Preventive sludge action on a TDi

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: weebl
Originally Posted By: TugaSaudade
After reading here that VW50700 would not be the best choice for a 2002 PD TDi engine, and trying to avoid camshaft trouble




Originally Posted By: edyvw
You need 505.01 oil!


Really? Because VW said so? He is out of warranty, and I have reaason to believe that specification is lacking in protecting this engine. If I bought a related BEW equipped car out of warranty, I would not necessarily use a 505.01 oil myself.

Hmmm, let me think, VW says drivers should use VW 505.01 and you say they should not. Who will I listen? Guy who "think" it is not necessary or people who actually designe engine? Tough decision!

 

[zanzabar]

I hate to break it to ya, but weebl is right. It's pretty safe to say that most of the BEW and BRM camshaft failures were on TDIs using 505.01 oils. It's been discussed ad nauseum on TDIclub.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: zanzabar
I hate to break it to ya, but weebl is right. It's pretty safe to say that most of the BEW and BRM camshaft failures were on TDIs using 505.01 oils. It's been discussed ad nauseum on TDIclub.

So you wanna say that 505.01 is sole problem when it comes to cam failure?
Also, question is asked by someone in Europe, and I am also coming from Europe and never heard of that problem. 505.01 is standard there in most of the oils. You pretty much cannot by 5W40 on gas station or parts store that does not meet 505.01.
So to say that 505.01 is responsible for cam failure in those engine codes would be based on what?

 

[weebl]

Absolutely not, the 505.01 is not the sole problem. It is a contributing factor in that it doesn't slow down the wear better than some oils that may not meet that spec. Not to say there aren't oils meeting that spec that are better for the wear. I never did dig deeper as I never owned a BEW, but there is an additive that is either specifically excluded in 505.01 that alleviates this wear, or most formulations of 505.01 lack the additive. The BEW as far as I'm aware was a North American version of this particular TDI family, and hence, has variations VW made for this market. Those variations probably also accelerated the cam wear, meaning you didn't hear much about it in markets that did not have the BEW. The ATD is a close relative, and while the rate of cam wear problems probably isn't as high as a BEW to be heard everywhere, the fact the OP is aware of it suggests it is common enough to be of concern, and can be traced back to the same design flaws that are inherent in this engine family. Some iterations will have the problem magnified, and some won't.

I am someone who believes in always starting from the manufacturer spec and not straying from it, unless there is reason to believe that the spec is a mistake and actually more harmful than an alternative. I believe this is the case here. I see it as being very parallel to Honda and their Z-1 ATF, that accelerated the demise of their slushboxes, but by no means was that ATF the root cause - it was an inherent design flaw.

When a manufacturer's spec is working well, stick with it. When it doesn't, that's where it may make sense to try something else, but not blindly - do your homework first.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: zanzabar
I hate to break it to ya, but weebl is right. It's pretty safe to say that most of the BEW and BRM camshaft failures were on TDIs using 505.01 oils. It's been discussed ad nauseum on TDIclub.

So you wanna say that 505.01 is sole problem when it comes to cam failure?
Also, question is asked by someone in Europe, and I am also coming from Europe and never heard of that problem. 505.01 is standard there in most of the oils. You pretty much cannot by 5W40 on gas station or parts store that does not meet 505.01.
So to say that 505.01 is responsible for cam failure in those engine codes would be based on what?
505.01 does not prevent the problem. Non-505.01 oils have been known to slow down the wear rate (IIRC M1TDT is the weapon of choice for those owners). Oil alone cannot overcome bad engineering.

 

[Garak]

Just a question - was there any correlation with the wear with respect to sulphur levels in diesel here versus those in Europe?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: weebl
Absolutely not, the 505.01 is not the sole problem. It is a contributing factor in that it doesn't slow down the wear better than some oils that may not meet that spec. Not to say there aren't oils meeting that spec that are better for the wear. I never did dig deeper as I never owned a BEW, but there is an additive that is either specifically excluded in 505.01 that alleviates this wear, or most formulations of 505.01 lack the additive. The BEW as far as I'm aware was a North American version of this particular TDI family, and hence, has variations VW made for this market. Those variations probably also accelerated the cam wear, meaning you didn't hear much about it in markets that did not have the BEW. The ATD is a close relative, and while the rate of cam wear problems probably isn't as high as a BEW to be heard everywhere, the fact the OP is aware of it suggests it is common enough to be of concern, and can be traced back to the same design flaws that are inherent in this engine family. Some iterations will have the problem magnified, and some won't.

