Porsche 996 Carrera 3.6 l. Valvoline VR1 5W50

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
juankimalo - To help

UOA = "Used Oil Analysis" - exactly what you have supplied to us in here

Trend = the results of a number of UOAs over time and distance to establish the rate of wear metal uptake (rate of increase - if any) and the deterioration rate of the lubricant and so other things

The PQ Index is an important part of accurate trending

So yes, trending is a sort of a moving baseline for your engine

 

[juankimalo]

Thanks Doug!

I do really appreciate your advices, and your time to explain me the meaning of the report.


Nice to see you liked Spain. Galicia is a very beauty area (excellent food)

 

[juankimalo]

I've reading as much as possible in this forum and I have another question:

Looking at several 5W50 UOAs I noticed that viscosity lowers to SAE 40 normally as a result of the unstable high range viscosity.

That means if you go for a 5W50 in a Porsche 911 Carrera and the recommended viscosity is closer to SAE 40 (but SAE 40 showed in UOA is lowering too), would it be proper keep on using this oil?

(I purchased Valvoline VR1 5W50 again a few days ago an did the oil change)
For next OCI I'll analize it before drain


Another thing I'm going to use this engine clean:

If my engine has a RTV sealant, I'll try to clean it up as much as possible before the next OCI

 

[juankimalo]

Originally Posted By: Steiner
Just a note on the VR-1 "Racing" Oil.....

It's not a true racing oil in the traditional sense. It has a regular detergent and additive package for normal street use and oil change interval. They throw the "Racing" label on it because it does not meet the phosphorus limits for an SM/SN rated oil as it is supposed to be higher in ZDDP than currently mandated levels; kinda like how all the aftermarket exhaust manufacturers throw the label "off highway use only" on their products since they don't meet noise guidelines. However, I can imagine some people that are running that oil with performance flat tappet cams taking a look at the zinc number and getting upset....

Since this oil sample comes from Spain I can't say whether the same guidelines for manufacture or rating applies to it as in the US though.


here you can see the PDF:

http://www.valvolineashland.es/PDFS/VR1 spanish.pdf

 

[unDummy]

You do not need to clean or flush your engine. Just shorten your interval.

 

[juankimalo]

Originally Posted By: unDummy
You do not need to clean or flush your engine. Just shorten your interval.




I'm a newbie and I thought that a product to clean the engine such Motul, could solve something about the RTV sealant residues

 

[unDummy]

If you maintained your engine, it would not be dirty.

RTV will rinse out on its own with normal maintenance.

Shorten your oil change interval. Keep it at 6-month intervals to remove all that builds up.

 

[SIXSPEED]

Originally Posted By: juankimalo
I've reading as much as possible in this forum and I have another question:

Looking at several 5W50 UOAs I noticed that viscosity lowers to SAE 40 normally as a result of the unstable high range viscosity.

That means if you go for a 5W50 in a Porsche 911 Carrera and the recommended viscosity is closer to SAE 40 (but SAE 40 showed in UOA is lowering too), would it be proper keep on using this oil?

I agree with you, every 5W50 UOA I have seen shows the oil shearing to a 40 grade. Your used oil was at 15.3 cSt after 6700 km (4163 miles). The Motorcraft 5W50 oil that I last drained from my GT500 was at 15.01 cSt after only 2187 km (1359 miles). I have also seen a UOA of a high quality 20W50 that shears to a thick 40 grade (16.11 cSt) after 2000 miles.

I'm currently using Red Line 5W50, but I'm considering switching to their 5W40 or 10W40 to lower the HTHS viscosity, which is typically higher (5.9 cP for 5W50) than most other oils in the same SAE grade.

 

[SIXSPEED]

Originally Posted By: Steiner
They throw the "Racing" label on it because it does not meet the phosphorus limits for an SM/SN rated oil as it is supposed to be higher in ZDDP than currently mandated levels;

Note that the 800 ppm Phosphorous limit placed on API SM/SN oils do not apply to the XW40 and XW50 grade oils; it only applies to the XW20 and XW30 grades. However, all SAE grades must meet the minimum 600 ppm Phosphorous requirement.

 

[juankimalo]

I agree with you
Redline specs are fantastic!
Perhaps too high for M96 Porsche engines.

I'm considering to go for Redline 5W40 for next OCI


Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
Originally Posted By: juankimalo
I've reading as much as possible in this forum and I have another question:

Looking at several 5W50 UOAs I noticed that viscosity lowers to SAE 40 normally as a result of the unstable high range viscosity.

