Mobil 1 0w20 is a great oil, hard to find in 5 quart jugs but they are out there.
Is 0W-20 only available in synthetic
- Thread starter sir1900
- Start date
- Status
Honda has a 0W-20 SynBlend.
Originally Posted By: Capa
So it seems that there aren't any 0W dinos just either syn blend or synthetic. With the proliferation of synthetics I wonder how many decades before dino is, for the most part, history (pun intended).
Well, dino will be here as long as the internal-combustion engine and petroleum fuels are here. I don't know how many decades it will be though. Certainly, not after the world petroleum reserves are depleted.
So it seems that there aren't any 0W dinos just either syn blend or synthetic. With the proliferation of synthetics I wonder how many decades before dino is, for the most part, history (pun intended).
Well, dino will be here as long as the internal-combustion engine and petroleum fuels are here. I don't know how many decades it will be though. Certainly, not after the world petroleum reserves are depleted.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
A Group III syntactic 0W-20 has a NOACK of about 14% vs. the slightly less than 15% NOACK of a conventional 5W-20. Therefore, in terms of the quality of the basestock, there is not much difference. Group IV formulations will have less NOACK and higher quality. For 5,000-mile OCIs, there shouldn't be any problem.
If the 5W-20 is synthetic and under the same oil line (such as Mobil 1), it will have a lower NOACK than 0W-20, which means that it's made of a higher quality basestock that will allow you longer OCIs and more protection against wear and sludge. That (lower NOACK, hence shorter OCI because of faster oil cooking) is exactly the reason why Mobil 1 Extended Protection isn't offered for 0W-20. Unless the temperature is very, very cold (well-below freezing), chances are that you may even be better off with a 5W-20 synthetic than a 0W-20 synthetic.
First you don't exactly know the NOACK of most 0W-20 oils or what their base oil composition is.
Anyway for the sake of argument lets assume the NOACK is indeed higher for a 0W-20 synthetic vs a 5W-20 synthetic (a product btw that is unique to NA only) that doesn't mean that lower quality base oils are used but rather lighter base oils. So you really are comparing apples and oranges.
And the lightest oil readily available on the market; the Toyota 0W-20 has a recommended 10,000 OCI in the States and we've seen plenty of decent UOA at that interval which is plenty long enough for most of us.
And the main purpose of the high VI 0W-20 oils like the Toyota 0W-20 is all about a low start-up viscosity as possible even at temp's as high as 100F which is still a cold start as far as an engine is concerned. The fact that these oils also work well at extremely cold temp's is actually incidental to their main purpose. It's all about a high VI which primarily is to save fuel but having as oil as light as possible has many advantages.
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Thanks for the video. I'll watch it when the entire 357 MB downloads.
I define the quality of the basestock by how long it takes for the basestock to cook in the engine, which then requires an oil change. All basestocks (dino or synthetic) are of the same quality when they are new, as far as their lubrication efficiency and engine protection is concerned. But, under use in an engine, the NOACK volatility is what determines how long a basestock will last.
Sure, a high viscosity index is nice to have, but it has nothing to with how long a basestock lasts under use in an engine. Also, given how fast the engines warm up these days, it's not too critical for the oil to be a little thinner when the engine is cold (in other words, to have a higher viscosity index).
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
A Group III syntactic 0W-20 has a NOACK of about 14% vs. the slightly less than 15% NOACK of a conventional 5W-20. Therefore, in terms of the quality of the basestock, there is not much difference. Group IV formulations will have less NOACK and higher quality. For 5,000-mile OCIs, there shouldn't be any problem.
If the 5W-20 is synthetic and under the same oil line (such as Mobil 1), it will have a lower NOACK than 0W-20, which means that it's made of a higher quality basestock that will allow you longer OCIs and more protection against wear and sludge. That (lower NOACK, hence shorter OCI because of faster oil cooking) is exactly the reason why Mobil 1 Extended Protection isn't offered for 0W-20. Unless the temperature is very, very cold (well-below freezing), chances are that you may even be better off with a 5W-20 synthetic than a 0W-20 synthetic.
First you don't exactly know the NOACK of most 0W-20 oils or what their base oil composition is.
Anyway for the sake of argument lets assume the NOACK is indeed higher for a 0W-20 synthetic vs a 5W-20 synthetic (a product btw that is unique to NA only) that doesn't mean that lower quality base oils are used but rather lighter base oils. So you really are comparing apples and oranges.