I am someone who believes in always starting from the manufacturer spec and not straying from it, unless there is reason to believe that the spec is a mistake and actually more harmful than an alternative. I believe this is the case here. I see it as being very parallel to Honda and their Z-1 ATF, that accelerated the demise of their slushboxes, but by no means was that ATF the root cause - it was an inherent design flaw.

When a manufacturer's spec is working well, stick with it. When it doesn't, that's where it may make sense to try something else, but not blindly - do your homework first.


I totally agree that you can find much better oild that might not meet 505.01 specifications.
However, fact that those engines are having problems with cams could be related to some other factors, probably something that is unique to the American market.
Considering that I always demanded more from the car in Europe than here in the US, i can only think that there is either problem with diesel fuel or oils on the market, unless engines for the US market are designed differently than for Europe.
Still, I cannot remember when was last time i picked up 5W40 oil in Europe that did not have 505.01 specification together with many others, so I just cannot believe that quality of TDI engines for the U.S market would be so different then for the Euopean market. There has to be something else that contributes to the cam failure. Maybe 505.01 oils for the U.S market are just not that good (Castrol).

 

[zanzabar]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: weebl
Absolutely not, the 505.01 is not the sole problem. It is a contributing factor in that it doesn't slow down the wear better than some oils that may not meet that spec. ....

When a manufacturer's spec is working well, stick with it. When it doesn't, that's where it may make sense to try something else, but not blindly - do your homework first.


I totally agree that you can find much better oild that might not meet 505.01 specifications.
However, fact that those engines are having problems with cams could be related to some other factors, probably something that is unique to the American market.
...
There has to be something else that contributes to the cam failure. Maybe 505.01 oils for the U.S market are just not that good (Castrol).


^ this is a great summary of my understanding on this issue

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: zanzabar
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: weebl
Absolutely not, the 505.01 is not the sole problem. It is a contributing factor in that it doesn't slow down the wear better than some oils that may not meet that spec. ....

When a manufacturer's spec is working well, stick with it. When it doesn't, that's where it may make sense to try something else, but not blindly - do your homework first.


I totally agree that you can find much better oild that might not meet 505.01 specifications.
However, fact that those engines are having problems with cams could be related to some other factors, probably something that is unique to the American market.
...
There has to be something else that contributes to the cam failure. Maybe 505.01 oils for the U.S market are just not that good (Castrol).


^ this is a great summary of my understanding on this issue

Then you get good 505.01 oil, like Motul or Total!

 

[weebl]

Seems the 5W-30 viscosity of 505.01 should be avoided, particularly the Castrol in North America:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=323914

M1 TDT is being touted as a good option for delaying the inevitable. I don't know the specs of M1 TDT, but perhaps it is oils with higher ZDDP that delay the wear. Someone familiar with M1 TDT could probably tell us what is unique about this oil.

 

[zanzabar]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Then you get good 505.01 oil, like Motul or Total!


That should say "Then you get a good ... oil. Period!"

There is nothing special about 505.01 that makes it magically protect cams better than other good quality 5-40 diesel synthetics. The 505.01 spec is there to meet a variety of conditions, mostly pertaining to emissions. If you can live with marginally higher probability of contaminating your PD's catalytic converter, then in my opinion you will find many more options for synthetic diesel oils that will be better at protecting your camshaft. Many of these will also cost less and are easier to find than Motul or Total (which I'm sure are also very good oils).

Bob Fout sums it up nicely :
Quote:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/vw_tb_17-05-04.pdf

VW 505.01 was created when PD TDIs first entered the scene in 2000 (In the rest of the world). PDs were the next step from VE to satisfy emissions (like happened here between 2003 and 2004). Part of satisfying emissions is less "bad" additives in oil and more "good" additives. VW 505.01 satisfies these emissions regs this AND meets more stringent specs than previous oils (at the time). It's also formulated to handle the PD top-end AND for certain hi-po Audi gas engines.