That means if you go for a 5W50 in a Porsche 911 Carrera and the recommended viscosity is closer to SAE 40 (but SAE 40 showed in UOA is lowering too), would it be proper keep on using this oil?

I agree with you, every 5W50 UOA I have seen shows the oil shearing to a 40 grade. Your used oil was at 15.3 cSt after 6700 km (4163 miles). The Motorcraft 5W50 oil that I last drained from my GT500 was at 15.01 cSt after only 2187 km (1359 miles). I have also seen a UOA of a high quality 20W50 that shears to a thick 40 grade (16.11 cSt) after 2000 miles.

I'm currently using Red Line 5W50, but I'm considering switching to their 5W40 or 10W40 to lower the HTHS viscosity, which is typically higher (5.9 cP for 5W50) than most other oils in the same SAE grade.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Hi,
juankimalo - You have a great Porsche Forum in Spain!

IMO for the M96 engine in particular you are best to use a Porsche Approved lubricant!
This especially applies to viscosity including low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities

If you chose not to then you should consider these things;

a) a minimum HTHS vis 3.5cP (perhaps inadvisable to go above 4cP)
b) a minimum viscosity @ 100C 11.3cSt (used lubricant)
c) the lubricant must have antifoaming abilities similar or better than Approved lubricants (multilple oil pumps)
d) during extended viscosity testing (Porsche - ACEA test protocol) it must show that the lubricant meets/exceeds Porsche requirements

The other matters (cleanliness and etc) are noted by Porsche

Redline is probably not worth the money in this (M96) application - Porsche Approved lubricants do the job very well indeed

 

[juankimalo]

Originally Posted By: unDummy
If you maintained your engine, it would not be dirty.

RTV will rinse out on its own with normal maintenance.

Shorten your oil change interval. Keep it at 6-month intervals to remove all that builds up.




Jake Raby (flat6 innovations) told me:
Please do not do this.. Doing so will dislodge all the deposits within your engine and they will be collected in the valvetrain. Lifters and tensioners suffer horribly from this as they are at the end of the oiling system. Do some searches on this topic for more info.

The best way to flush these engines is to do a couple of very low mileage interval oil changes.

 

[juankimalo]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Hi,
juankimalo - You have a great Porsche Forum in Spain!

IMO for the M96 engine in particular you are best to use a Porsche Approved lubricant!
This especially applies to viscosity including low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities

If you chose not to then you should consider these things;

a) a minimum HTHS vis 3.5cP (perhaps inadvisable to go above 4cP)
b) a minimum viscosity @ 100C 11.3cSt (used lubricant)
c) the lubricant must have antifoaming abilities similar or better than Approved lubricants (multilple oil pumps)
d) during extended viscosity testing (Porsche - ACEA test protocol) it must show that the lubricant meets/exceeds Porsche requirements

The other matters (cleanliness and etc) are noted by Porsche

Redline is probably not worth the money in this (M96) application - Porsche Approved lubricants do the job very well indeed



I received yesterday Redline 5W40 price list. It's an imported oil, so It's too expensive, though in this SAE grade, they recommend it for Porsche.

What I don't understand is why Porsche included M1 5W50 in the approved list. It's the only 5W50 viscosity grade approved as you well know.
Valvoline VR1 5W50 (european formulated) is very similar in specs to M1. That's why I used it.

Nevertheless, I'm going to use it again for a very short interval. I sent a virgin oil sample to the laboratory to be analize, and compare to the UOA.
18,0 viscosity @ 100º C must be the real viscosity as Valvoline says... let's check it...


My private Porsche specialist is a very well known and prestigius mechanic in Spain. He always uses Valvoline Synpower 5W40 (approved list). Other choices would be Motul X-Cess 5W40. (I'm not going for using Mobil 1 0W40 as it's not proper for hot climates). What do you think about them?.

Thanks in advance Doug. I'll show you the virgin oil analysis report, as soon as I'd receive it, and thanks again for your comments about Soloporsche. We have a lot of users trying to solve the IMS problem. One of them developed INSARO (www.insaroims.com), and there is a group called "The Ring Community" developing a new IMS bearing solution to give it as free to everybody:


(Is the language is a problem , just look at the pictures)

http://soloporsche.com/showthread.php?t=44411



Regards from Spain.

 

[defektes]

Originally Posted By: juankimalo
Originally Posted By: unDummy
You do not need to clean or flush your engine. Just shorten your interval.




I'm a newbie and I thought that a product to clean the engine such Motul, could solve something about the RTV sealant residues


The rtv residue will go away on its own. I'd not flush the engine imo.

