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#2886161 - 01/27/13 07:28 PM Another Look at Ethanol
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14385
Loc: Midwest
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#2886164 - 01/27/13 07:32 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
RiceCake Offline


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1044
Loc: Coldtown, Canada
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".

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#2886167 - 01/27/13 07:39 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
jimbrewer Offline


Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 821
Loc: New Mexico, USA
Personally, I think its immoral to burn food in the gas tank of a car. There are some areas where its a legal requirement, because of the oxygenation feature.

I found the puregas.org site on the web and found out there's a no ethanol pump in my town. I'm not ashamed to say I try and finagle a a reason to be in that neighborhood so as to gas up there if I possibly can. Car has more zip and gets maybe 1 mpg better mileage with the no ethanol. Its also premium, but I don't know if that makes a difference.

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#2886174 - 01/27/13 07:43 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: jimbrewer]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 735
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Its also premium, but I don't know if that makes a difference.

What are you driving?

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#2886177 - 01/27/13 07:45 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: RiceCake]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 735
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".


The achilles heel for hydrogen is the amount of energy needed to convert water to hydrogen. When the input power exceeds the output, it is always a losing proposition.

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#2886201 - 01/27/13 08:15 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: jimbrewer]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13329
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Personally, I think its immoral to burn food in the gas tank of a car. There are some areas where its a legal requirement, because of the oxygenation feature.

I found the puregas.org site on the web and found out there's a no ethanol pump in my town. I'm not ashamed to say I try and finagle a a reason to be in that neighborhood so as to gas up there if I possibly can. Car has more zip and gets maybe 1 mpg better mileage with the no ethanol. Its also premium, but I don't know if that makes a difference.


There is a whole list of chemicals that can be used as oxygenators.
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#2886203 - 01/27/13 08:16 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Danno]
Nyquist Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 911
Loc: Iowa
I agree that corn-based ethanol is probably an idea that does more harm that good, but I think it is temporary now. In the future I see companies developing a more efficient means of producing ethanol using various types of algaes.
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#2886212 - 01/27/13 08:24 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Panzerman Offline


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 2480
Loc: Daytona, Florida
Its a perfect example of un-informed enviromentalist causing exactly the opposite of their intentions. Your car uses more gas, you use more water to make ethanol and it does more harm then good. Plus, the cost. The only place you can find non-ethanol in Florida is at Marinas and you pay out the Ying yang, but its still better than the agrevation of dealing with it in smalll engines. Now I wish they would clear cut all the dead trees down here, instead of being a "Save Old Florida" kick. Old trees use more oxygen then they make, again un-informed and hard headed enviro-nuts.

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#2886266 - 01/27/13 09:07 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Danno]
RiceCake Offline


Registered: 09/22/12
Posts: 1044
Loc: Coldtown, Canada
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".


The achilles heel for hydrogen is the amount of energy needed to convert water to hydrogen. When the input power exceeds the output, it is always a losing proposition.


Not really. No matter what you're gonna lose some in the conversion. The benefit of hydrogen however is you can get energy from completely renewable sources, like solar or hydroelectric, you can burn it in a piston engine or a fuel cell, and the exhaust is water vapour.

The main issue right now, besides storing hydrogen, is of course using fossil fuels or nuclear to generate it...which obviously combined with inefficiencies means its a pretty stupid idea.

But it has a future, somewhere. That or batteries if we can make them from something other then tons of nickle and other polluting industries, make them charge faster, and make them last more then a few brief years...

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#2886775 - 01/28/13 11:40 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Nyquist]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10787
Loc: The Motor City
Originally Posted By: Nyquist
I agree that corn-based ethanol is probably an idea that does more harm that good, but I think it is temporary now. In the future I see companies developing a more efficient means of producing ethanol using various types of algaes.

They've been making vehicle fuel this way for at leaast four decades. This is more than temporary. It's a clear indication of the stranglehold special interests have on the public. The move away from corn could have and should have happened a long time ago.

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#2886894 - 01/28/13 01:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Danno]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
What I would like to see is hydrogen worked on, versus a fuel that essentially has no ability to develop anywhere beyond "grow more".


The achilles heel for hydrogen is the amount of energy needed to convert water to hydrogen. When the input power exceeds the output, it is always a losing proposition.


Then you better not study the production of ethanol for automobiles!!!!
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#2886895 - 01/28/13 01:20 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Panzerman]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Its a perfect example of un-informed enviromentalist causing exactly the opposite of their intentions. Your car uses more gas, you use more water to make ethanol and it does more harm then good. Plus, the cost. The only place you can find non-ethanol in Florida is at Marinas and you pay out the Ying yang, but its still better than the agrevation of dealing with it in smalll engines. Now I wish they would clear cut all the dead trees down here, instead of being a "Save Old Florida" kick. Old trees use more oxygen then they make, again un-informed and hard headed enviro-nuts.



Please do not confuse the corn lobbyists with the environmentalists. The greenies simply helped, it was the corn lobby that did the heavy lifting here...
_________________________
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#2887676 - 01/29/13 03:09 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
The corn lobby is an indescribable evil, and have co-opted the greenies in supporting the unsupportable grain ethanol business.

They argue that feedlotting is efficient (same amount of land would raise many more cattle without a middleman, and have a far better health outcome for beef eaters...and vut out a lot of enviro arguments against meat).

They argue that the grains aren't suitable for human consumption anyway (but the land could be used for food grains or other stuff if it weren't for ethanol).

They take your tax money, and keep other renewables out of the scene.

If the grain/ethanol lobby were honest and serious, they'd run their farm equipment and transport on it...and we'd watch them disappear up their own fundamental orifice.

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#2888070 - 01/29/13 01:17 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10426
Loc: Las Vegas NV
From the article:
Quote:
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, agri-firm ADM has contributed $10.46 million to politicians and spent $8.94 million on lobbying since 1990.


$45 billion in subsidies since 1980.
http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/201...l-subsidies.php


That's a VERY good return on investment. You can't get that kind of return on the open market.
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#2888130 - 01/29/13 02:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Outstanding ROI. Lobbying Congress should be outlawed or at least heavily regulated.

Congressman are too cheap!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#2888194 - 01/29/13 03:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
beechcraftted Offline


Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 84
Loc: Milwaukee, WI.
I am neither a tree hugger nor a corn farmer and I do dislike the special interest politics referenced above. But (there is always a but) the USA is currently using 3.7 million gallons of gasoline PER DAY. This has resulted in a huge transfer of wealth to some places that don't like us too much (middle east, Venezuela, etc.). Given current day politics (pipeline construction, EPA, middle east political instability, etc) some alternative is going to have to be found. Why not "blender" pumps where a consumer could purchase E-0, E-10, E-30, E-85. Brazil did this years back and now imports little or no oil. Ethanol may not be the end all, be all solution, but it works for me. Hydrogen could be OK, but requires Kevlar/fiberglass weave tanks that are DOT approved. Very expensive and you need 4 for an 8 hour run time. I know this because my company investigated retrofitting a small fleet of 40,000 lb. medium duty trucks. Turned out the conversion was not cost effective. Why couldn't we take a hard look at something (ethanol) that is already sold at some stations and can be tranported by conventional means (which hydrogen cannot).
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#2888508 - 01/29/13 06:47 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10787
Loc: The Motor City
beechcraftted, we do not object to having ethanol in our fuel as much as we object to where it comes from. They should not be making it out of corn. It should be made of something that we don't eat and something doesn't require us to set aside prime arable land that could be used to make food. Corn (and sugarcane) is not the only possible source for ethanol.

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#2888891 - 01/30/13 04:48 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^Thanks for that.

Whether you go left or right ethanol the way we do it is purely a political solution that benefits farmers. Consumers get to pay for it, and in so many different ways that I wonder if many understand what it's doing to food prices and such.

Despite the spin, the facts are very different than what is reported on the news. And we haven't even mentioned the interesting and highly toxic byproducts of ethanol when combusted in an engine, most of which end in "zene"!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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Just like we go to Publix

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#2940172 - 03/15/13 10:40 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
there IS a reason why we have had gasoline for so many years!!! but i repeat my self.

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#2940509 - 03/16/13 11:27 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
getnpsi Offline


Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 693
Loc: Fontana, California
Production of everything we consume burns more fuel than for propulsion. What is the "footprint" of a car that is already here? If all Americans across the board kept their cars running an extra two years, extended OCI 1,500 miles and simply drove it 10% less there would be a huge shift. The danger in this is would affect the US economy from lost taxes, car sales, retailers. Everyone made fun of the pump up your tires and save millions in a speech but the most common sense conservation tactics on the ground level is easier to give a go than Washington, or other countries' interests.
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#3047752 - 06/27/13 09:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Trash article. Subsidies were eliminated in 2011. And dig this one.... at the request of the ethanol producers! And there is NO loss to food supply using corn for ethanol production. This was a hack reporting job that exhibits extreme bias. No factual data whatsoever. I have seen the biofuel production situation since the early 70's first hand. There is no waste of any kind. There is no disruption to the food supply in any measure. In fact, there are several high end food products that are made from the residual distillers grain after the starches are removed for producing ethanol. Folks must seem to think that all of that is just dumped. It is a very in demand product that commands a good price because of it's quality.

Call your local Farm Bureau and they can fill you in on all the details. Or even you local ag extension office. They can set the record straight also. So many folks rely on the writings and rantings of those that wouldn't know corn from sorghum in a field if their life depended on it.
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#3047959 - 06/28/13 05:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^The Farm Bureau. No agenda there at all.

Simply not true, you been drinkin' that kool aid?
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3048836 - 06/28/13 09:02 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Trash article. Subsidies were eliminated in 2011. And dig this one.... at the request of the ethanol producers! And there is NO loss to food supply using corn for ethanol production. This was a hack reporting job that exhibits extreme bias. No factual data whatsoever. I have seen the biofuel production situation since the early 70's first hand. There is no waste of any kind. There is no disruption to the food supply in any measure. In fact, there are several high end food products that are made from the residual distillers grain after the starches are removed for producing ethanol. Folks must seem to think that all of that is just dumped. It is a very in demand product that commands a good price because of it's quality.

Call your local Farm Bureau and they can fill you in on all the details. Or even you local ag extension office. They can set the record straight also. So many folks rely on the writings and rantings of those that wouldn't know corn from sorghum in a field if their life depended on it.


Corn is about 70% starch. Almost all is removed. You are confusing 1 lb of corn and 1 lb of distillers grain. Hint, it take more than 1 lb of corn to make 1 lb of distillers grains.