Part of VW specs is viscosity, cold weather starting etc.

The reason those other oils (CJ-4) don't meet specs is because they could never meet all the specs. They have too many "bad" additives and are too thick for the application in question. There sometimes are minimums and maximums in a spec.

If there really was a problem with 505.01, we'd see more failed cams then we do. Are API CJ-4 oils great in PDs? Sure are. Will it keep a bad cam from failing? Nope.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=297342

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: zanzabar
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Then you get good 505.01 oil, like Motul or Total!


That should say "Then you get a good ... oil. Period!"

There is nothing special about 505.01 that makes it magically protect cams better than other good quality 5-40 diesel synthetics. The 505.01 spec is there to meet a variety of conditions, mostly pertaining to emissions. If you can live with marginally higher probability of contaminating your PD's catalytic converter, then in my opinion you will find many more options for synthetic diesel oils that will be better at protecting your camshaft. Many of these will also cost less and are easier to find than Motul or Total (which I'm sure are also very good oils).

Bob Fout sums it up nicely :
Quote:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/vw_tb_17-05-04.pdf

VW 505.01 was created when PD TDIs first entered the scene in 2000 (In the rest of the world). PDs were the next step from VE to satisfy emissions (like happened here between 2003 and 2004). Part of satisfying emissions is less "bad" additives in oil and more "good" additives. VW 505.01 satisfies these emissions regs this AND meets more stringent specs than previous oils (at the time). It's also formulated to handle the PD top-end AND for certain hi-po Audi gas engines.

Part of VW specs is viscosity, cold weather starting etc.

The reason those other oils (CJ-4) don't meet specs is because they could never meet all the specs. They have too many "bad" additives and are too thick for the application in question. There sometimes are minimums and maximums in a spec.

If there really was a problem with 505.01, we'd see more failed cams then we do. Are API CJ-4 oils great in PDs? Sure are. Will it keep a bad cam from failing? Nope.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=297342


If I had that engine in the U.S, I would use 505.01 but Motul, Total or some other European manufacturer. I would def. avoid using nonspecified oil just because someone said "oh it is same."
I just cannot wrap my mind that people want to drive certain car and they will pay more money then what they would spend on Kia or whatever, but they will try to save $5 or $15 on oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
If I had that engine in the U.S, I would use 505.01 but Motul, Total or some other European manufacturer.


Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40? No VW spec, but MB 228.31 and 228.3, ACEA E7/E5, CJ-4, sulphated ash of 1.0. How far of a deviation could this possibly be from the specified oil, particularly with an engine out of warranty?

 

[weebl]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
If I had that engine in the U.S, I would use 505.01 but Motul, Total or some other European manufacturer. I would def. avoid using nonspecified oil just because someone said "oh it is same."
I just cannot wrap my mind that people want to drive certain car and they will pay more money then what they would spend on Kia or whatever, but they will try to save $5 or $15 on oil.


Wow, just wow. I don't recall this thread being about "the cheapest oil," it was about the best suited oil for the OP.

You are obviously a VW fanboy and feel they can make no mistakes or do no wrong. Well, they aren't infallible, just like every other automaker. They have all made engineering mistakes. This dicussion is about choosing an oil that mitigates that mistake, whether it meets original factory specs or not.

Did you see anyone suggest going to the dollar store and grabbing a bottle of "Bullseye Motor Oil" because it is really the same as "Total Quartz Ineo MC3"? Didn't think so.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: weebl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
If I had that engine in the U.S, I would use 505.01 but Motul, Total or some other European manufacturer. I would def. avoid using nonspecified oil just because someone said "oh it is same."
I just cannot wrap my mind that people want to drive certain car and they will pay more money then what they would spend on Kia or whatever, but they will try to save $5 or $15 on oil.


Wow, just wow. I don't recall this thread being about "the cheapest oil," it was about the best suited oil for the OP.

You are obviously a VW fanboy and feel they can make no mistakes or do no wrong. Well, they aren't infallible, just like every other automaker. They have all made engineering mistakes. This dicussion is about choosing an oil that mitigates that mistake, whether it meets original factory specs or not.

