Grp III only "synthetic" in US, really?

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Originally Posted By: david_ES2
I just find the term misleading and confusing now for most uninformed people.


Perhaps, but there are so many other more important misleading things to worry about in this world.

To my mind the good GpIII base oils are so close to a PAO that is doesn't matter much.

The irritating part is the extra cost attached to the word "synthetic." I think GpIII base stocks might be overpriced given the costs to produce them vs a PAO. But because it's "Full Synthetic" they can add a spiff to the price. I'm not making a declaration to this effect because I don't have enough inside data to crunch numbers, but it seems so and just the possibility irritates me.
 
I think that peoplE need to realize that in chemistry, there can be multiple pathways to an identical chemical compound. One may be cheaper to produce. If grpIII+ offers substantially the same performance at a lower price point, which allows us to keep getting 5 qts at Walmart for $26, then for most that works. And if the practical performance characteristics of a fully formulated oil are effectively the same, the. It brings better. Slur for all but the most niche applications.

The key IMO is to have a balanced formulation, not just focus on one specific compound type. If the ompanies are blending to meet a Walmart price point, the. We may have other issues, but I've not seen an indication of this (though it could be part of the reason to drive to group iIi), and would generally blame the cost of oil being $100/bbl.
 
Well I can tell the difference when I use the group III so called Synthetic oil`s.
wink.gif
 
From my long experience using M1 oils, the M1 oil of today is a better lubricant now than what I used decades ago. In the 70s when I started using M1 5-20 I guess it was so called PAO, but today M1 oils,as M1 claims,is a blend of up 15 differant base stocks which are actually better than PAO alone. The lines are blured between grp 3-4-5 base stocks as oils improve over the years.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
The irritating part is the extra cost attached to the word "synthetic." I think GpIII base stocks might be overpriced given the costs to produce them vs a PAO. But because it's "Full Synthetic" they can add a spiff to the price. I'm not making a declaration to this effect because I don't have enough inside data to crunch numbers, but it seems so and just the possibility irritates me.


There is definitely a premium for the word synthetic. Group III base oils cost only 25 to 40 cents/quart more than Group II base oils, while the finished oil carries a much higher price. Of course synthetics often also have a more robust additive system which adds a little more to the cost.

Synthetics appeal to people who want the best, and are willing to pay more for it. Marketers know this and dip their beaks into the larger pie. Just business.

Tom NJ
 
I remember when I used Syntec Blend years ago,it was $1.99 a quart (now it`s almost $7.00). Since Syntec is a grp III oil,would Syntec Blend just be a "double dino" per se,or do they put a small amount of esters and/or pao in it?
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember when I used Syntec Blend years ago,it was $1.99 a quart (now it`s almost $7.00). Since Syntec is a grp III oil,would Syntec Blend just be a "double dino" per se,or do they put a small amount of esters and/or pao in it?

Syntec Blend is a mix of group III and group II, mainly group II probably though.
 
Peak has a Synthetic and Pennsoil has one too. It is up to you to chose, not because they are Synthetic, but because one fits your engine better or you guess it does, and how you drive. Somes Synthetics have weak add packs some dino have better add packs than Synthetics, this is where your choice gets interesting. Some can do 10k others cannot, due to severe driving another item to consider. The name whatever, means little, more your judgementIMHO.
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
The irritating part is the extra cost attached to the word "synthetic." I think GpIII base stocks might be overpriced given the costs to produce them vs a PAO. But because it's "Full Synthetic" they can add a spiff to the price. I'm not making a declaration to this effect because I don't have enough inside data to crunch numbers, but it seems so and just the possibility irritates me.


There is definitely a premium for the word synthetic. Group III base oils cost only 25 to 40 cents/quart more than Group II base oils, while the finished oil carries a much higher price. Of course synthetics often also have a more robust additive system which adds a little more to the cost.

Synthetics appeal to people who want the best, and are willing to pay more for it. Marketers know this and dip their beaks into the larger pie. Just business.

Tom NJ


Tom,

Is there a spot market that can be seen by the casual observer for costs of basestocks (generally, obviously there is a lot to it)?

Given your comment on the price delta between II and III, it would be interesting to be able to observe the pricing between II, II+, III, III+, IV and some common POE grp V.
 
The term "Synthetic" really has two uses in the oil world as far as I am concerned:

Marketing Term: Synthetic means Group III or higher base oils. Typically targeted at extended OCI and greater stability. As has been stated above GERMANY is the only country on record as requiring the term Synthetic to be Group IV or higher.