Here you go:
Quote:
Distillers grain is an important co-product of drymill ethanol production. Drymill ethanol production process uses only the starch portion of the corn, which is about 70% of the kernel. All the remaining nutrients - protein, fat, minerals, and vitamins - are concentrated into distillers grain, a valuable feed for livestock. A bushel of corn weighs 56 pounds and will produce at least 2.8 gallons of ethanol and 17 pounds of distillers grain.

Ethanol.org

You going to stick with your "no loss to food supply" nonsense?


Edited by hatt (06/28/13 09:08 PM)
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#3056897 - 07/06/13 11:53 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Yes I am! And I am not confusing anything.

Roughly 80% of corn production is used for livestock feed. Whether it is also used for ethanol or not. The small portion of total corn production that is intended for human consumption is not affected in any way. Only 40% of total corn production in the US is used for ethanol production. And NONE of that 40% comes out of the corn production intended for human consumption.

True, it does take more than a lb of corn to make a lb of DDG. But that is not the whole story here. Most of the starches used in ethanol production, if fed to livestock, would end up on the ground or in the sludge ponds. Cattle, in particular, do not absorb the starches in corn, but instead pass them on thru. Since they are wasted in livestock production, why not use the starches in ethanol production and then give the resulting DDG to livestock, which they can actually use. So, while it does take more than a pound of corn to make a pound of DDG, it also takes far less DDG than corn to produce the same result on livestock.

This is so clear to one who actually has experience feeding livestock. It goes missing on those that have no clue what is involved in livestock production. This is the problem the agriculture community has in stating it's case. The vast majority of folks, and politicians, haven't a clue what the whole crop production, livestock production, and ethanol relationship is all about. It is a similar problem with biodiesel. Soybeans are crushed into meal and oil. The meal is used for livestock, the oil is used for a variety of purposes including biodiesel production. Otherwise, the oil would be nothing but a waste byproduct. Livestock don't need the oil and neither do people. People may use it to deep fat fry some foods, but they do not need it to live. So, the same situation exists.... there is no loss to the food supply to produce biodiesel.

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#3056974 - 07/07/13 05:32 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Yes I am! And I am not confusing anything.

Roughly 80% of corn production is used for livestock feed. Whether it is also used for ethanol or not. The small portion of total corn production that is intended for human consumption is not affected in any way. Only 40% of total corn production in the US is used for ethanol production. And NONE of that 40% comes out of the corn production intended for human consumption.

True, it does take more than a lb of corn to make a lb of DDG. But that is not the whole story here. Most of the starches used in ethanol production, if fed to livestock, would end up on the ground or in the sludge ponds. Cattle, in particular, do not absorb the starches in corn, but instead pass them on thru. Since they are wasted in livestock production, why not use the starches in ethanol production and then give the resulting DDG to livestock, which they can actually use. So, while it does take more than a pound of corn to make a pound of DDG, it also takes far less DDG than corn to produce the same result on livestock.

This is so clear to one who actually has experience feeding livestock. It goes missing on those that have no clue what is involved in livestock production. This is the problem the agriculture community has in stating it's case. The vast majority of folks, and politicians, haven't a clue what the whole crop production, livestock production, and ethanol relationship is all about. It is a similar problem with biodiesel. Soybeans are crushed into meal and oil. The meal is used for livestock, the oil is used for a variety of purposes including biodiesel production. Otherwise, the oil would be nothing but a waste byproduct. Livestock don't need the oil and neither do people. People may use it to deep fat fry some foods, but they do not need it to live. So, the same situation exists.... there is no loss to the food supply to produce biodiesel.


I'll post the same link in this thread. For someone with so much experience feeding cattle it looks like you would have come upon such info yourself.

Link
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#3297567 - 02/28/14 04:58 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The corn lobby is an indescribable evil,


Sounds like you have your priorities straight. crazy

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#3297598 - 02/28/14 05:41 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
If your priorities include healthy food, including meat and milk with proper fatty acid profiles, a proper food pyramid that's not a slab of grains on the base, HFCS in everything, soil use/preservation...and yes ethanol, I include them all in my priorities.

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#3297633 - 02/28/14 06:19 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If your priorities include healthy food, including meat and milk with proper fatty acid profiles, a proper food pyramid that's not a slab of grains on the base, HFCS in everything, soil use/preservation...and yes ethanol, I include them all in my priorities.
That's where US agriculture is so screwed up. The government incentivises the stuff that we don't need much of and does nothing for the stuff that we do. Fresh fruit and veggie framers get nothing.
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#3297943 - 03/01/14 05:18 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If your priorities include healthy food, including meat and milk with proper fatty acid profiles, a proper food pyramid that's not a slab of grains on the base, HFCS in everything, soil use/preservation...and yes ethanol, I include them all in my priorities.
That's where US agriculture is so screwed up. The government incentivises the stuff that we don't need much of and does nothing for the stuff that we do. Fresh fruit and veggie framers get nothing.


Nice link. I would like to see some more info, as I am a big believer in all this highly processed and altered foodstuff having an effect on the final product. As Shannow pointed out, the fatty acid profiles of meat are altered by diet. I note that cows do not normally eat corn in the wild as a food as well, even the incredibly tasty and desirable byproducts of ethanol production.

TT said it best. Let's drill, frack, boil, bake, recycle, and cook ALL forms of energy and enjoy the huge economic boom that would employ folks at decent wages and make more taxes flow into the system. Demand will sort them out just fine, we don't need lobbied subsidies or mandates as Central Planning is already holding up a HUGE pipeline that could employ thousands.

Or we could just imagine more divisive labels for each other, that seems to be popular...
_________________________
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#3299072 - 03/02/14 10:38 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: hatt

I'll post the same link in this thread. For someone with so much experience feeding cattle it looks like you would have come upon such info yourself.

Link


I read that a few years ago.

Only problem is the assumption that grain is the PRIMARY source of starch of energy. And the article only addresses cattle. As much or more of the products derived from DDG go to swine and poultry production as to cattle. But, go to a cattle feedlot, there is much more alfalfa, fermented silage, and other sources of carbs for livestock. And energy is not the primary concern of a feed lot operator. Stationary cattle in a feed lot do not need near the energy of grass fed cattle. The market demand is for a much leaner product than in years past. Protein has ALWAYS been a supplement to a sound cattle diet. And DDG products provide that. I currently have 45,000 lb of 60% protein Biolys brand product made from DDG at the Cargil Ethanol Plant in Blair, NE in my semi going to a feed producer north of Grand Rapids, MI. That producer takes several loads of this a week. I haul the stuff through out the midwest. The ethanol plant ships this stuff outside the country also.

And the article does address that the goal is to increase the digestion efficiency. DDG does that very nicely. I have never stated a 1 for 1 input for output of solid product from an ethanol production plant. Only a 1 for 1 or better total product production output for total corn input.

And now along comes a engine design company out of U.K., with corporate structure also in Detroit, Ricardo, that has specialized itself with ethanol internal combustion engines since the 1920's. They have put a prototype 3.2L Extreme Boost Direct Injection (EBDI) engine in a Chevy 3500HD that has the power, including low end torque, of the 6.6 Duramax Diesel, and much better fuel economy, for GM to do final testing on. And it uses E85!!! You remember... that super bad ethanol blend stuff with no fuel economy and a poor substitute for gas!



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#3309693 - 03/12/14 05:53 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
On page 158 of Obama's 2015 budget proposal is up 200 million to be used to support infrastructure for refueling stations for alternative fuels. This administration is definitely in the corner of corn ethanol. They talk climate change then they support this ecological mess.

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#3309914 - 03/12/14 09:07 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California

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#3310023 - 03/12/14 10:38 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
steve EVERY ONE has an axe to grind.

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#3311055 - 03/13/14 08:40 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TrevorS]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
TrevorS that's a great read. Just about every claim the corn lobby makes isn't true. The consumer is the one taken advantage of. A fuel most consumers don't want and higher prices on food. The real culprit is corn lobby money fueling political campaigns. How many more programs is this administration supporting that do nothing but hurt the economy?

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#3311076 - 03/13/14 08:58 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
TrevorS that's a great read. Just about every claim the corn lobby makes isn't true. The consumer is the one taken advantage of. A fuel most consumers don't want and higher prices on food. The real culprit is corn lobby money fueling political campaigns. How many more programs is this administration supporting that do nothing but hurt the economy?


Today's corn price is 4.55, not that high. I just don't see the conspiracy.

Why allow Exxon and Mobil to merge. Did you have any problem with that? Gas prices have gone up ever since.

Why does one give you heartburn but not the other. Are you connected to oil?

Full disclosure.

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#3311627 - 03/14/14 10:32 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Everyone should take a moment to read the IG's report on the EPA recently released.

It may wake some of the cheerleaders up to the realities of huge Gov and central planning...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3311629 - 03/14/14 10:33 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: morris]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: morris
steve EVERY ONE has an axe to grind.


Hey Morris!

You betcha they do, and mine is nice and sharp, as I love to take down large trees with my own labor!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3311960 - 03/14/14 03:56 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Everyone should take a moment to read the IG's report on the EPA recently released.


I keep looking for this report. When I search it brings me to some seriously wacky right wing websites.

So let me get this straight. You trust government when it agrees with your view, but distrust when it doesn't?


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#3312033 - 03/14/14 05:09 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Turtlevette take the time to read TrevorS's link to Justfactsdaily.com. The reaction by one of the head corn lobbyist is hilarious. Non bias site being accused of links to big oil. Than they give the lobbyist a chance to respond and he disappears. How much oil does this program replace? Nobody seems to want to touch that question. The fact that fueleconomy.gov has almost every flex vehicle costing at least 25% more to use E85 verses gasoline has to tell you the consumer is paying for this scam.

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#3312072 - 03/14/14 06:07 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
the consumer is paying for this scam.


What kind of scam is it going to be when there is no gasoline for our vehicles? And there is not a competing product?

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#3312100 - 03/14/14 06:34 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Turlevette I do think we need to do what we can about energy and environmental concerns. The fact is this program does very little towards replacing oil needs. I like that California's approach "if it isn't clean we shouldn't use it". I would go one step further and not allow product into this country that doesn't meet the same standards we hold our manufactures to. I hope you took the time to read that article. Really spells out the reasons why this program is wrong. Usage is down 6% and we driving more efficient cars, that's a far better way to go.

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#3312135 - 03/14/14 07:19 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2480
Loc: Upper Midwest
I still am confused on the whole reason we need to replace oil. Does the US have an oil shortage?

Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Turlevette I do think we need to do what we can about energy and environmental concerns. The fact is this program does very little towards replacing oil needs. I like that California's approach "if it isn't clean we shouldn't use it". I would go one step further and not allow product into this country that doesn't meet the same standards we hold our manufactures to. I hope you took the time to read that article. Really spells out the reasons why this program is wrong. Usage is down 6% and we driving more efficient cars, that's a far better way to go.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 188K
1996 Honda Accord, 201K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 302K
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#3312138 - 03/14/14 07:22 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: kschachn]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I still am confused on the whole reason we need to replace oil. Does the US have an oil shortage?


http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr6enr/pdf/BILLS-110hr6enr.pdf

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#3312140 - 03/14/14 07:23 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2480
Loc: Upper Midwest
So there's a shortage of oil?

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I still am confused on the whole reason we need to replace oil. Does the US have an oil shortage?


http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr6enr/pdf/BILLS-110hr6enr.pdf
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 188K
1996 Honda Accord, 201K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 302K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 223K

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#3312144 - 03/14/14 07:31 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Kschachn that's the theme of this program "wean us from foreign oil". 50% of the tilled land in the corn belt goes into this program with little or no return, and yes the oil situation has changed. That's one reason this program needs an overhaul. The increasing mandates aren't manageable without increasing the amount required in gasoline.

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#3312930 - 03/15/14 05:02 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
SteveSRT8 that IG report is a good read. It just tells you a little more about this administration. We need them to come up with a good decision on the ethanol mandate and their busy spending tax payer dollars. Obama was going to clean this type of thing up and it looks like its only getting worse under his watch.

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#3313325 - 03/16/14 06:29 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
The increasing mandates aren't manageable without increasing the amount required in gasoline.


Pretty simple. Some understand the need to 'change', some don't.

And TV, it's not my problem you can't find the report. But just trust me on this one, it doesn't do much to make them look like the saints on a pedestal you painted them as here!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3313413 - 03/16/14 08:51 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Steve main stream media supports this administration. They played a large part in Obama being reelected. Fox media has a report on the IG investigation, so I would look for it to show up on their channel and is part of the reason their viewership is up 30% during this administration. I still don't understand with the administration's drive on climate change how do they support this ecological mess? I don't agree with mandates. When I talk about the increase its based on what has to be done if the quota is to be met.

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#3313979 - 03/16/14 04:48 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
dlundblad Online   happy


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1459
Loc: Indiana
"A good first question about a mandate is "how good can a product be if you have to force people to buy it?"

Reminds me of something else that was initiated earlier this year..
_________________________
I've been bitten by the BITOG bug.

2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0
QS Defy 10w 30 w/ Fram TG8A


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#3319490 - 03/21/14 11:49 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
You mean buy it, like having to buy EGR, catalytic converters, seat belts, daytime running lights, tire pressure monitoring systems, air bags, etc? Having a EPA mandate on fuel emissions by using ethanol seems like a very slight issue compared to all the other stuff we are forced to buy. My 2013 Silverado, right out of the gate I disabled the daytime running lights, the Automated Fuel Management [censored] on the engine, and a few other things. I had to pay for them, but didn't want them, and in some cases, had to pay even more just to be able to disable them. The AFM might have been pushed by the EPA, but is not mandated to be operational like, say, the catalytic converters and other emission stuff, and the daytime running lights are not mandated by any regulation. The other "safety" things might be justifiable, but I sure don't need beeper alarms going off. So, yet another thing I had to disable...the seat belt chimes reminding me like a little school boy to fasten my seatbelt. Even though all I may be doing is driving the pickup from the barn to the grain bin, or checking a fence line, in which case, I am not wasting time fastening the darn thing. It does make me wonder how much of the purchase price went for this junk.

And having to use 10% ethanol really seems like a joke compared to all of the other stuff we are "forced" to buy. Especially when there has been vehicles using 10% blends for over 4 decades with no issues. Sure, there is the occasional problem that seems to crop up, but most times it is found to be a result of something that was not directly anything related to the ethanol itself.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3319618 - 03/22/14 09:32 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Steve main stream media supports this administration. They played a large part in Obama being reelected. Fox media has a report on the IG investigation, so I would look for it to show up on their channel and is part of the reason their viewership is up 30% during this administration. I still don't understand with the administration's drive on climate change how do they support this ecological mess? I don't agree with mandates. When I talk about the increase its based on what has to be done if the quota is to be met.


Here's some more perspective on that wonderful EPA:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/...ind-costly-epa/
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3319975 - 03/22/14 04:58 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Steve it's disappointing the process that allows these guys appointment. A lot of times we end up with people that are yes men to the administration and not truly representing the main stream consumer. TiredTrucker I don't think the mandates a joke. Its a prime example of government at its worst. If you want ethanol you should have it by all means unless keeping it around cost to much. For ethanol at this point its has way more negatives to the consumer than benefits. The consumer would be way ahead if this mandate was lifted and farmers were subsidized to make sure the consumer was supplied with food at a fair price. We need to go after our energy supplies here and use it more efficiently.

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#3320271 - 03/22/14 09:14 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
. The consumer would be way ahead if this mandate was lifted and farmers were subsidized to make sure the consumer was supplied with food at a fair price. We need to go after our energy supplies here and use it more efficiently.


So now you know what's best for the consumer. More government is OK when it suits your purpose?


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#3321072 - 03/23/14 04:42 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Turtlevette your right this government shouldn't be allowed to run anything of this nature. The consumer would be better served to allow the free market to pick winners and losers.

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#3321075 - 03/23/14 04:45 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7097
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Turtlevette your right this government shouldn't be allowed to run anything of this nature. The consumer would be better served to allow the free market to pick winners and losers.


Absolutely.
I've said it many times but I'll say it again. Fuel to me is cost per mile I don't care if its ethanol,gasoline or coffee,as long as my cost per mile is as little as possible,and still maintaining performance of course.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3321344 - 03/23/14 08:47 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Steve it's disappointing the process that allows these guys appointment. A lot of times we end up with people that are yes men to the administration and not truly representing the main stream consumer. TiredTrucker I don't think the mandates a joke. Its a prime example of government at its worst. If you want ethanol you should have it by all means unless keeping it around cost to much. For ethanol at this point its has way more negatives to the consumer than benefits. The consumer would be way ahead if this mandate was lifted and farmers were subsidized to make sure the consumer was supplied with food at a fair price. We need to go after our energy supplies here and use it more efficiently.


Well, the dollar has lost 28% of it's value during the last 10 years, so what would you consider a fair price for food? The same price as it was 10 years ago? It essentially is!! When you factor the cost of food inflation, and compare it to the dollar loss of value, they exhibit almost a 1 for 1 correlation, which in buying terms, makes food essentially the same value. The value didn't change, only the value of the dollar. Seems the outrage over food pricing is being directed to the wrong people. And it isn't even all that bad when it comes to corn used for ethanol production. The cost has remained essentially flat for the last two decades, except for a few spikes and dips. Now Beef is substantially higher, but that is not the fault of the corn ethanol producers. Again, corn is priced today at almost the same price it was 20 years ago. The availability of beef on the hoof in relation to the demand is out of sync, so that the price for beef is thru the roof. And the beef producers still complain they can't make it. Right. As for the argument of increased irrigation needed to produce the corn, there is a grand total of 15% irrigated crop land in the U.S. Of that the vast majority by several factors is for traditional produce crops targeted at human consumption. Very little corn crop land is irrigated in relation to the total irrigation used in the U.S. and barely a blip on the radar compared to corn production in general.

Would you please outline the negatives vs the positives regarding ethanol? I know of a few. It has no government subsidies being paid to the industry, for a few years now. It does have some plusses and minuses in the emission arena, but many studies (both in and outside of the U.S.) have shown net positives in favor of ethanol, even including the entire crop life cycle cost equation. The cost is substantially lower than gasoline, even without subsidies, so much so that even with the lower mpg out of the current crop of engines on the market now, many experience a lower actual cost per mile using ethanol. E85 is not mandated in any way, shape, or form, and offers at a true market cost a lower cost per mile than regular gas while offering better octane than premium and lower combustion deposits. With the engines being developed and tested today, the game is rapidly going to swing in ethanol's favor. Even more than using diesel when it comes to power, fuel economy, and emissions. And the negatives that seem to get floated about turning more land into corn crop land is bogus on it's face. Corn bushel production per acre is at record highs. An Illinois farm broke all records this last year by producing an average 450 bushel per acre! And no irrigation was used! And the government has put a cap on ethanol production from corn at 14 billion gallons per year. We produced 13.7 billion gallons last year. So we are essentially capped in the so called food to fuel argument. Inconvenient truths.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3321621 - 03/24/14 04:49 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Clevy]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Turtlevette your right this government shouldn't be allowed to run anything of this nature. The consumer would be better served to allow the free market to pick winners and losers.


Absolutely.
I've said it many times but I'll say it again. Fuel to me is cost per mile I don't care if its ethanol,gasoline or coffee,as long as my cost per mile is as little as possible,and still maintaining performance of course.


Great quote. Of course that is probably true for most folks here, just not obvious to all...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3321670 - 03/24/14 07:14 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
dlundblad Online   happy


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1459
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
You mean buy it, like having to buy EGR, catalytic converters, seat belts, daytime running lights, tire pressure monitoring systems, air bags, etc? Having a EPA mandate on fuel emissions by using ethanol seems like a very slight issue compared to all the other stuff we are forced to buy. My 2013 Silverado, right out of the gate I disabled the daytime running lights, the Automated Fuel Management [censored] on the engine, and a few other things. I had to pay for them, but didn't want them, and in some cases, had to pay even more just to be able to disable them. The AFM might have been pushed by the EPA, but is not mandated to be operational like, say, the catalytic converters and other emission stuff, and the daytime running lights are not mandated by any regulation. The other "safety" things might be justifiable, but I sure don't need beeper alarms going off. So, yet another thing I had to disable...the seat belt chimes reminding me like a little school boy to fasten my seatbelt. Even though all I may be doing is driving the pickup from the barn to the grain bin, or checking a fence line, in which case, I am not wasting time fastening the darn thing. It does make me wonder how much of the purchase price went for this junk.

And having to use 10% ethanol really seems like a joke compared to all of the other stuff we are "forced" to buy. Especially when there has been vehicles using 10% blends for over 4 decades with no issues. Sure, there is the occasional problem that seems to crop up, but most times it is found to be a result of something that was not directly anything related to the ethanol itself.


If you didn't like paying for all the bells and whistles that your truck came with, then why did you buy it? Were you forced to? If i was to buy a farm truck, id personally go with a earlier used model..