And the lightest oil readily available on the market; the Toyota 0W-20 has a recommended 10,000 OCI in the States and we've seen plenty of decent UOA at that interval which is plenty long enough for most of us.
And the main purpose of the high VI 0W-20 oils like the Toyota 0W-20 is all about a low start-up viscosity as possible even at temp's as high as 100F which is still a cold start as far as an engine is concerned. The fact that these oils also work well at extremely cold temp's is actually incidental to their main purpose. It's all about a high VI which primarily is to save fuel but having as oil as light as possible has many advantages.
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Thanks for the video. I'll watch it when the entire 357 MB downloads.
I define the quality of the basestock by how long it takes for the basestock to cook in the engine, which then requires an oil change. All basestocks (dino or synthetic) are of the same quality when they are new, as far as their lubrication efficiency and engine protection is concerned. But, under use in an engine, the NOACK volatility is what determines how long a basestock will last.
Sure, a high viscosity index is nice to have, but it has nothing to with how long a basestock lasts under use in an engine. Also, given how fast the engines warm up these days, it's not too critical for the oil to be a little thinner when the engine is cold (in other words, to have a higher viscosity index).
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Awesome video, thanks for posting!
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Awesome video, thanks for posting!
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
A Group III syntactic 0W-20 has a NOACK of about 14% vs. the slightly less than 15% NOACK of a conventional 5W-20. Therefore, in terms of the quality of the basestock, there is not much difference. Group IV formulations will have less NOACK and higher quality. For 5,000-mile OCIs, there shouldn't be any problem.
If the 5W-20 is synthetic and under the same oil line (such as Mobil 1), it will have a lower NOACK than 0W-20, which means that it's made of a higher quality basestock that will allow you longer OCIs and more protection against wear and sludge. That (lower NOACK, hence shorter OCI because of faster oil cooking) is exactly the reason why Mobil 1 Extended Protection isn't offered for 0W-20. Unless the temperature is very, very cold (well-below freezing), chances are that you may even be better off with a 5W-20 synthetic than a 0W-20 synthetic.
First you don't exactly know the NOACK of most 0W-20 oils or what their base oil composition is.
Anyway for the sake of argument lets assume the NOACK is indeed higher for a 0W-20 synthetic vs a 5W-20 synthetic (a product btw that is unique to NA only) that doesn't mean that lower quality base oils are used but rather lighter base oils. So you really are comparing apples and oranges.
And the lightest oil readily available on the market; the Toyota 0W-20 has a recommended 10,000 OCI in the States and we've seen plenty of decent UOA at that interval which is plenty long enough for most of us.
And the main purpose of the high VI 0W-20 oils like the Toyota 0W-20 is all about a low start-up viscosity as possible even at temp's as high as 100F which is still a cold start as far as an engine is concerned. The fact that these oils also work well at extremely cold temp's is actually incidental to their main purpose. It's all about a high VI which primarily is to save fuel but having as oil as light as possible has many advantages.
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Thanks for the video. I'll watch it when the entire 357 MB downloads.
I define the quality of the basestock by how long it takes for the basestock to cook in the engine, which then requires an oil change. All basestocks (dino or synthetic) are of the same quality when they are new, as far as their lubrication efficiency and engine protection is concerned. But, under use in an engine, the NOACK volatility is what determines how long a basestock will last.
Sure, a high viscosity index is nice to have, but it has nothing to with how long a basestock lasts under use in an engine. Also, given how fast the engines warm up these days, it's not too critical for the oil to be a little thinner when the engine is cold (in other words, to have a higher viscosity index).
A high VI may not be important to you but it's the "holy grail" to auto manufacturers and motor oil formulators and it has been for the past 100 years.
What's the the defining difference between a GP II dino base oil and a GP III synthetic? The later must have a VI of at least 120; it's only 80 for a dino. NOACK doesn't enter the picture.
The emphasis you're placing on NOACK is misplaced. Yes it can be an issue for heavier oil grades where high oil temp's may apply but it is not of major importance in most 20wt applications since the maximum oil temp's are well contained.
Oil consumption has proven not to be an issue in vehicles for which a 20wt oil is specified and that includes OCIs of up to 10,000 miles.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
A Group III syntactic 0W-20 has a NOACK of about 14% vs. the slightly less than 15% NOACK of a conventional 5W-20. Therefore, in terms of the quality of the basestock, there is not much difference. Group IV formulations will have less NOACK and higher quality. For 5,000-mile OCIs, there shouldn't be any problem.
