Redline 5W30, 5300 miles, BMW X5 4.4 V8
- Thread starter chefwong
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Well-just another ho-hum report by Redline. But in all honesty the vehicle is not broken in-and you probably flog it
. Your insolubles are high which in part accounts for the viscosity being almost a 40 wt.
I'm sure Mobil 1, GC, or Amsoil would have done just as well.
I'm sure Mobil 1, GC, or Amsoil would have done just as well.
The TBN seems low! Doesn't Blackstone say the TBN should be >1.0?
How many quarts of oil does your X5 take? Also, how many months was the oil in use?
How many quarts of oil does your X5 take? Also, how many months was the oil in use?
How many total miles?
Wow . Will this engine gain a reputation for beating down motor oils ?
I mean Redline don't hold it's TBN all that well IMO but thats alot of oil and somewhat short miles .
Can I assume this engine has over 15k miles on it ?
Unless I'm reading the report wrong, miles on unit at testing was 12,300.
Does the 5.3k miles include a lot of NYC traffic?
What is the oem suggested OCI?
Maybe for such as short interval, GC or Mobil1 would be of better value.
Does the 5.3k miles include a lot of NYC traffic?
What is the oem suggested OCI?
Maybe for such as short interval, GC or Mobil1 would be of better value.
OEM suggested OCI is 15,000 miles.
Yes, the mileage on the car is at 12,300 miles right now. I travel to the city about 2X a week with the car and it sees a bit of *city* driving. However alot of stop and go at times on my route out as I live in Brooklyn and always tends to get jammed up for a short bit when on the I278 on the approach to the Gowanus Expressway.
I think the problem lies more with how I had sampled the oil rather than the OIL itself. See post I had made about a week ago - UOA Sampling Procedure
Basically, I had drained the oil into my oil drain pan and then poured the oil from the drain pan into the UOA sampling container. Granted, I do empty the drain pan each time....there is always a bit of old oil that coats the interior of my 17 quart oil drain pan. It's a closed container setup with a air vent & pour & drain spout.
Yes, the mileage on the car is at 12,300 miles right now. I travel to the city about 2X a week with the car and it sees a bit of *city* driving. However alot of stop and go at times on my route out as I live in Brooklyn and always tends to get jammed up for a short bit when on the I278 on the approach to the Gowanus Expressway.
I think the problem lies more with how I had sampled the oil rather than the OIL itself. See post I had made about a week ago - UOA Sampling Procedure
Basically, I had drained the oil into my oil drain pan and then poured the oil from the drain pan into the UOA sampling container. Granted, I do empty the drain pan each time....there is always a bit of old oil that coats the interior of my 17 quart oil drain pan. It's a closed container setup with a air vent & pour & drain spout.
That RL ain't looking to good only after 5K miles. TBN of .9 and lead coming in at almost 2 ppm per thousand. We've seen cheaper dino's do better than this. I'm really surprized about this. I had seen lately a downward trend in the RL analysis in this section. They don't seem to hold up well for extended drains. And this stuff is about 8 bucks a quart???? I'd stick with M1.
Most of the wear particle increases and the oil degredation was done in the sample bottle after the contamination, not in the engine.
The fact that the flash remains at 420F with a TBN of 0.9 should alert the interpreter that something is askew.
RL is amazingly resistant to even horrendous oxidation from the sampling technique used here.
I suspect that most of the "poor" redline results we have seen are from that and not the chemistry.
Be careful drawing blanket conclusions about any brand/chemistry of a oil without knowing the full story on a interval.
The fact that the flash remains at 420F with a TBN of 0.9 should alert the interpreter that something is askew.
RL is amazingly resistant to even horrendous oxidation from the sampling technique used here.
I suspect that most of the "poor" redline results we have seen are from that and not the chemistry.
Be careful drawing blanket conclusions about any brand/chemistry of a oil without knowing the full story on a interval.
Patman
Staff member
And that my friends is the perfect reason why Terry is worth every penny of his interpretation fee!
I can't see how any conclusions could be drawn at all from the UOA based on this statement.
Must have posted that while I was typing. In any event, what a way to spend 30 bucks. The sample is contaminated and doesn't mean anything. Is not a representative sample. If this was a court case, an environmental lawyer would eat your lunch. Terry, I hear you, but I'm just not convinced RL is "all that." Even Amsoil blows these guys away. It's just a high dollar boutique oil until I see otherwise.
MolaKule
Staff member
When sampling, always drop the plug and then place the bottle in the stream unless you have a Fumoto valve.
You contaminated the sample by pouring from the drain pain which had all kinds of crud in it.
You contaminated the sample by pouring from the drain pain which had all kinds of crud in it.
"Are you suggesting that Redline users are much more prone to poor sampling technique than are users of other motor oils?" NO.
John I need to clarify that for you a bit and sometimes I am not the best at english translations of my theories and observations !