As a consumer, do we have that option with ethanol? A few stations and boat marinas within a 60+ mile radius of me offer ethanol free fuel. Most of it is high octane though. Sure looks to me like we are forced to buy something that isn't necessarily good. You seem to already know that ethanol use, like E85 for example, decreases fuel mileage to a point where it is actually cheaper to E10 so I wont go into the details. As stated, at the end of the day, people simply want the cheapest cost per mile. 10% alcohol content sure is nice in the winter time though..

Ethanol just seems like we have an excess of corn and are running out of things to do with it. While we are on the subject, lets talk about the tariff on sugar and how the amount that is imported into the US is limited. For one it helps the US sugar farmers, but it also creates another demand for corn in the form of corn syrup. Do you know how much that stuff is used as opposed to real sugar?? Once again.. another excess in corn that we are trying to find ways to use.

I am by no means anti farmer. I live in Indiana after all.. But i cant help but wonder how things would be different if the govt stayed out of telling people what to grow.
_________________________
I've been bitten by the BITOG bug.

2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0
QS Defy 10w 30 w/ Fram TG8A


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#3322309 - 03/24/14 06:11 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Tiredtrucker I know your pretty good at massaging numbers, I work mainly on numbers posted in articles on the internet. You also multiple times have stated you don't believe in a mandate. Your attitude tells me that's not really true. The corn lobby should do their work in front of the consumer. Do away with the mandate and allow the consumer to have their choice. Since this program began food prices have risen by over $2000 per year for a family of four. Flex vehicles on average cost around 20% more to use E85 verses gasoline. That easily explains why less than 4% of flex owners chose to use it. It also tells us ethanol cost more to use overall. Others have stated there is money given to blenders to mix ethanol. Corn prices might be low now, but when it was high recently it forced the livestock industry to reduce its size to less than 1952 levels and the consumer is paying for it now. The amount of idle land that has gone back into production tells the story and the environmental impact is large. In this administrations 2015 budget they have 200 million subsidizing the alternative fuel industry. Is that to make ethanol appear cheaper?

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#3322650 - 03/25/14 12:46 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
The corn lobby should do their work in front of the consumer. Do away with the mandate and allow the consumer to have their choice.

The amount of idle land that has gone back into production tells the story and the environmental impact is large.


So should the oil lobby. Wanna talk environmental impact? Another spill in Galveston is going to cause a gas price spike not to mention destroying the environment for many years.

The Gulf of Mexico is getting so trashed. It'll be 100s of years before things are clean again.


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#3322657 - 03/25/14 01:04 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7097
Loc: Saskatoon canada
In a perfect world we'd have solar powered flying vehicles or we'd be able to bend space and time to travel however we aren't there yet so we gotta do the best with what we've got,which means oil.
I still don't understand how ethanol pollutes less when more is required to be burned when compared to gasoline.
Until we have engines that run at 99.99 efficiency we have to to the best with what we've got.
No oil isn't perfect,in fact it sucks but its all we've got as far as cheap and attainable.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3322661 - 03/25/14 01:19 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Clevy]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Clevy
we gotta do the best with what we've got,which means oil.


The big oil guys have to slow down and do it right. If it means paying more, so be it. We can't continue to dump [censored] where we live.

I'm glad BP got rid of that snot nosed punk CEO. There's a culture of cutting corners.

I interviewed with Schlumberger many years ago. They wanted their engineers to work 30-40 hours straight. I actually went out on a rig 100 miles out and worked a job for the interview. I couldn't stay awake that long. I think some of these guys pop pills to get the job done.

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#3322714 - 03/25/14 06:42 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Tiredtrucker I know your pretty good at massaging numbers, I work mainly on numbers posted in articles on the internet. You also multiple times have stated you don't believe in a mandate. Your attitude tells me that's not really true. The corn lobby should do their work in front of the consumer. Do away with the mandate and allow the consumer to have their choice. Since this program began food prices have risen by over $2000 per year for a family of four. Flex vehicles on average cost around 20% more to use E85 verses gasoline. That easily explains why less than 4% of flex owners chose to use it. It also tells us ethanol cost more to use overall. Others have stated there is money given to blenders to mix ethanol. Corn prices might be low now, but when it was high recently it forced the livestock industry to reduce its size to less than 1952 levels and the consumer is paying for it now. The amount of idle land that has gone back into production tells the story and the environmental impact is large. In this administrations 2015 budget they have 200 million subsidizing the alternative fuel industry. Is that to make ethanol appear cheaper?


Many assume it is the "corn lobby", whatever that means, that is behind mandates. Every time I have seen mandates on ethanol, MTBE, or whatever the oxygenate du jour is, it always seems to be EPA or local inspired. LA or even CARB for that matter is hardly swayed by any lobby in what they do, let alone a bunch of hay seeds from Iowa trying to convince them to do something. This is why fuel vary so much in price across the country. You have a myriad of local and state mandates on fuel makeup, usually inspired by EPA air quality regulations, and that is the primary motivation to these mandates. Whenever I read anything put out by the renewable fuels people in my area, it seems to be centered around regulatory issues on them and not on everyone else, and promoting some blenders tax credit or something. I have never read in 30 years any "corn lobby" internal publication that goes around stating that they are promoting a mandate on consumers. It may benefit them to have a mandate, obviously, but that has not been their prime focus. Just trying to make a profit without drowning in regulatory nonsense seems to be their prime concern.

There is NO SUBSIDIES to the ethanol industry and hasn't been for at least 2 years!!!! The "corn lobby" was behind the removal of ethanol subsidies. Mainly because of the abuse by external sources of ethanol coming into the country. A subsidy is a direct payout to an entity. Now, there may be some tax credits, but that is not a subsidy. If you think tax credits are bad, then give up your mortgage interest deduction, you child and dependent care tax credit, etc, etc, etc. Many want to throw a fit over a business getting a tax break, but God forbid they give up their own. And there is not a single business in America that doesn't benefit from some form of tax credit or tax avoidance. It is the way the code is set up. I was able to avoid the 12% Federal Excise Tax on new equipment (saving roughly $15,000) by taking advantage of both EPA and IRS regulations. I purchased a 2013 Freightliner Semi truck, without a engine, and dropped in a rebuilt engine and rebuilt transmission. By doing that, I avoided the EPA smog junk on the engine, by using two major rebuilt components, I avoided the Federal Excise Tax on new equipment. OMG! How terrible! A business got to a tax break! Yeah, you bet! And I drove away smiling like a mule eating burrs.

And many blame food prices going up on the corn ethanol gig. Do any of you actually take the time see how the U.S. corn crop is divided up or how the value of the dollar has tanked in the last decade? Of the entire U.S. Number 2 Field Corn crop in the U.S. each year, roughly 20% goes to any kind of human consumption. Of the 80% left, only 40% of that goes toward ethanol production and most of the that corn is also developed into high protein livestock feed supplements and other products AFTER the ethanol cycle. The value of the dollar has dropped roughly 28% in the last 10 years. That actually equates on a 1 for 1 basis with average food price rises. Meats? There is a substantially lower herd level in both beef and pork in the U.S., so the market price has gone up substantially. Cannot be because of corn ethanol, because the corn price today is almost the same as it was 20 years ago. And true, the meat industry cut back herds due to input costs. Hey, what business doesn't? And now the market is such that they are now increasing the herds again. It is called a business cycle. It is called minimizing liabilities and increasing profits. No one forced the livestock folks to decrease the herds. And demand is what drives up the price. You have a larger world wide demand for meats, especially coming from China. Did you forget that aspect to your analysis?

And any mandates for ethanol in fuels is not going to change one thing on corn ethanol. That source of ethanol is capped at 14 billion gallons per year. Last year, 13.7 billion gallons were produced here. That essentially means that they are at the peak they can make corn ethanol. Mandates by government may increase, but the ethanol will have to be made from other sources like biomass, cellulosic, or NG. But, hey, lets all blame the "corn lobby". They make a convenient fall guy. After all, no one in local, state, or federal government is to blame, right?
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3323378 - 03/25/14 04:48 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Tiredtrucker this program was to wean us from foreign oil. It was to be a clean renewable energy good for the environment. You have had over five years to convince the consumer what the benefits are. Its time to cut the reign and let the consumer respond to your product. I know you believe corn ethanol has the qualities where it doesn't need to live on a mandate. How much oil does this program actually replace? When we as a country are on the verge of exporting oil this program needs to be reworked at best. This administration as concerned as they are about climate change how could they allow this destruction to the environment to happen?

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#3328437 - 03/30/14 06:29 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 6932
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We can't continue to dump [censored] where we live.


What do you purpose to do with the Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico then? Or in Santa Barbara were 20-25 tons of oil leaks from the sea floor everyday and has for thousands of years?.
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#3328478 - 03/30/14 07:13 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: dave1251]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dave1251


What do you purpose to do with the Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico then? Or in Santa Barbara were 20-25 tons of oil leaks from the sea floor everyday and has for thousands of years?.
You can't do anything with the militant enviro folks. Around here phosphate mines were the worst thing ever. Now every old mine is a beautiful park with great fishing. The Earth does not care about humans.
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#3328619 - 03/30/14 09:52 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
It's hard to convince a grumpy old man of anything or change their minds. Their minds are already made up and will be to death.

Dumb [censored] reasoning:

It's OK to pollute the Earth, because the Earth is already polluting itself.
It's Ok not to care about the Earth, because the Earth does not care about humans.

Dumb

What enviro militant do you know that owns the vehicles below?
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#3328790 - 03/31/14 06:08 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Al Gore is looking for help!

Once again he resorts to name calling. God Gawd are we in grade school?
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#3329181 - 03/31/14 01:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
You see yourself in that statement?

It's something I never want to happen to me. If I get to be 90 I want to be open minded and think young.

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#3329374 - 03/31/14 04:43 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You see yourself in that statement?

It's something I never want to happen to me. If I get to be 90 I want to be open minded and think young.


There is definitely one thing you are NOT and that is open minded. That was funny. Go back and read your reactions to anyone who dares question your progressive mind.

Save your breath with the inflammatory comments, I've been here a while. It only hurts your credibility, which is getting lower by the minute with every bout of name calling.

Or keep it going. It adds entertainment value for some...
_________________________
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#3329474 - 03/31/14 06:21 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Today Emily Cassidy, EWG biofuels research analyst for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said: " Risk to food security is only going to get worse, with water shortages and temperature changes. The UN Panels findings should alert U.S. policymakers that mandating corn ethanol threatens food security, intensifies completion for land and water and fails to reduce greenhouse gas emissions". Do you think this administration can look past the political promises they have made and do away with this mandate? They repeatedly have made statements that they are committed to slowing climate change.

