Motorcraft FL820S
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Different class of filter. 820 is a shorter OCI filter, and D+ is a long OCI filter. D+ has higher filtering efficiency also.
Thanks for the info!
Do you happen to know which end the pressure relief valve is located on the D+ by any chance? Motorcraft seems to make a big issue with the fact that theirs is located at the inlet, and make it sound like filters with PRVs located at the dome end are inferior.
Different class of filter. 820 is a shorter OCI filter, and D+ is a long OCI filter. D+ has higher filtering efficiency also.
Thanks for the info!
Do you happen to know which end the pressure relief valve is located on the D+ by any chance? Motorcraft seems to make a big issue with the fact that theirs is located at the inlet, and make it sound like filters with PRVs located at the dome end are inferior.
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Do you happen to know which end the pressure relief valve is located on the D+ by any chance? Motorcraft seems to make a big issue with the fact that theirs is located at the inlet, and make it sound like filters with PRVs located at the dome end are inferior.
D+ will be dome end bypass valve setup. If a base end bypass valve is an important factor, then go for the Motorcraft. Most people don't sweat the location of the bypass valve. If it was that important, all filters would have base end bypass valves. A base end bypass valve is something Ford likes ... probably because of the orientation of the filter on most of their engines.
Do you happen to know which end the pressure relief valve is located on the D+ by any chance? Motorcraft seems to make a big issue with the fact that theirs is located at the inlet, and make it sound like filters with PRVs located at the dome end are inferior.
D+ will be dome end bypass valve setup. If a base end bypass valve is an important factor, then go for the Motorcraft. Most people don't sweat the location of the bypass valve. If it was that important, all filters would have base end bypass valves. A base end bypass valve is something Ford likes ... probably because of the orientation of the filter on most of their engines.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
D+ will be dome end bypass valve setup. If a base end bypass valve is an important factor, then go for the Motorcraft. Most people don't sweat the location of the bypass valve. If it was that important, all filters would have base end bypass valves.
I don't think it's really an option, at least for filters which will fit on Fords. There isn't a single non-Motorcraft/Ford filter which is an 820S replacement with a base-end bypass, and that's not an accident. If you search the interwebs, it seems to be a patent enforcement issue more than anything else.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A base end bypass valve is something Ford likes ... probably because of the orientation of the filter on most of their engines.
Why would that matter? If unfiltered oil is washing over the media, I can't imagine orientation making much of a difference--but maybe I'm not visualizing this correctly (entirely possible).
As far as OCI's and the 820S, I've use both the regular and the racing 820s' for 15K-17K (2 OCI's) and they both held up just fine. They didn't even look that dirty. Of course, that's in a clean engine with a known maintenance history since new. YMMV and all that.
D+ will be dome end bypass valve setup. If a base end bypass valve is an important factor, then go for the Motorcraft. Most people don't sweat the location of the bypass valve. If it was that important, all filters would have base end bypass valves.
I don't think it's really an option, at least for filters which will fit on Fords. There isn't a single non-Motorcraft/Ford filter which is an 820S replacement with a base-end bypass, and that's not an accident. If you search the interwebs, it seems to be a patent enforcement issue more than anything else.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A base end bypass valve is something Ford likes ... probably because of the orientation of the filter on most of their engines.
Why would that matter? If unfiltered oil is washing over the media, I can't imagine orientation making much of a difference--but maybe I'm not visualizing this correctly (entirely possible).
As far as OCI's and the 820S, I've use both the regular and the racing 820s' for 15K-17K (2 OCI's) and they both held up just fine. They didn't even look that dirty. Of course, that's in a clean engine with a known maintenance history since new. YMMV and all that.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
D+ will be dome end bypass valve setup. If a base end bypass valve is an important factor, then go for the Motorcraft. Most people don't sweat the location of the bypass valve. If it was that important, all filters would have base end bypass valves.
I don't think it's really an option, at least for filters which will fit on Fords. There isn't a single non-Motorcraft/Ford filter which is an 820S replacement with a base-end bypass, and that's not an accident. If you search the interwebs, it seems to be a patent enforcement issue more than anything else.
FYI ... there are some Motorcraft oil filters that do not have a base end bypass valve, but instead a dome end bypass valve. So just because it's a Motorcraft filter doesn't automatically mean it has a base end bypass. Example:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...446#Post1521446
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A base end bypass valve is something Ford likes ... probably because of the orientation of the filter on most of their engines.
Why would that matter? If unfiltered oil is washing over the media, I can't imagine orientation making much of a difference--but maybe I'm not visualizing this correctly (entirely possible).
Most Ford engines at one time mounted the oil filter with the base end typically pointing up to some degree. Ford's theory and the reason they liked a base end bypass is because debris and sediment could collect at the dome end (bottom end in this case) of the filter when the engine was turned off, and debris could possibly be swept thought the bypass valve on initial cold start-up.