If the 5W-20 is synthetic and under the same oil line (such as Mobil 1), it will have a lower NOACK than 0W-20, which means that it's made of a higher quality basestock that will allow you longer OCIs and more protection against wear and sludge. That (lower NOACK, hence shorter OCI because of faster oil cooking) is exactly the reason why Mobil 1 Extended Protection isn't offered for 0W-20. Unless the temperature is very, very cold (well-below freezing), chances are that you may even be better off with a 5W-20 synthetic than a 0W-20 synthetic.
First you don't exactly know the NOACK of most 0W-20 oils or what their base oil composition is.
Anyway for the sake of argument lets assume the NOACK is indeed higher for a 0W-20 synthetic vs a 5W-20 synthetic (a product btw that is unique to NA only) that doesn't mean that lower quality base oils are used but rather lighter base oils. So you really are comparing apples and oranges.
And the lightest oil readily available on the market; the Toyota 0W-20 has a recommended 10,000 OCI in the States and we've seen plenty of decent UOA at that interval which is plenty long enough for most of us.
And the main purpose of the high VI 0W-20 oils like the Toyota 0W-20 is all about a low start-up viscosity as possible even at temp's as high as 100F which is still a cold start as far as an engine is concerned. The fact that these oils also work well at extremely cold temp's is actually incidental to their main purpose. It's all about a high VI which primarily is to save fuel but having as oil as light as possible has many advantages.
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Thanks for the video. I'll watch it when the entire 357 MB downloads.
I define the quality of the basestock by how long it takes for the basestock to cook in the engine, which then requires an oil change. All basestocks (dino or synthetic) are of the same quality when they are new, as far as their lubrication efficiency and engine protection is concerned. But, under use in an engine, the NOACK volatility is what determines how long a basestock will last.
Sure, a high viscosity index is nice to have, but it has nothing to with how long a basestock lasts under use in an engine. Also, given how fast the engines warm up these days, it's not too critical for the oil to be a little thinner when the engine is cold (in other words, to have a higher viscosity index).
A high VI may not be important to you but it's the "holy grail" to auto manufacturers and motor oil formulators and it has been for the past 100 years.
What's the the defining difference between a GP II dino base oil and a GP III synthetic? The later must have a VI of at least 120; it's only 80 for a dino. NOACK doesn't enter the picture.
The emphasis you're placing on NOACK is misplaced. Yes it can be an issue for heavier oil grades where high oil temp's may apply but it is not of major importance in most 20wt applications since the maximum oil temp's are well contained.
Oil consumption has proven not to be an issue in vehicles for which a 20wt oil is specified and that includes OCIs of up to 10,000 miles.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Awesome video, thanks for posting!
Thanks, it is pretty cool, but credit must go to Buster who first posted it a while ago.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The following video is about Sustina 0W-20 with it's 229 VI and demonstrates the advantage of a high VI oil quite nicely:
http://www.sustina.us/product-line.php
If you can, fast foreward through the first 1/3rd of it.
Awesome video, thanks for posting!
Thanks, it is pretty cool, but credit must go to Buster who first posted it a while ago.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
A high VI may not be important to you but it's the "holy grail" to auto manufacturers and motor oil formulators and it has been for the past 100 years.
What's the the defining difference between a GP II dino base oil and a GP III synthetic? The later must have a VI of at least 120; it's only 80 for a dino. NOACK doesn't enter the picture.
The emphasis you're placing on NOACK is misplaced. Yes it can be an issue for heavier oil grades where high oil temp's may apply but it is not of major importance in most 20wt applications since the maximum oil temp's are well contained.
Oil consumption has proven not to be an issue in vehicles for which a 20wt oil is specified and that includes OCIs of up to 10,000 miles.
If the viscosity index has been important in the last 100 years, NOACK is becoming the most important attribute these days. GM dexos1 now requires a stricter limit (13%) on all GM cars and the luxury manufacturers like Acura, Mercedes, etc. also require such lower limits.
NOACK isn't just about oil consumption. No well-built and well-maintained engine should consume much oil, regardless of viscosity. NOACK is the best indicator of how long the base oil will last in the engine. Lower the NOACK, more it takes the base oil to cook and deteriorate in the engine, requiring an oil change.