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#3331136 - 04/02/14 08:05 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
dlundblad Online   happy


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1459
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Today Emily Cassidy, EWG biofuels research analyst for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said: " Risk to food security is only going to get worse, with water shortages and temperature changes. The UN Panels findings should alert U.S. policymakers that mandating corn ethanol threatens food security, intensifies completion for land and water and fails to reduce greenhouse gas emissions". Do you think this administration can look past the political promises they have made and do away with this mandate? They repeatedly have made statements that they are committed to slowing climate change.


Any research done on climate change is a waste or time and money. Remember that ship that got stuck in all the ice? I'm glad they were able to find what they were looking for. Lol.

This is just a suggestion that isn't backed by any evidence, but it makes you wonder: If they are so worried about greenhouse gasses, wouldn't they want to produce less corn? Diesel machinery used to plant, pick and transport puts off many more carbon footprints than all the gas guzzlers on the road IMO.

From what I can see locally, they can cut back on corn growth without having a negative affect on the food supply. The new ethanol plant here has made corn growth increase dramatically.. and farmers seem to be bummed when fuel prices are down. Go figure.
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#3331506 - 04/02/14 03:15 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: dave1251]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3083
Loc: PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
We can't continue to dump [censored] where we live.


What do you purpose to do with the Oil Seeps in the Gulf of Mexico then? Or in Santa Barbara were 20-25 tons of oil leaks from the sea floor everyday and has for thousands of years?.


I don't know, but I sure wish someone would fix it! My dog absolutely hates the tar that gets washed up when it gets stuck to his paws--very unpleasant!!

Seriously though, I never really understood the line of reasoning that states that just because something occurs naturally, it means it's OK to produce it exponentially. It just doesn't make much sense to me...

As far as corn-based ethanol, this isn't a partisan issue, it's a money issue. Pretty much everyone who's not making money from it has agreed that it's an idea whose time has past. We'll see whether anything gets done about it anytime soon.

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#3331662 - 04/02/14 06:51 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
There is still a $.45 per gallon of ethanol used federal subsidy when the fuel is blended. Around me it is done at the fuel depots as the fuel is added to the individual tankers.

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#3331976 - 04/03/14 05:46 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Chuck, all the baloney about climate change from the UN is just another massive redistribution of wealth project. All we 'rich' nations have to do is send billions of dollars to the corrupt UN and they'll see to it!
_________________________
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J. William Fulbright
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#3332017 - 04/03/14 07:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.
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#3332192 - 04/03/14 11:09 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
JOD Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 3083
Loc: PNW/WA
Originally Posted By: hatt
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.


Of course, absolutely none of the above is actually true, but carry on...

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#3332358 - 04/03/14 01:59 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Chuck, all the baloney about climate change from the UN is just another massive redistribution of wealth project. All we 'rich' nations have to do is send billions of dollars to the corrupt UN and they'll see to it!


We give money to third world countries anyway.


Originally Posted By: hatt
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.


This post makes you sound unintelligent. It's a shame because we know that isn't true.

I think a lot of this stuff comes from Rush Limbaugh or other nutty conservative websites. People regurgitate the stuff.



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#3332523 - 04/03/14 04:44 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
I have mixed feelings about the UN and climate change. My point is they feel this program negatively affects food security and the environment. I also think it does very little to replace foreign oil. My question is for what reason are we doing this program? Big oil takes the blame from the corn lobby for most negative press. This clearly has nothing to do with big oil.

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#3332679 - 04/03/14 08:02 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7097
Loc: Saskatoon canada
As far as climate change and the truth I'm not sure I believe all this warming is 100% human caused.
We are but ants in a huge ant hill. For us to truly believe we've got it all figured out is laughable at best.
The fossil record shows that the earth has cycled hot and cold for millions of years. So it's entirely possible the warming trend is just part of that cycle.
Sure we may have sped it up a bit however to think that it's a completely man made condition doesn't fly in my eyes.
Just one mans opinion.

Turt,open minded. Truly absurd. If someone doesn't agree they get called dumb and sworn at.
Yep. I'm open minded and learning but only facts that fit my agenda. Anything else is to be ignored and anyone who feels different is dumb.
Yep. That's open minded alright.
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#3332941 - 04/04/14 02:30 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Kiwi_ME Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 652
Loc: New Zealand
We may be ants on an anthill but the fact is we burn fossil fuels at a stupendous rate, equalling about 1/3 of what naturally transitions between the atmosphere and ocean. Not insignificant by any means.

I'm from a different upbringing - my late dad was a well-respected astrophysicist, wrote a ground-breaking paper on cosmic rays in the 1950s, was a contributor to the NASA Voyager missions of the '70s and happen to have presented a few lectures on climate change during retirement. He explained the basics to me and having been exposed to the techniques of science during my seven years at university chasing an engineering degree, I'm entirely confident our scientists are telling it exactly like it is.

In an understated style, scientists describe their findings in words suited for the critical eye of other scientists. It's not neatly marketed and packaged for the general public like a new underarm deodorant. When they say they are 95% sure, you know darn well they are 100% sure but can only reveal the actual statistical confidence level.

As for the Earth's climate changing throughout it's history - sure it did, but that doesn't mean it was good for life forms. Only over many tens of thousands of years has it stabilized sufficiently for life forms to evolve and succeed to what we know today.

It's the greenhouse effect of CO2 and numerous other "greenhouse" gases that are wreaking havoc with the heat balance of the atmosphere. That in turn warms and increases the equilibrium levels of CO2 in the ocean, allowing more CO2 in the atmosphere and continuing the cycle. Stuff in the ground that slowly absorbed CO2 over a hundred-million years has been mined and turned back into CO2 gas in a relative instant. And it's not just the fault of fossil fuels either, it's methane from cows and other rotting vegetation and lack of CO2 absorption due to deforestation. Unfortunately, all mostly due to stuff humans have done to survive and progress.

You might suggest this has happened before due to natural events such as hugh comets hitting the Earth - sure it has, and 10 thousand years later the climate settled down again. Are you willing to wait it out?

For myself, the amazing thing is that the predictions are appearing to becoming true in my lifetime, something I didn't expect. The polar vortex and floods in the UK are all part of the same weather disturbance due to arctic warming, to say nothing of dozens of other unusual weather events. But, it's not statistically significant to scientists until we have seen 30 years of similar data. Are you good with waiting for the final answer, even though anyone with a common sense of self-preservation would run for cover?

You can say "climate change is good for us." It might be ... where I live we will get Mediterranean-like grape-growing weather with occasional droughts. Sounds great! Are you happy with the predictions pertaining to the part of the world where you and your offspring live? One thing for sure, we will all get far more variable weather than we have ever seen before.

After relying on science to bring us the computer to our desks to easily express our views, I have to wonder if people now don't want to believe the science because they think their "toys" will be taken away. Yeah, I don't want to give up my car either but really the true power behind denial comes entirely from oil money, not from any actual "truth." If you are part of that, good luck to you but I'll bet most of you are not.

We all know that like the frog in the slowly-warming water that doesn't realized he's being boiled, nothing will even get done about this. Politicians are only interested in their own careers and yet we blindly vote them in for the short term, then rely on them to guide us for the long term. All we can really do is adapt and that means more conflict and war as we battle over the one resource that is the most difficult to transport, that is - water.

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#3332951 - 04/04/14 03:12 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
Too true, since we started this experiment (one in which we are actually living inside the test-tube), we humans, have through our actions materially altered the atmospheric composition of gasses, to a measurable degree.

That fact is inescapable, and not applicable to any other action of any other species or event in history.

When it comes to consequence I'm a partial fence sitter, however believe that we should have a prudent use of finite resources, and if it stays off something big, then all the better.

When the tractors and farm equipment are all run on E100, then I'll believe that it's part of a "solution".

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#3332957 - 04/04/14 03:28 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Kiwi_ME]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
We may be ants on an anthill but the fact is we burn fossil fuels at a stupendous rate, equalling about 1/3 of what naturally transitions between the atmosphere and ocean. Not insignificant by any means.

I'm from a different upbringing - my late dad was a well-respected astrophysicist, wrote a ground-breaking paper on cosmic rays in the 1950s, was a contributor to the NASA Voyager missions of the '70s and happen to have presented a few lectures on climate change during retirement. He explained the basics to me and having been exposed to the techniques of science during my seven years at university chasing an engineering degree, I'm entirely confident our scientists are telling it exactly like it is.

In an understated style, scientists describe their findings in words suited for the critical eye of other scientists. It's not neatly marketed and packaged for the general public like a new underarm deodorant. When they say they are 95% sure, you know darn well they are 100% sure but can only reveal the actual statistical confidence level.

As for the Earth's climate changing throughout it's history - sure it did, but that doesn't mean it was good for life forms. Only over many tens of thousands of years has it stabilized sufficiently for life forms to evolve and succeed to what we know today.

It's the greenhouse effect of CO2 and numerous other "greenhouse" gases that are wreaking havoc with the heat balance of the atmosphere. That in turn warms and increases the equilibrium levels of CO2 in the ocean, allowing more CO2 in the atmosphere and continuing the cycle. Stuff in the ground that slowly absorbed CO2 over a hundred-million years has been mined and turned back into CO2 gas in a relative instant. And it's not just the fault of fossil fuels either, it's methane from cows and other rotting vegetation and lack of CO2 absorption due to deforestation. Unfortunately, all mostly due to stuff humans have done to survive and progress.

You might suggest this has happened before due to natural events such as hugh comets hitting the Earth - sure it has, and 10 thousand years later the climate settled down again. Are you willing to wait it out?

For myself, the amazing thing is that the predictions are appearing to becoming true in my lifetime, something I didn't expect. The polar vortex and floods in the UK are all part of the same weather disturbance due to arctic warming, to say nothing of dozens of other unusual weather events. But, it's not statistically significant to scientists until we have seen 30 years of similar data. Are you good with waiting for the final answer, even though anyone with a common sense of self-preservation would run for cover?

You can say "climate change is good for us." It might be ... where I live we will get Mediterranean-like grape-growing weather with occasional droughts. Sounds great! Are you happy with the predictions pertaining to the part of the world where you and your offspring live? One thing for sure, we will all get far more variable weather than we have ever seen before.