Did you see anyone suggest going to the dollar store and grabbing a bottle of "Bullseye Motor Oil" because it is really the same as "Total Quartz Ineo MC3"? Didn't think so.


I said there is no point saving few bucks on oil.
I did not say that VW cannot make mistakes. In life I had only two VW's, had much better engines then theirs.

 

[kbowley]

Mobil One 0w40 certainly meets the 505 vw spec, as well as 502;

Mobil 1 0W-40 meets or exceeds the requirements of:
API SN/SM/SL/SJ
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
Nissan GT-R

Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builders approval:
MB-Approval 229.3
MB-Approval 229.5
BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01
VW 502 00
VW 505 00
PORSCHE A40

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 0W-40 is of the following quality level:
API CF
VW 503 01
SAAB
OPEL Long Life Service Fill GM-LL-A-025
OPEL Diesel Service Fill GM-LL-B-025
FIAT FIAT 9.55535 – M2
FIAT FIAT 9.55525 – N2
FIAT FIAT 9.55535 – Z2


That said, this would be my choice in that engine, second choice would be M1 ESP 5w30;

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:

BMW Longlife 04
MB-Approval 229.31/229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline/Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
Chrysler MS-11106
Peugeot/Citroën Automobiles
B71 2290
B71 2297
AvtoVAZ Group "Luxe"
AAE Standard STO 003-05, Group B6

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 meets or exceeds the requirements of:
ACEA C2/C3
API (Meets Engine Test Requirements) SM/SN
JASO DL-1

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is of the following quality level:
API CF
Volkswagen (Gasoline)* 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen (Diesel)* 505 00 / 505 01 / 506 00 / 506 01

 

[edyvw]

Mobil1 0W40 does not meet 505.01!

Originally Posted By: kbowley
Mobil One 0w40 certainly meets the 505 vw spec, as well as 502;

Mobil 1 0W-40 meets or exceeds the requirements of:
API SN/SM/SL/SJ
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
Nissan GT-R

Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builders approval:
MB-Approval 229.3
MB-Approval 229.5
BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01
VW 502 00
VW 505 00
PORSCHE A40

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 0W-40 is of the following quality level:
API CF
VW 503 01
SAAB
OPEL Long Life Service Fill GM-LL-A-025
OPEL Diesel Service Fill GM-LL-B-025
FIAT FIAT 9.55535 – M2
FIAT FIAT 9.55525 – N2
FIAT FIAT 9.55535 – Z2


That said, this would be my choice in that engine, second choice would be M1 ESP 5w30;

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:

BMW Longlife 04
MB-Approval 229.31/229.51
Volkswagen (Gasoline/Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00
Porsche C30
Chrysler MS-11106
Peugeot/Citroën Automobiles
B71 2290
B71 2297
AvtoVAZ Group "Luxe"
AAE Standard STO 003-05, Group B6

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 meets or exceeds the requirements of:
ACEA C2/C3
API (Meets Engine Test Requirements) SM/SN
JASO DL-1

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is of the following quality level:
API CF
Volkswagen (Gasoline)* 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen (Diesel)* 505 00 / 505 01 / 506 00 / 506 01

 

[zanzabar]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Mobil1 0W40 does not meet 505.01!


So? I thought we went over this already.

I wouldn't use the 5-30 ESP though, and there are probably a couple better options from Mobil than the 0-40 for TDIs - like TDT or the 5-40 Formula M ESP.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: zanzabar
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Mobil1 0W40 does not meet 505.01!


So? I thought we went over this already.

I wouldn't use the 5-30 ESP though, and there are probably a couple better options from Mobil than the 0-40 for TDIs - like TDT or the 5-40 Formula M ESP.


I am just saying that it does not meet 505.01. If it meets 505.00 that does not mean 505.01, considering 505.00 is like 20+ year old specification.
And still, in availability of 505.01, I would use it before TDT or any other oil that does not meet that specification.

 

[zanzabar]

In a PD TDI I would use the Mobil1 Formula M 5-40 505.01 oil over TDT for sure (if you are not concerned about price and availability), but I'd be perfectly comfortable with TDT. However, I would definitely choose TDT over the Mobil1 5-30 ESP 505.01 oil.

Let's just make this clear for posterity: don't use any of the 5-30 505.01 oils in a PD TDI!