Chemistry Term: generally refers to Group IV/V - PAO/POE base stocks to differentiate from the Hydrotreating/cracking process (although base stock makers have to market their products to oil formulators too, so they play the word games - to a lesser extent than the consumer marketers do)

IMO JHZR2 is right in saying that the process of arriving to a chemical is less important when it does essentially the same thing. I have seen HT-32 from PetroCanada tested vs some PAO from ExxonMobil chemical and when it came down to it the only noticeable difference was pour point.
 
Originally Posted By: volk06
Originally Posted By: ahoier
Wow, missed the thread regarding this "ban" - is this why MaxLife no longer carries the "Synthetic Blend" label on the new redesigned labels...?


Noticed, Castrol GTX notates "PART SYNTHETIC" lol..sounds kinda "goofy" to me
wink.gif
But, eh.....


I always got a kick of the "Synthetic Blend" fiends who would storm Walmart awwww they don't got any synthetic blend...


Well [censored], the only thing left with the label "Synthetic Blend" is MotorCraft - which they carry in 15W-40, 5W-20, and 10W-30...



People paying more just for the "blend" label on the bottle, and a 2% of "synthetic" to meet the "blend" regulations
smile.gif



Valvoline took the blend off the label for marketing reasons only. it was 20-30% syn. The latest msds for Motorcraft reveals its 60% synthetic.

Mobil super HM is a blend as well.



Sorry...this one here just stopped me. Since when did motorcraft become 60% synthetic? From SM to SN? I know it used to be only 20-25% or so. This could explain why the oil choice has not changed for these car, even the ones that are DI...
 
The fact that API or ILSAC do not offer an "official" technical definition of "synthetic" is a good indication that there is no agreement among industry professionals as to what it means.

"Synthetic" is best regarded as a marketing term, not a technical term.
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
The irritating part is the extra cost attached to the word "synthetic." I think GpIII base stocks might be overpriced given the costs to produce them vs a PAO. But because it's "Full Synthetic" they can add a spiff to the price. I'm not making a declaration to this effect because I don't have enough inside data to crunch numbers, but it seems so and just the possibility irritates me.


There is definitely a premium for the word synthetic. Group III base oils cost only 25 to 40 cents/quart more than Group II base oils, while the finished oil carries a much higher price. Of course synthetics often also have a more robust additive system which adds a little more to the cost.

Synthetics appeal to people who want the best, and are willing to pay more for it. Marketers know this and dip their beaks into the larger pie. Just business.

Tom NJ

I agree.

Same thing with premium gasoline, cost to produce 91/93 octane is less than 10 cents a gallon over 87, but it's usually 20 cents or more higher at the pump.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Tom,

Is there a spot market that can be seen by the casual observer for costs of basestocks (generally, obviously there is a lot to it)?

Given your comment on the price delta between II and III, it would be interesting to be able to observe the pricing between II, II+, III, III+, IV and some common POE grp V.


Lube Report is a weekly newsletter published by Lubes-N-Greases magazine that lists the current base oil prices for Groups I, II, II+, and III. Unfortunately it does not list Groups IV or V. If you find anyone who does, please let me know.

Lube Report

Tom NJ
 
Quote:
The real question is: do you want to pay what people in Germany pay for oil?


The German tax on earth oil vs synthetics is different so the actual cost difference may not be as wide a difference pre tax.
 
I don't know that it really matters.
I do think that it would be nice if marketers were more forthcoming as to what basestocks were actually used in their products.
SOPUS has been completely transparent in this respect, having stated that Plat, Ultra and T6 all use Grp III basestocks.
If M1 really did use a purely Grp IV basestock, I would think that XOM would make this clear to all, since many consider this the superior basestock.
XOM has made no such declaration.
I doubt that XOM blends special oils for the relatively small German market alone.
Also, any PAO must have at least some mineral oil content, in order to carry the additive package.
This is probably a large enough loophole to cover a significant Grp III content, without regard to German labeling regulations.
 
If an oils OCI can last 7,500 to 9,000 miles I don't care what the base oil is. It's the total package performance that counts for me.

Whimsey
 
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
If an oils OCI can last 7,500 to 9,000 miles I don't care what the base oil is. It's the total package performance that counts for me.

Whimsey


Good point....
 
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