After relying on science to bring us the computer to our desks to easily express our views, I have to wonder if people now don't want to believe the science because they think their "toys" will be taken away. Yeah, I don't want to give up my car either but really the true power behind denial comes entirely from oil money, not from any actual "truth." If you are part of that, good luck to you but I'll bet most of you are not.

We all know that like the frog in the slowly-warming water that doesn't realized he's being boiled, nothing will even get done about this. Politicians are only interested in their own careers and yet we blindly vote them in for the short term, then rely on them to guide us for the long term. All we can really do is adapt and that means more conflict and war as we battle over the one resource that is the most difficult to transport, that is - water.


Best post I've ever read on BITOG.

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#3333097 - 04/04/14 08:32 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: JOD]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: hatt
Not to mention the research that indicate that if there were to actually be global warming, it would be good for us. Too bad we appear to be going into a cooling period. Something about a huge fireball somewhere doing something. Don't know how that'd have any effect on the Earth.


Of course, absolutely none of the above is actually true, but carry on...

Which part? The Sun having an effect on Earth's climate? Warm periods good for humans?

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6017/578.abstract
http://www.stanford.edu/~moore/Boon_To_Man.html


Edited by hatt (04/04/14 08:37 AM)
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#3333099 - 04/04/14 08:33 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Warm periods good for humans? Maybe when we were nomadic tribes. Turn the Midwest into deserts and see how good for humans it is.

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#3333111 - 04/04/14 08:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Warm periods good for humans? Maybe when we were nomadic tribes. Turn the Midwest into deserts and see how good for humans it is.

Why would the Midwest turn to desert? Is the warming going to cause a new mountain range to form cutting off moisture to the region? Temperature has no bearing on whether a place is a desert or not. Warmer temp will absolutely open up additional area that were previously to cold to agriculture.
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#3333112 - 04/04/14 08:47 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
No it shifts the jet stream north. The corn belt in the Midwest depends on summer thunderstorms that ride on the south edge of the jet stream.

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#3333998 - 04/05/14 10:20 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Steve part of the reason I injected the climate change issue is the democrats seem to be committed to protecting the environment and this program does nothing but hurt the environment. I think this angle has the best chance to get this mandate thrown out. The other being corn lobbyist like to blame all their criticism on big oil and the UN has nothing to do with big oil.

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#3334003 - 04/05/14 10:27 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Ethanol has devolved into a massive job and farm subsidy without directly coming from the Agriculture Department.

Each plant also uses over a million gallons a day of water. They were going to put one up in my county but this nixed that idea. Too many farmers and others depend on a stable water table.

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#3334004 - 04/05/14 10:29 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Warm periods good for humans? Maybe when we were nomadic tribes. Turn the Midwest into deserts and see how good for humans it is.

Why would the Midwest turn to desert? Is the warming going to cause a new mountain range to form cutting off moisture to the region? Temperature has no bearing on whether a place is a desert or not. Warmer temp will absolutely open up additional area that were previously to cold to agriculture.


Here is where the most food is grown in the world. Well not actually food anymore. frown



Fluorescence Reveals the Incredible Productivity of America’s Corn Belt

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#3340802 - 04/12/14 04:26 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Actually, if you check in with many geologists, we are in a relative cool phase of planetary history. There have been many occurrences of far warmer temps globally than anything we are even close to. And a news flash, and you didn't hear it here first.... ever since the last ice age we have been warming. I know that may shock some folks.

Problem is, no one is defining what is "normal". And the reason is, because no one really knows. Much of this hoopla over greenhouse gasses and climate change stuff is a recent phenomenon that is not based on a starting point of what is normal. No one even takes time to consider that the climate we are in is in the abnormal category and the planet if slowly changing to a more normal cycle. It is purely stupid to base an idea on a blip in time instead of the whole picture. Many here would concede that a single oil sample does not show a trend line. Well, a couple of hundred years of humans even giving a rip about the climate is about the same thing.

Given that equatorial fauna has been shown to have grown at all locations on the planet at one time, including the polar regions, I think we have a long way to go. Even most geologists agree that there have been several times in earth history when the so-called greenhouse gasses were far higher than they are now, and that they really didn't have that great of an effect in the climate.
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#3340808 - 04/12/14 04:38 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Ethanol has devolved into a massive job and farm subsidy without directly coming from the Agriculture Department.

Each plant also uses over a million gallons a day of water. They were going to put one up in my county but this nixed that idea. Too many farmers and others depend on a stable water table.


Ok.... I'll bite. I live within 3 hrs driving of over 42 ethanol plants. I have yet to see any of them use 1 million gallons of water a day. Well, maybe the monster Conagra biofuel facility in Blair, NE. But they get their water from the Missouri river, and that wiped out a lot of folks a couple of years ago with massive flooding. And why is it then, many farmers still install drainage tile into their cropland to keep the water table at a more moderate level if water is such a short commodity on crop land? This is done in the vast majority of the corn belt, with special emphasis on MN, IA, IL, IN, OH, and MI which are the heaviest producers of corn though there is not one major ag state that doesn't have drainage tile installed. Been doing that for over 100 years and it hasn't slowed one bit. I have passed several farms recently that have newly installed tile drainage systems. I grew up doing this line of work with my dad. My neighbor just bought out a tile installer operation and he is hurting for enough hours in the day to get all the work done for farmers in my area. No... it is not used for irrigation purposes, it is for removing excess water and keeping the water table from fluctuating. Of all the farmland in the U.S., only about 15% is ever irrigated, and most of that is done by produce farms in the SW part of the country. Very little cropland used for corn production is irrigated, in relation to the total grain production of the U.S. You really need to have a chat with your state university ag extension service office. They can fill you in.

There are no subsidies for ethanol. I will concede there was in the past. But not for the last few years. And farmers have not been paid subsidies for growing corn this century. Subsidies are based on a floor price of $1.79 a bushel. Corn has been above $4 a bushel all this century. And there is a government limit on the amount of ethanol that can be produced from corn... 14 billion gallons per year. Last year, we produced 13.7 billion gallons, so we are at the cap now. Just can't produce any more from corn. That is why we import ethanol from outside the country. The only way we can go now is cellulosic ethanol and ethanol from biomass, neither which is cost effective right now.
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#3340875 - 04/12/14 06:01 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
That is the testimony that the proposed plant gave to the county board about the million gallons a day. It was the main reason they were denied.How do you know what they use unless you can get readings from their meters?

There is a federal EPA mandate to use ethanol in gasoline. it that is not a subsidy I don't know what you call it. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/renewablefuels/

As far as field drainage that is to speed up the drainage of water so they can get planted in the spring.

Corn subsidies .... http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=corn

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#3340959 - 04/12/14 07:44 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
This is like calling a tax credit a subsidy. A subsidy is a direct payment by the government to the entity in question. Government also mandates air bags, impact bumpers, seat belts, etc, etc, etc. So should all those others be thrown under the bus also? After all, isn't this also a "jobs program"? I don't want to pay for a lot of this stuff either.

Now, I deal directly with most of these ethanol plants. I haul feed products from them to feed mills across the midwest. I see almost daily their operation. I don't get my information from magazines and newspaper articles written by people who barely know how to raise a garden, let alone understand the agriculture sector. The limit on corn ethanol production is from the government themselves. And the water use, there are many of these ethanol plants that do not have access to the amounts of water per day that you read. Some do, like a stated. The massive (and I do mean massive) biofuels complex at Blair, NE might actually need the water level you state. But that water is freely available from the Missouri river, which Conagra's demands would not even put a dent in that water flow. I suggest you take a look at the ethanol plants near Galva, IA, Sheldon, IA, New Cambria, MO, Worthington, MN, Claremont, MN, just to name a few. They are not any large source of water, and the local farming interests are not even affected. I have seen these facilities first hand and they do not use the level of water that you claim.

Now, to be fair, there are different methods for making ethanol from corn. The most adapted methods used by the majority of average production ethanol plants use approximately 2.5 gallons of water for each gallon of ethanol produced. The typical ethanol plant will produce ballpark 100 million gallons of ethanol per year. That equates to just under 7000 gallons of water per day on a 365 cycle. The Claremont facility I mentioned publishes this information freely. These facilities also eliminate liquid discharge and recycle a large portion of the water they need for production.

The reason for field drainage is only partially due to getting into fields sooner in the spring. But that is mostly handled by intake pipe systems installed along the tile drainage lines. Drain tile is primarily for keeping the water table at a preferred level so that root systems will develop deeper for stronger, healthier plants, which in turn enhances yield potential. High water tables limit root structure growth, then when the drier parts of the year occur, the plants do not have the deep root systems to survive the drier parts of the growing season. Also, the deeper root systems are less likely to be detrimentally affected by root rot and various pests. Like I stated, I grew up doing this stuff. My dad was a consultant to Iowa State University regarding the methods for doing this. He was also a past President of the Iowa Land Improvement Contractors Association. I know the topic very intimately. Plus we were farmers. We know what crops need to grow properly. And drain tile systems are CRITICAL for effective crop production.

On the subsidy issue, not one farm operation in the area I live has received one dime of corn subsidies this century, as non of them have qualified because the corn price has not dropped below the basement price of $1.79 a bushel. I can't speak to contracts that have their own game going on. And crop insurance programs are across the board on all production, regardless the crop in question. It is analogous to the flood insurance program. it pays if the the crop is destroyed by natural weather. That is not a direct subsidy to the farmer in any way. And in your chart, crop insurance programs garnered the largest portion of money. Actual crop price protection garnered barely blip.
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#3341052 - 04/12/14 09:46 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Ok I see you are part of the ethanol industry so obviously you are partial to it's use.

I don't want it. I live in the middle of the corn belt. I sure don't want E15 because the gasoline use is dropping and along with it the ethanol usage so the only way to comply with the Renewable Fuels Act is to up the concentration of ethanol in gasoline. I do not want half my sales tax money being refunded to the station operators who sell E10 in Illinois.

The million gallons a day was what they said they would use. Why would they say that if it were not true? Ask your local ethanol production plants how much water they use. coffee


Edited by SHOZ (04/12/14 09:48 PM)

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#3341222 - 04/13/14 07:05 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SHOZ]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
What's the reason for the mandate? Replace oil usage right. EROI on corn ethanol is said to be about 1.07. It takes roughly .93 units of fossil fuel energy to get one unit corn ethanol energy. So when we use one unit corn ethanol energy we have actually used 1.93 units of energy. Is this what we call good energy conservation? Five million acres of setaside land put back into crop production is taking a toll on the environment. It's really hard to find one positive for this program. Sure it keeps farmers busy and employs more people, but the money it burdens on the consumer actually hurts the economy more. What business wouldn't do better if the government mandated the purchase of their product. I have yet to see where the true corn ethanol lobbyist are satisfied with the 14 million cap. Most places I have seen they want this cap removed. 50% of the corn crop in the corn belt is going into this program with little or no reduction in our oil usage. How much corn can be allowed to go into this program? Almost every major study talks about the negative effects on food security. The major reason for E15 is to eventually place even a larger burden on the consumer.