 

[juankimalo]

Originally Posted By: defektes
Originally Posted By: juankimalo
Originally Posted By: unDummy
You do not need to clean or flush your engine. Just shorten your interval.




I'm a newbie and I thought that a product to clean the engine such Motul, could solve something about the RTV sealant residues


The rtv residue will go away on its own. I'd not flush the engine imo.


Thank you everybody for the advices.
I'll do 2 oil change in a short period of time, including new samples to analyze.

 

[Steiner]

What service has been done to the engine? If nothing recently it doesn't seem like there would be much RTV residue after seven years and 28,000 miles.

 

[juankimalo]

Originally Posted By: Steiner
What service has been done to the engine? If nothing recently it doesn't seem like there would be much RTV residue after seven years and 28,000 miles.


The car is seven years old (january 04)

kms sample time: 44.367 = 27.568 miles
kms from last oil change 6.717 = 4.173 miles (11 months)

I do one oil change per year (including air filter, polen filter, oil filter)

 

[Steiner]

Originally Posted By: juankimalo
Originally Posted By: Steiner
What service has been done to the engine? If nothing recently it doesn't seem like there would be much RTV residue after seven years and 28,000 miles.


The car is seven years old (january 04)

kms sample time: 44.367 = 27.568 miles
kms from last oil change 6.717 = 4.173 miles (11 months)

I do one oil change per year (including air filter, polen filter, oil filter)


That is the question I am asking.....

You have accepted that the silicon in the sample is from RTV. I am asking what service has been done to the car in the last few changes that used RTV sealant?

If the answer is "none" and you have simply done the service you describe above once a year for the last seven years than I would not be so quick to write the silicon off as RTV.

Your silicon content is higher than the hand assembled engine I just had tested with less than 3000 miles on it.

 

[juankimalo]

The engine has never been dissambled.
I'll show the historic maintenance from factory to current days

• OEM Factory oil = Mobil 1 0W40 (11 months in the Official Porsche Shop, Frankfurt - Germany,January 2004 to November 2004). 18 miles (car new)
• 1st owner = A spaniard purchased the car new (18 miles) and brought to Madrid - Spain (November 2004). From Nov 04 to Dec 05, made 2.900 miles. NO Oil change, no inspections made.
• 2nd owner = (From Dec 05 to May 07 did 3.700 miles = total 6.600 miles in the car)
  - 1st OIL CHANGE MOTUL 8100 X-CESS 5W40 February 06 - 3.800 miles. (No analysis made)
  - 2nd OIL CHANGE MOTuL 8100 X-CESS 5W40 January 07 - 5.300 miles. (No analysis made)
• 3rd owner = Me (from May 07 to now). Purchased at 6.600 miles on dashboard.
  - 4th OIL CHANGE MOBIL 1 5W50 Dec 07 - 12.300 miles (No analysis made)
  - 5th OIL CHANGE MOBIL 1 5W50 Jan 09 - 17.740 miles (No analysis made)
  - 6th OIL CHANGE VALVOLINE VR1 5W50 March 10 - 23.400 miles (analysis report showed in this thread)
  - 7th OIL CHANGE VALVOLINE VR1 5W50 March 11 - 27.800 miles (I'll take a sample at 1.200 miles to send to analyze)

Every Oil change was completed with oil filter, air filter, polen filter, etc.
Brake fluid 2 years service
Coolant (5,94 gallons) 2 years service

The only extra operation made was changing the OEM intermediate shaft bearing for an hybrid steel/ceramic one.
There's no need to dismantle the engine to do this.
The external IMS end seal was settled with a bit of Lithium grease. There's NO Lithium in the report.


http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/99...e-finished.html

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/7395622-post37.html

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/7395622-post37.html




I must say that I know the former owners, the mileage is correct, and everything was fine. Completely documented.

 

[Steiner]

Alright, then if there is no history of a component being replaced where RTV was used than why are you so eager to buy off on the silicon being from RTV?

It's like sitting in your house and smelling smoke. Then you call your neighbor and he says "I'm out of town but someone was burning leaves yesterday." So you say "Great, everything must be OK and that's a good explanation of why I smell smoke." Meanwhile your house is on fire.


My 3000 mile old engine was assembled with RTV on the intake gaskets, oil pan gaskets, timing cover, etc. The silicon report for it was 40ppm at 2700 miles and the second oil change. Yours is at 99 with no known RTV usage at 28,000 miles and seven oil changes.