The limited # of Redline samples posted on BITOG show results that many suggest are "poor" or less than desireable.
I am saying from looking at many RL oil analysis results that most may look poor because of bad sampling technique, mechanical problems, chemistry issues from oil and fuel adds, dust and environemental leakage etc. Most here have taken a look and said it must be the oil without knowing the rest of the story.
The Basic chemistry of Redline is superior in many ways to most other OTS motor oils in resistance to all those things and in normal operation of an automotive engine.
No, Redline pays me nothing, its just true that a well added POE will kick other oils butts in performance.
As a matter of note I am discouraged that their own chemist and tech people discount UOA as a good indicator of their chemistries performance. I think ignorance of the interpretation phase of analysis is their problem not the oil or testing technique.
Curtis, COC flash technique is the one used by BK Labs and is repeatable and consistant with our statistical data base on this oil used and new.
Even with the contamination if interpreted properly you can tell reams about the history and use of the unit and its lube, its forensics man!
Terry
[ May 06, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
John I need to clarify that for you a bit and sometimes I am not the best at english translations of my theories and observations !
The limited # of Redline samples posted on BITOG show results that many suggest are "poor" or less than desireable.
I am saying from looking at many RL oil analysis results that most may look poor because of bad sampling technique, mechanical problems, chemistry issues from oil and fuel adds, dust and environemental leakage etc. Most here have taken a look and said it must be the oil without knowing the rest of the story.
The Basic chemistry of Redline is superior in many ways to most other OTS motor oils in resistance to all those things and in normal operation of an automotive engine.
No, Redline pays me nothing, its just true that a well added POE will kick other oils butts in performance.
As a matter of note I am discouraged that their own chemist and tech people discount UOA as a good indicator of their chemistries performance. I think ignorance of the interpretation phase of analysis is their problem not the oil or testing technique.
Curtis, COC flash technique is the one used by BK Labs and is repeatable and consistant with our statistical data base on this oil used and new.
Even with the contamination if interpreted properly you can tell reams about the history and use of the unit and its lube, its forensics man!
Terry
[ May 06, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
This is a new engine with excellent ring seal and an 8.5 quart sump. Under those conditions, you're not going to see a sample of Redline with only 5000 miles on it thicken up like this and have 0.5% total solids. The stuff is very resistant to oxidation and nitration. Basically the hot Redline oil did an excellent job of cleaning out oxidized oil residue and incapsulated wear metals from the oil drain pan.
I agree 100% with Terry, even if he does hail from Texas and english is his second language.
I actually have no problem understanding him, which does worry me a bit ...
I agree 100% with Terry, even if he does hail from Texas and english is his second language.
Terry you know a lot more about this then I do, but I don't know how true these things are. I trust and value your theories on RL's abilities and have no doubts the oil excells under gruelling conditions, but based on the 50 or so UOAs we have of RL, it's been far from spectacular. Even it's shear stability hasn't been as claimed. Is their any chance you could post a few UOAs that show RL's greatness?
Another question I've always wondered was if Redline's chemistry was so superior, why then are other makers using mostly PAO? Cost is not the issue IMO. Look at S2k at $8.35qt. Also, almost every other oil maker doesn't agree with Redline's approach to formulation.
Regarding the small samples of RL, the % of "poor" UOAs to total # of UOAs with RL is much higher then the other brands. Mobil, Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Synergyn all favor the PAO + V route, not an oil soley built with a POE basestock and 500ppm of Moly.
I've had Roy Howell try and explain the elevated lead, but couldn't. I've had Darren Wallace tell me they see Redline in their labs quite frequetly and they never were impressed with it. He said it's hydroscopic and has other issues. (Didn's specify). Then I've Dave from Redline say UOAs are not a tool to measure an oils performance. Really? Then what is?
Even Mobil's High End oils used in F1/NASCAR are PAO based. So either Redline is superior to other oils, and all the others are not in the same league, or RL is just not a good chemistry. RL is just becomming a big pain in the @ss IMO.
Does RL's TBN ever hold or is Blackstone Labs really using 1940's equipment? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but RL has been far from stellar.
[ May 06, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Redline TBN holds just fine.
I routinely test TBN using Dexsil kits and Redline is not a poor performer in TBN retention.
I've seen values as high as 11 after 5k miles when the oil had been put though it's paces.
The worst value I've seen is 5.5 after 9,100 miles. Maybe that's not great but it was 7.0 at 6,500 miles so it is holding pretty good.
People who have never used an oil but pass judgement on it ought to ...
I routinely test TBN using Dexsil kits and Redline is not a poor performer in TBN retention.
I've seen values as high as 11 after 5k miles when the oil had been put though it's paces.
The worst value I've seen is 5.5 after 9,100 miles. Maybe that's not great but it was 7.0 at 6,500 miles so it is holding pretty good.
People who have never used an oil but pass judgement on it ought to ...
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