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#3341291 - 04/13/14 09:19 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Tax credits are bought and sold. They are real, and they are just like money. They have the exact same effect as a subsidy or a mandate.

The program should stand on its own. It saves no oil at all, and it costs us all in environmental damages and waste. Not to mention pollution of air and water. The closer you look the less you'll like it, unless you're drinking it...
_________________________
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#3341319 - 04/13/14 09:51 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
By reducing your fuel mileage 2%-5% it also increase you taxes paid. In Illinois there is a fuel tax and a sales tax on gasoline as well as the federal tax.

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#3342886 - 04/14/14 08:22 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
What's the reason for the mandate? Replace oil usage right. EROI on corn ethanol is said to be about 1.07. It takes roughly .93 units of fossil fuel energy to get one unit corn ethanol energy.


If that were true why is ethanol less than the cost of gasoline/diesel?

Many people are math challenged and that really frustrates me. There's really no excuse in this day and age.

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#3342921 - 04/14/14 08:53 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Turtlvette ethanol is selling at $2.34 and gasoline $3.00, at 2/3 the energy it needs to sell for $2.00 to break even. Very seldom in the past 6 years has it been break even or less. A good example is it cost 20% more to use E85 in a flex vehicle. This program is heavily supported by the government thus hiding a lot of true cost.

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#3343140 - 04/15/14 04:26 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
LOL

chuck1955, you obviously haven't taken into consideration that a gallon of ethanol in a fuel tank can deliver more energy than there is in the fuel in the tank...that's ethanol science from turtle to explain why more expensive is actually less expensive.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

If you had any engineering or technical background at all, you would understand. That goes for clevy too. I don't know how to take this stuff down to 3rd grade level.

You don't understand that for a gallon of gasoline some percentage is converted to work, and the rest is waste in the form of incomplete combustion, waste heat, friction, etc? You can't as easily lean gas out to 20/1 or more to get a more efficient burn and resulting more complete conversion of gasoline to energy. A fuel like ethanol might be able to burn much leaner thus converting more of the product to energy. I envision a lean burn mode kicking in when the cruise control is on or something similar.

example

1 gal gas = x btu
1 gal ethanol = .7x btu

if gas conversion is 60% we have .6 btu work
if ethanol conversion is 90$ we have .9*.7 btu = .63 btu

do you understand where I'm headed with this?


See, simple math coupled with made up science, and pigs can fly at a lower cost.

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#3343224 - 04/15/14 07:28 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
What's the reason for the mandate? Replace oil usage right. EROI on corn ethanol is said to be about 1.07. It takes roughly .93 units of fossil fuel energy to get one unit corn ethanol energy.


If that were true why is ethanol less than the cost of gasoline/diesel?

Many people are math challenged and that really frustrates me. There's really no excuse in this day and age.


yes, indeed they are...
_________________________
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#3343667 - 04/15/14 04:33 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10426
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Quote:
It has no government subsidies being paid to the industry, for a few years now.

How about the market distortions that decades of subsidies and import tariffs have caused?

Everything is OK now that the industry was developed on the backs of the general public?

Are mandates that the public buy the product in conjunction with another product they really want not a subsidy?

Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else? How does that distort the food market?
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#3345225 - 04/17/14 03:22 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Tempest]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else?


Who is going to decide what they grow. Or if they can use their land to grow.

You?

When government supports your philosophy you like government.
When government doesn't support your philosophy you hate government.

And the world goes round and round.

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#3345346 - 04/17/14 08:25 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Tempest]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Tempest


Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else?
We could likely use the land to grow food that's actually good for us instead of pushing the same stuff they use to fatten cows and pigs on us to lose weight.
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#3345357 - 04/17/14 08:37 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Farmers will grow what makes them the most money. The market for corn is there whether it is used for fuel or feed. That is until the GMO corn became the craze. Maybe they would quit planting at the edges of streams and river bottoms though.

China has reduced US corn imports 85% due to GMO corn though.

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#3345446 - 04/17/14 10:17 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10426
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else?


Who is going to decide what they grow. Or if they can use their land to grow.

You?

When government supports your philosophy you like government.
When government doesn't support your philosophy you hate government.

And the world goes round and round.

Can you please show me where I stated the government should be deciding?
_________________________
“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky

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#3345458 - 04/17/14 10:27 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Tempest]
Tempest Offline


Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 10426
Loc: Las Vegas NV
Looks like a lot of farmers are getting caught in the ethanol bubble that was formed by the RFS, and now that the RFS mandates are lowering, that bubble is beginning to burst.

And those farmers are demanding that force of law continue to be used to compel others to buy their products:

http://www.agweek.com/event/article/id/22555/
_________________________
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#3345491 - 04/17/14 10:53 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
That's why the EPA wants 15% to maintain the mandated use. There are a lot of farmers who have bought new equipment and land because of their boon in corn. It will all unravel, especially if it's another dry year.

The GMO corn is great for the dry years though. Around me even with sparse summer rains the corn is producing what use to be bumper crop levels.

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#3375006 - 05/18/14 06:58 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Some countries may have reduced imports of U.S corn due to higher GMO volume, but that has not reduced the overall U.S. exports. They are still at very high levels. There is still considerable demand for U.S. corn and soybeans. The whole GMO scare was yet another ruse put out by the black helicopter crowd. There is no link to food problems created by GMO crop production. GMO is just a variation on hybrids.

I am not convinced of any ethanol bursting bubble thing. Even though the RFS mandates may reduce at a federal level, state and local governments have their own thing going on. And truth be told, that is what motivates the use of oxygenates like ethanol more than anything. And even if overall ethanol use goes down, considering that we import a heavy amount of ethanol since there is a government imposed limit on how much ethanol production from corn is allowed, the U.S. production should not be detrimentally affected. Only the market price may drop causing ethanol production to slow somewhat. Market prices are where its at in any production scenario.

And there will always be a consumer demand when the market price is competitive with gasoline. There are a few engines in the hopper that, using E85, can put diesels at a decided disadvantage. One, the 3.2L EBDI V6 engine designed by Ricardo and being tested by GM, puts out as much HP and Torque on E85 as the 6.6L Duramax diesel and gets a little better mpg at the same time, decreases production weights by over 400 Lb and do not need all the diesel emissions junk that they are stacking on diesel vehicles now. If engines like this get into the market, ethanol will become a more in demand fuel.

That is how it should have worked out from the beginning. Produce engines around the fuel so that it would stand on its own. With government mandates as they have been, it skewed the system and things never seemed to move forward in engines to take advantage of the unique characteristics of the fuel.
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#3375207 - 05/18/14 10:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
GMO is just a variation on hybrids.


No hybridisation has ever been able to cross a grass with a jellyfish, funnelweb spider, peanut, or the clostridium botulinum bacteria...to claim that its "just a variation on hybrids" demonstrates that you like the taste of their koolaid, rather than understanding hybridisation versus G.M..

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#3375310 - 05/19/14 02:04 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
GMO is just a variation on hybrids.


No hybridisation has ever been able to cross a grass with a jellyfish, funnelweb spider, peanut, or the clostridium botulinum bacteria...to claim that its "just a variation on hybrids" demonstrates that you like the taste of their koolaid, rather than understanding hybridisation versus G.M..


They're not creating Frankenstein. It's just corn.

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#3375323 - 05/19/14 03:28 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
OK then...explain how the normal cross breeding of grass produces BT Toxin...if it's "just corn"

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#3375724 - 05/19/14 03:34 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Tempest]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Tempest

Could the 25-40% of land that goes into corn ethanol production not be used for something else?


Who is going to decide what they grow. Or if they can use their land to grow.

You?

When government supports your philosophy you like government.
When government doesn't support your philosophy you hate government.

And the world goes round and round.

Can you please show me where I stated the government should be deciding?



Nope. He won't.

Expect less, you'll get it!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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Just like we go to Publix

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#3377324 - 05/21/14 12:04 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
OK then...explain how the normal cross breeding of grass produces BT Toxin...if it's "just corn"


You're also an expert in genetics?

Originally Posted By: Steve
Expect less you'll get it!


You definitely won't get anymore of my time. There's not much that you can come up that will interest thinking people. You'll do better to find an Obama haters site.

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#3377537 - 05/21/14 04:26 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
OK then...explain how the normal cross breeding of grass produces BT Toxin...if it's "just corn"


You're also an expert in genetics?


Don't be a fool...when the manufacturer tells you that they've spliced the gene in to produce BT toxin, they have immediately told you that it's not just hybridising, it's "genetic engineering"...mixing genes from species that never could hybridise in nature.

same as when they show glow in the dark jelly fish gene splice mice and plants.

If no corn in nature produces the BT toxin, then it's not "just corn", unless you happen to like the koolaid made with that particular HFCS...

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#3377573 - 05/21/14 05:00 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: turtlevette]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Steve
Expect less you'll get it!


You definitely won't get anymore of my time. There's not much that you can come up that will interest thinking people. You'll do better to find an Obama haters site.


I certainly do not need any more of your time here, that's for sure. You may as well go to a full on left wing circus the way you regurgitate their garbage. No one here "hates" anyone, we just don't all drink the ethanol laced kool aid.

Imagining that you are the smartest person in the room is not working for you. Sorry, it is a bit sad to watch.

We go for FACTS here, man. Not baloney. And you must work for Boars Head!


Edited by SteveSRT8 (05/21/14 05:03 PM)
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#3377614 - 05/21/14 05:51 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 932
Loc: Florida
Last two days have been crazy around here. Splicing animals and plants together is just like we've always done it and running a hose and pumping gas from underground tanks without paying for it isn't stealing. And people were complaining about folks recommending 5W-30 when the manual said 5W-20.
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#3377996 - 05/22/14 04:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
Last two days have been crazy around here. Splicing animals and plants together is just like we've always done it and running a hose and pumping gas from underground tanks without paying for it isn't stealing. And people were complaining about folks recommending 5W-30 when the manual said 5W-20.



Hahaha, there is always entertainment at BITOG. Splitting hairs is what we do...
_________________________
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J. William Fulbright
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#3380439 - 05/24/14 11:56 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
GMO is just a variation on hybrids.