Who was that rude noob that always talked cockamamie about "top end" bypass valves?
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
D+ will be dome end bypass valve setup. If a base end bypass valve is an important factor, then go for the Motorcraft. Most people don't sweat the location of the bypass valve. If it was that important, all filters would have base end bypass valves.
I don't think it's really an option, at least for filters which will fit on Fords. There isn't a single non-Motorcraft/Ford filter which is an 820S replacement with a base-end bypass, and that's not an accident. If you search the interwebs, it seems to be a patent enforcement issue more than anything else.
FYI ... there are some Motorcraft oil filters that do not have a base end bypass valve, but instead a dome end bypass valve. So just because it's a Motorcraft filter doesn't automatically mean it has a base end bypass. Example:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...446#Post1521446
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A base end bypass valve is something Ford likes ... probably because of the orientation of the filter on most of their engines.
Why would that matter? If unfiltered oil is washing over the media, I can't imagine orientation making much of a difference--but maybe I'm not visualizing this correctly (entirely possible).
Most Ford engines at one time mounted the oil filter with the base end typically pointing up to some degree. Ford's theory and the reason they liked a base end bypass is because debris and sediment could collect at the dome end (bottom end in this case) of the filter when the engine was turned off, and debris could possibly be swept thought the bypass valve on initial cold start-up.
Who was that rude noob that always talked cockamamie about "top end" bypass valves?
I think what JOD was referring to in the first part of his post was that any non Motorcraft FL820S equivalent can't be found with a thread end bypass, he says because of patent enforcement. Now I don't know about the about the patent enforcement portion of the statement but he may be correct about the former.
There have been several posts recently regarding the Wix equivalent application being a dome end bypass. That is unique for Wix, Napa Gold and I wondered why. The one posted in the Motorcraft comparison link shows the Wix with a silicone combo valve, but Wix must have quickly decided to dispense with that design because it's now dome end. IIRC, even the M1 posted here by overkill, had dome end. Perhaps JOD is correct. From what I've read, he's a pretty good and knowledgeable guy.
As for my response to RC, I was saying that I didn't think mine was all that much different from your's.
This should be fun to watch, see if he takes the bait.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
I think what JOD was referring to in the first part of his post was that any non Motorcraft FL820S equivalent can't be found with a thread end bypass, he says because of patent enforcement. Now I don't know about the about the patent enforcement portion of the statement but he may be correct about the former.
WIX and NAPA Golds have base end bypass valves for most vehicles, and have for many years ... so apparently Ford does not have a locked down patent on base end bypass valves - or is that top end bypass valves?
Originally Posted By: sayjac
There have been several posts recently regarding the Wix equivalent application being a dome end bypass. That is unique for Wix, Napa Gold and I wondered why. The one posted in the Motorcraft comparison link shows the Wix with a silicone combo valve, but Wix must have quickly decided to dispense with that design because it's now dome end. IIRC, even the M1 posted here by overkill, had dome end. Perhaps JOD is correct. From what I've read, he's a pretty good and knowledgeable guy.
Could be that's why they went to a dome end BPV ... no one will probably really know for sure, but it's a valid theory. If that was the case, then every WIX, NAPA or M1 filter that could fit a Ford would have had the BPV switched from the base to the dome end. Is that true for all of them? If not, then the theory doesn't compute.
I think what JOD was referring to in the first part of his post was that any non Motorcraft FL820S equivalent can't be found with a thread end bypass, he says because of patent enforcement. Now I don't know about the about the patent enforcement portion of the statement but he may be correct about the former.
WIX and NAPA Golds have base end bypass valves for most vehicles, and have for many years ... so apparently Ford does not have a locked down patent on base end bypass valves - or is that top end bypass valves?
Originally Posted By: sayjac
There have been several posts recently regarding the Wix equivalent application being a dome end bypass. That is unique for Wix, Napa Gold and I wondered why. The one posted in the Motorcraft comparison link shows the Wix with a silicone combo valve, but Wix must have quickly decided to dispense with that design because it's now dome end. IIRC, even the M1 posted here by overkill, had dome end. Perhaps JOD is correct. From what I've read, he's a pretty good and knowledgeable guy.
Could be that's why they went to a dome end BPV ... no one will probably really know for sure, but it's a valid theory. If that was the case, then every WIX, NAPA or M1 filter that could fit a Ford would have had the BPV switched from the base to the dome end. Is that true for all of them? If not, then the theory doesn't compute.
Take this for what it's worth--a conversation that I had with a Royal Purple customer service guy (who seemed pretty knowledgeable). They have several filters that have the bypass in the base. I called, asking about the location of the bypass for their 820S equivalent. He said there's a long-running patent issue with the bypass design, which was co-designed by Ford and someone else (Purolator, I think). And that Ford vigorously defends the patent for filters which cross-reference their filters. Maybe it's all nonsense, but in searching the interwebs to find an answer, there was a similar discussion on here claiming pretty much the same thing.