Besides, given that almost all PAO base oils used in motor oil have a viscosity index around 140, I am inclined to think that the high-viscosity-index (VI > 200) oils such as Toyota 0W-20, ENEOS 0W-20, etc. contain a lot of viscosity-index improvers, polymer additives that most people don't like, as they shear and permanently lower the viscosity and also lead to deposits and sludge.
A high VI may not be important to you but it's the "holy grail" to auto manufacturers and motor oil formulators and it has been for the past 100 years.
What's the the defining difference between a GP II dino base oil and a GP III synthetic? The later must have a VI of at least 120; it's only 80 for a dino. NOACK doesn't enter the picture.
The emphasis you're placing on NOACK is misplaced. Yes it can be an issue for heavier oil grades where high oil temp's may apply but it is not of major importance in most 20wt applications since the maximum oil temp's are well contained.
Oil consumption has proven not to be an issue in vehicles for which a 20wt oil is specified and that includes OCIs of up to 10,000 miles.
If the viscosity index has been important in the last 100 years, NOACK is becoming the most important attribute these days. GM dexos1 now requires a stricter limit (13%) on all GM cars and the luxury manufacturers like Acura, Mercedes, etc. also require such lower limits.
NOACK isn't just about oil consumption. No well-built and well-maintained engine should consume much oil, regardless of viscosity. NOACK is the best indicator of how long the base oil will last in the engine. Lower the NOACK, more it takes the base oil to cook and deteriorate in the engine, requiring an oil change.
Besides, given that almost all PAO base oils used in motor oil have a viscosity index around 140, I am inclined to think that the high-viscosity-index (VI > 200) oils such as Toyota 0W-20, ENEOS 0W-20, etc. contain a lot of viscosity-index improvers, polymer additives that most people don't like, as they shear and permanently lower the viscosity and also lead to deposits and sludge.
There is some truth to what you're saying, but I think you're also making some over-generalizations. Many oils are blends of multiple base oils. M1 for example, could be IV/V or III+/IV/V. Mobil 1, per XOM, contains up to 18 different base oils and additives.
The quality of the viscosity modifiers and additives also make a difference.
From the Infineum papers I've read, viscosity modifiers are still poorly understood. I found that surprising.
So far, the Toyota 0w20 has shown to be very shear stable.
The quality of the viscosity modifiers and additives also make a difference.
From the Infineum papers I've read, viscosity modifiers are still poorly understood. I found that surprising.
So far, the Toyota 0w20 has shown to be very shear stable.
There is a possibility that Toyota 0W-20 and Eneos 0W-20, which both have VI > 200, are Group III oils. PAO base oils seem to have VI ~ 130 - 140, and Group III base oils are also around that range, but some newer Group III base oils seem to have higher VI. The presentation video above is describing a new base oil called W-base, which seems to be highly processed Group III. W may stand for wax.
I should also admit that NOACK volatility only correlates with base-oil oxidation and there is no absolute correspondence between the two. Nevertheless, PAO base oils excel at NOACK, oxidation, and friction.
There are fifteen presentations at the Articles link on the YUBASE® Web site, some very recent. All great reads describing base oils, with emphasis on Group III.
If you think SAE 0W-20 is thin, look at the recent articles there -- they are now planning on SAE 0W-5, which has an HTHS viscosity of only 1.7 cP.
I should also admit that NOACK volatility only correlates with base-oil oxidation and there is no absolute correspondence between the two. Nevertheless, PAO base oils excel at NOACK, oxidation, and friction.
There are fifteen presentations at the Articles link on the YUBASE® Web site, some very recent. All great reads describing base oils, with emphasis on Group III.
If you think SAE 0W-20 is thin, look at the recent articles there -- they are now planning on SAE 0W-5, which has an HTHS viscosity of only 1.7 cP.
Agree.
Oils are really complex. Even the full PAO based Amsoil used to have some oxidation issues. It may not have been an issue, but it was a characteristic of that brand of oil. So there is a lot to consider.
There are also many different types of esters and Group IV base oils.
Oils are really complex. Even the full PAO based Amsoil used to have some oxidation issues. It may not have been an issue, but it was a characteristic of that brand of oil. So there is a lot to consider.
There are also many different types of esters and Group IV base oils.
I wonder how much a role the higher starting TAN of older SSO would affect 'oxidation'?
- Status
Similar threads