No hybridisation has ever been able to cross a grass with a jellyfish, funnelweb spider, peanut, or the clostridium botulinum bacteria...to claim that its "just a variation on hybrids" demonstrates that you like the taste of their koolaid, rather than understanding hybridisation versus G.M..


Ok, some of the primary reasons for GMO research is for the very reasons we developed hybrids. One of the first major reasons, was to make sure corn was resistant to being affected by herbicides like Round Up. That could not be done thru normal hybrid research. Others are to make corn more drought resistant, more resistant to various pests, produce corn that produces more sugars, oils, etc. This is what hybrid development was all about, but hybrid development is like most things, you bump up against a wall. GMO research allows for getting around that wall. It is all that simple. It is not creating corn that now will kill every one. What would be the point of that? Try to improve crop yields just to kill off the consumer?

It was stated correctly, it is not like GMO research is all about creating some form of frankenstein. GMO research is not about crossing corn with soybeans, oats, wheat, pine trees, or, jellyfish. It is about increasing the stamina of the corn and increasing the yields. In other words, making it so that more people can benefit from what corn can be produced. You know.... feeding the world. Being able to produce more corn, on the same limited ground, with less water, with less pesticides, with less tillage, to feed an increasing human and animal population.

And there is no, I repeat, NO, example of human or animal negative effects in consuming GMO crops. Just the scare tactics of myopic fools.
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#3384131 - 05/29/14 05:01 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Report out today that the 1.39 billion cut that EPA has proposed would have the same environmental impact as taking 580,000 cars off the road. That translates that if you end corn ethanol it would have the same impact as taking 6 million cars off the road. This administration is going to have hard time avoiding this environmental issue.

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#3384773 - 05/30/14 10:15 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: chuck1955]
dlundblad Online   happy


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1459
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Report out today that the 1.39 billion cut that EPA has proposed would have the same environmental impact as taking 580,000 cars off the road. That translates that if you end corn ethanol it would have the same impact as taking 6 million cars off the road. This administration is going to have hard time avoiding this environmental issue.


Could you dummy this up for me? I am having a hard time understanding it. lol.
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#3384797 - 05/30/14 11:10 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: dlundblad]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: chuck1955
Report out today that the 1.39 billion cut that EPA has proposed would have the same environmental impact as taking 580,000 cars off the road. That translates that if you end corn ethanol it would have the same impact as taking 6 million cars off the road. This administration is going to have hard time avoiding this environmental issue.


Could you dummy this up for me? I am having a hard time understanding it. lol.


yeah it's a mouthful for sure! If the figures are accurate (this group revises the numbers later at will) this means using ethanol is about 5,420,000 cars worse than nothing!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
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#3384913 - 05/30/14 01:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: SteveSRT8]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2480
Loc: Upper Midwest
Yes, what he means is that the report he referenced (can you post a link?) shows that there is a net negative environmental impact to the use of ethanol as motor fuel. In other words, it is worse to use ethanol as fuel than if we did not use it. Therefore, not using 1.39 billion (gallons?) of ethanol results in "helping" the environment just the same as if 580,000 fewer cars were on the road.
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#3385019 - 05/30/14 04:06 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
chuck1955 Offline


Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 59
Loc: minnesota
Sorry I should have been more clear and I not good at links. The Environmental Working Group (EWG) posted an article (Ethanol's Broken Promise). The group calls out the RFS to be more truthful in their claims about clean air. In their analyst they found the impact corn ethanol has verses gasoline would be the same as taking 580,000 cars off the road if EPA sticks to their 1.39 billion gallon cut in the mandate. If the mandate were 15 billion gallons total, removing the ethanol would be the same as taking 6,260,000 cars off the road. They only talked about the 1.39 billion gallon cut but if you look at the whole program how do you not put and end to this boondoggle and not allow it till it meets emission levels lower than gasoline?

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#3385030 - 05/30/14 04:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Don't forget all those trucks and trains that have to haul the ethanol because they can't put it down the pipeline.

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#3403160 - 06/21/14 04:56 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I'll take whatever environmental "impact" ethanol may have compared to the days of the 60's and 70's pollution. Sometimes it is beneficial to remember where we have been compared to what we have now. As much as the chicken little crowd thinks the sky is falling, what we have today is virtually a paradise compared to the pollution and environmental impacts of the past. Haven't heard of a river catching on fire lately like it did to the Cuyahoga river back in the day. And sometimes a little bit of exaggeration is in order also....... per George Carlin.... "scientists today have determined that saliva causes stomach cancer. However, only when swallowed in small amounts over a long period of time."

That ethanol is not quite the ideal fuel to answer all of our ills, it is hardly the beginning of the end of life as we know it on the planet. After all, compare the environmental impact of a spilled tanker of ethanol and a spilled tanker of gasoline. I would prefer the ethanol spill. At least it is biodegradable.
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#3403376 - 06/21/14 10:01 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Ethanol is a lousy fuel and is expensive to make. Drives up food prices.

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#3403501 - 06/22/14 01:36 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
That ethanol is not quite the ideal fuel to answer all of our ills, it is hardly the beginning of the end of life as we know it on the planet. After all, compare the environmental impact of a spilled tanker of ethanol and a spilled tanker of gasoline. I would prefer the ethanol spill. At least it is biodegradable.


Bieing miscible in any percentage with water wuld make the ethanol spill a disaster and harder to clean up
Hydrocarbons will float on lakes, and atop the groundwater, making their extraction and clean-up way easier than with things like ethanol, MTBE, Glycol also biodegradable) etc.

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#3403971 - 06/22/14 05:33 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
But unlike MTBE, ethanol is not a carcinogen.

What drives up food prices is the falling value of the dollar, called inflation. Beef is easily double the value of a few years ago, on the hoof, Pork is about 40% higher, and poultry is about 20% higher, with overall consumer food prices up about 15%. But corn is the same price it was 20 years ago. there have been some fluctuations in corn price, for sure, due to a drought a couple of years ago, etc. But the price has been fairly consistent on average since the Clinton administration. Kinda hard to justify that ethanol production drives up food prices. And not sure how it would anyway. Only a portion of a kernel of corn is used for ethanol production. Most of the kernel is actually used for other things, primary high protein feed supplements.

Roughly 15-20% of the U.S. corn production is actually used for human consumption. Of the 80% left, only 40% of the that is used for ethanol production, and 80% of that corn is also made into other feed products. Only the starches and sugars from the kernel are needed for ethanol production.

If it is so expensive to make, then why is it cheaper on the exchange market than gasoline? No, it is not because it is subsidized, because ethanol producer subsidies were eliminated over 2 years ago. Ethanol as a commodity on the futures exchange markets was $2.082 on Friday June 20. Gasoline was $3.122. Sounds pretty competitive to me.

Sure, it is not the "perfect" fuel, as there is really no such thing. All fuels have their positives and negatives. But it is a good fuel in the right application. After all, when GM and Ricardo can design a V6 3.2L EBDI engine that gets the same HP and Torque as the 6.6L Duramax diesel, and do it on E85 and get better economy, I would say that E85 has a place in the fuels game.

I can understand that some have some personal bias against ethanol, and that's cool. Personally, ever since I read a Popular Mechanics article where they took an AMC V8 and converted it to hydrogen, much the same way that you would convert to propane or NG, I have been chomping at the bit for a hydrogen internal combustion engine along with a reliable source of hydrogen to fuel it, so I have no love affair with ethanol or gasoline.
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#3404065 - 06/22/14 07:48 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11178
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Bieing miscible in any percentage with water wuld make the ethanol spill a disaster and harder to clean up

I was just reading a paper the other day about ethanol in the environment, and the half life is under 10 days out of the sun and about 0.25 days in the sun. Due to its miscibility, it won't really accumulate in groundwater.

TiredTrucker: Ethanol is a carcinogen, but just not the same way that some other fuel components are - long term, low concentration exposure isn't an issue.
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3424978 - 07/14/14 09:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Just hauled another load of high protein feed supplement to Howard City, MI from the biofuel refinery at Blair, NE. Some livestock are going to love that feed supplement made from dried distillers grain that was the base stock for ethanol production. Yep, every bushel of corn that is used for ethanol production is taken out of circulation from the feed supply. NOT! And the folks that mix this high protein product in feeds must really like it, because they are sure willing to ante up to have me bring it to them. While I was at the Blair facility, train car after train car (no not tanker cars of ethanol, though they were being loaded up too) and intermodel container after container were being loaded with food products made in conjunction with ethanol production. Y'all ought to take the time out when you take a trip somewhere and take a tour of a major biofuels facility. Could be a real eye opener.
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Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3424999 - 07/14/14 09:51 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1650
Loc: Illinois
Is the cost and calorie content the same as raw grain? More to feed than protein.

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#3425109 - 07/14/14 11:45 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I never meant to imply that the product was the only thing fed to some livestock. It is a feed supplement. Of course, the cost is higher than raw grain, since it is a processed feed. But likewise, it has a higher protein concentration than raw grain. The same can be said for soy meal. I suppose one could feed raw soybeans to livestock, but it might not work out as well. But processed soy meal is a better product, and the oil is removed during that process and goes in to other things like biodiesel. Livestock across the spectrum being raised for meat production have the product mixed into the feed. It is but one part of any nutritional feeding program for livestock. Chelated minerals are also mixed in. And the feed itself is a mix of different items from legumes to grasses to grains. Anyone who thinks that cattle in a feed lot only eat corn are misinformed quite a bit. Just like humans, it takes a well rounded diet to produce quality livestock for slaughter. And it has been widely accepted that supplements made from dried distillers grain also help prevent intestinal colitis in feedlot animals.

While ethanol may be one product from corn, it is hardly the only product from the very same corn.
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Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3425154 - 07/15/14 02:25 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26330
Loc: a prison island
TT...in another thread, you explained that cirn was grass and tgat was why it was good to feed cattle...a bit different to the latest post

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#3425206 - 07/15/14 06:26 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Corn is a grass, but it is a grass that also has a grain. Wheat falls into that as well as oats. The entire corn plant is fed to cattle in some situations, also known as silage. But even though it is good to feed to cattle, it is only part of a balanced diet, supplements are used also. just wondering what part of "supplement" is difficult to deal with here. When you want to build up muscle (you know... meat) then you want to increase, or supplement, the protein content of what you eat. Ask the guy at the GNC counter when you are at the shopping mall. Well, Biolys, the product I hauled that is made from DDG is a high protein feed supplement that is mixed into the feed. But it is not the only supplement used. Go to a local feed mill and ask them what they mix in a typical poetry, swine, or cattle feed.
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Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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