress. These should be in peak OEM condition when tuning/modding. You can, and I have seen, prematurely worn out and blown up white blocks from haphazard tuning/mods improperly maintained, or applied to cars that already needed repair. Even little details missed, like upgrading and then maintaining spark plugs, or using the wrong fuel, can cause serious problems on tuned ones. You can also get bit at inspection time if the mod isn't DOT compliant (seen that too).
Generally speaking, once you take a turbo out of its OEM parameters, you reduce the power train's service life. Try to find straight OEM examples if you can.
Generally speaking, once you take a turbo out of its OEM parameters, you reduce the power train's service life. Try to find straight OEM examples if you can.
Not that I don't doubt VW's are fairly cheap to work on as there are more of them out there, but I never really had anything expensive computer-related in the repair of my SAABs. I replaced a few suspension components but was easily able to source cheap parts. $3-400 for a spare Direct Ignition Cassette would be the most expensive thing I ever dealt with and that shouldn't be an issue on an 03- 9-3 anyway. I'm not trying to push OP toward a SAAB but I wouldn't call them money pits.
It's all relative. None of these cars are exactly cheap to fix, compared to an entry-level Ford or GM. But a Saab or Volvo usually costs more to keep on the road than a VW. And the newer ones require more special tools and proprietary computer diagnostic when something does go wrong. None of these cars are exactly new; the 850 is going to be at least 15 years old. At least it can usually be computer-diagnosed with straight OBD-II most of the time.
The OP seems younger, so I think he should not dismiss a Saab. In my book, Saabs tend to be more popular with the youthful kids and singles; Volvos with the more mature moms and dads. Of course, there are plenty of crossovers both ways. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
For whatever reason, Volvos tend to have a little more "continental" feel to them than a Saab, and are a bit closer to the European mainstream. I prefer that at this point. I guess you might say that a Saab is truly more Scandinavian. Hence the "quirkiness" comment. Again, no disrespect intended.
The OP seems younger, so I think he should not dismiss a Saab. In my book, Saabs tend to be more popular with the youthful kids and singles; Volvos with the more mature moms and dads. Of course, there are plenty of crossovers both ways. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
For whatever reason, Volvos tend to have a little more "continental" feel to them than a Saab, and are a bit closer to the European mainstream. I prefer that at this point. I guess you might say that a Saab is truly more Scandinavian. Hence the "quirkiness" comment. Again, no disrespect intended.
Right, no doubt on the computer stuff. I'm just noting I think with 2 saabs over a 7 year span I had to take my car to the dealership for something that required the special SAAB-specific computer stuff once (to mate a new ABS solenoid). SAABs are very tunable, cheap and fun. That makes them popular w/ younger drivers. But the 9-5 wagon does (or did) have a popular following as a dad-mobile. Honestly every 9-3 sedan I saw when they were new to the roads in the mid 2000's was driven by what appeared to be a 20-30's female. It's a shame GM and Ford didn't do more to market SAAB and Volvo to the younger demographic. BMW's are pricing themselves out of that market.
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Of those mentioned:
The VW will be the most fun and maneuverable in urban settings, and the thriftiest. Great commuter car. It is not my first choice for long trips. Anything over 2-3 hours, and the seats feel stiff. VWs are hit-or-miss for repair/maintenance. If you get a bad one, it can nickle and dime you to death. The new VW diesel is a better engine, IMO.
I made many cross-country trips between California and the Midwest with my 2003 Golf TDI, usually driving till I was tired and then reclining the seat for a nap. The seats were okay.
Later I picked up a set of Recaros and they were even better (of course). I drive for a living and spend about 6-7 hours a day in the driver's seat. For me it is the perfect car, though it has been modified for performance purposes.
Of those mentioned:
The VW will be the most fun and maneuverable in urban settings, and the thriftiest. Great commuter car. It is not my first choice for long trips. Anything over 2-3 hours, and the seats feel stiff. VWs are hit-or-miss for repair/maintenance. If you get a bad one, it can nickle and dime you to death. The new VW diesel is a better engine, IMO.
I made many cross-country trips between California and the Midwest with my 2003 Golf TDI, usually driving till I was tired and then reclining the seat for a nap. The seats were okay.
Later I picked up a set of Recaros and they were even better (of course). I drive for a living and spend about 6-7 hours a day in the driver's seat. For me it is the perfect car, though it has been modified for performance purposes.
Shaman
Thread starter
Ok, I know this is old, but I have pretty much narrowed it down to 4, realistically 3 choices, one of which is coming in late to the party.
LS1, about $8K for a manual, $6K for an auto, and then whatever to convert it over to manual.
TDI - I just can't get away from them. Looking at the MPG possibilities, right now the extra MPG isn't offset with the 15 cent more per gallon cost of fuel. But, compared to the other two choices, parts will be more.
L67 Grand Prix or Regal GS - Already had one, am comfortable taking it down to lower intake manifold, and know how they drive. But it's big, and only comes in auto. Autos don't like power, and a rebuild for it is about $2K. $3-7K
Cobalt SS/TC - I wish, but they are about 11-12K buy-in. I really like everything about them aside from the carbon buildup due to the DI fuel system.
LS1, about $8K for a manual, $6K for an auto, and then whatever to convert it over to manual.
TDI - I just can't get away from them. Looking at the MPG possibilities, right now the extra MPG isn't offset with the 15 cent more per gallon cost of fuel. But, compared to the other two choices, parts will be more.
L67 Grand Prix or Regal GS - Already had one, am comfortable taking it down to lower intake manifold, and know how they drive. But it's big, and only comes in auto. Autos don't like power, and a rebuild for it is about $2K. $3-7K
Cobalt SS/TC - I wish, but they are about 11-12K buy-in. I really like everything about them aside from the carbon buildup due to the DI fuel system.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 48
- Views
- 11K