What I do know is that to my knowledge there's not a single 820S replacement available with a base-end bypass, except for the Ford Racing filter. That fact makes me think there's some truth to the story. Otherwise, it seems likely that companies who make filters with the bypass in the base would do it on their Ford-compatible filters?
I'm not making any claims about the importance of this, 'cause I really don't know. That said, I'll admit that's why I'm using the Ford Racing filter instead of the P1. I'd otherwise prefer the P1, just based on price and availability.
What I do know is that to my knowledge there's not a single 820S replacement available with a base-end bypass, except for the Ford Racing filter. That fact makes me think there's some truth to the story. Otherwise, it seems likely that companies who make filters with the bypass in the base would do it on their Ford-compatible filters?
I'm not making any claims about the importance of this, 'cause I really don't know. That said, I'll admit that's why I'm using the Ford Racing filter instead of the P1. I'd otherwise prefer the P1, just based on price and availability.
^^^Your explanation sounds very reasonable and it wasn't my intention for it to sound otherwise in my previous post.
It would explain why all the non Motorcraft FL820 equivalents posted here, have other than a thread end bypass. It is interesting the Ford would have that much power over the aftermarkets not using any type of thread end bypass. First I've heard of it.
It would explain why all the non Motorcraft FL820 equivalents posted here, have other than a thread end bypass. It is interesting the Ford would have that much power over the aftermarkets not using any type of thread end bypass. First I've heard of it.
If it was true that Ford is trying to defend the base end bypass valve design through patent infringement, then any aftermarket filter that could fit on any Ford vehicle shouldn't/wouldn't have a base end bypass valve ... not just FL820 equivalents. Can that be verified?
The only thing I can suggest (if the patent infringement issue is true, and I'm certainly not convinced of that) is that perhaps the FL820S was originally designed for Ford to Ford specifications only. Looking at the Wix site, the 51372's other primary applications are some Cadillacs. We know that GM favours bypass in the block, although I don't know if that's the case for these particular Cadillac engines.
So, assuming that GM has a bypass in the block, they wouldn't make a stink about thread end versus dome end. They wouldn't care if there wasn't one in the first place.
When one looks at something like the FL1A and the corresponding Wix 51515, both with thread end bypass, we have to remember that the corresponding application list is huge and across many manufacturers and model years. Trying to patent the FL1A design, at least in this point of the game, would be the equivalent of someone trying to patent the normal variant of the toilet paper roll design.
So, assuming that GM has a bypass in the block, they wouldn't make a stink about thread end versus dome end. They wouldn't care if there wasn't one in the first place.
When one looks at something like the FL1A and the corresponding Wix 51515, both with thread end bypass, we have to remember that the corresponding application list is huge and across many manufacturers and model years. Trying to patent the FL1A design, at least in this point of the game, would be the equivalent of someone trying to patent the normal variant of the toilet paper roll design.
The Wix 51372 is a base end bypass valve filter and is the FL820S replacement. I am currently using one on my GMQ. I don't know if any others are made that way but the Wix positively is.
I used to run the FL820S when I owned a 1999 Ford Contour SVT. I drove that car HARD, redline multiple times a day (stick shift, WOT acceleration multiple times daily, some road course duty. The FL820S was always good to me -- great looking UOAs going 10,000 mi OCI and using any premium synthetic, usually GC.
Car was traded with about 115k miles still running like new.
I would run the FL820S.
Car was traded with about 115k miles still running like new.
I would run the FL820S.
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Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Design patents only last 14 years. How long has the FL820 been around?
The long number begins with F1AZ which indicated a 1991 full size, first application I have seen is a 1991 Lincoln Town car followed in 1992 by the Crown Vic and the Grand Marquis. The number has updated from the original FL-820 to the FL-820S with a corresponding change in suffix. They also changed the design maybe around 2008ish and made the filter smaller. Each of those changes might have included a new patent, not sure. FWIW the Mazda AJTM-14-302 clone is literally identical.
Design patents only last 14 years. How long has the FL820 been around?
The long number begins with F1AZ which indicated a 1991 full size, first application I have seen is a 1991 Lincoln Town car followed in 1992 by the Crown Vic and the Grand Marquis. The number has updated from the original FL-820 to the FL-820S with a corresponding change in suffix. They also changed the design maybe around 2008ish and made the filter smaller. Each of those changes might have included a new patent, not sure. FWIW the Mazda AJTM-14-302 clone is literally identical.
well, I waded through all six pages, including the worthless rants, just to see if the FL820 is a good filter. Looks like it is a find filter, so I'll just keep using it.
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