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#1857955 - 04/14/10 09:33 PM 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil
jeremy34756 Offline


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 19
Loc: florida
I have a yamaha banshee, I was running klotz supertechniplate, But I got a free bottle of amsoil dominator and I mixed it at the same 32:1 ratio, It seems to have alittle more kick in HP using it, The base oils themselfs the amsoil seems thinner than the klotz, The klotz is said to be good at protection since it conatins 20% castor bean oil 80% synthetic, AMSOIL is of course 100% Synthetic, Its also $2 cheaper a qt for amsoil. Make the change? Does it run cleaner and protect just as good as the klotz? Anyone have any input about the dominator oil? I will not run anything leaner than 32:1, Just will not do it even though they suggest 50:1. My interest is the cleaner burning so I don't get unburnt oil driping out where the pipes attach to the engine block and perhaps even better protection than what I already had.


Edited by jeremy34756 (04/14/10 09:35 PM)

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#1857963 - 04/14/10 09:37 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: jeremy34756]
DieselTech Offline


Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 1969
Loc: AZ
Super techni with the beanol is a [censored] good product. The straight benol is a killer product I run it in my 88 250R. I do feel it's better then dominator and you can't beat the smell :)

Simply said Klotz can be mixed with alky or nitro and Amsoil cannot. i have had lengthy talks with amsoil about it and they just wont formulate for it.

Dominator will be cleaner burning since is doesnt have benol in it, but I'm willing to bet you notice a power drop also. Benol is a supurb protectant. 32:1 will yield drops out of the exhaist no matter what. Likely the packing is already saturated anyway


Edited by DieselTech (04/14/10 09:41 PM)
_________________________
03 Ford F250 7.3 (Lots of Mods). Redline & baldwin 7039
07 Ford F150 fill. Penz Ultra 5-20 & Bosch 3410
99 ford F150 4.6 fill. Redline 5-30 & P1

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#1857993 - 04/14/10 09:58 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: DieselTech]
SubyRoo Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 198
Loc: Maryville, TN
I always ran Klotz in my suzuki quadracers and when it came top end time they were always nice and clean inside. You gotta love the smell of the klotz my friends always wanted to ride behind me.
_________________________
2008 Dodge Ram 1500
M1 5w20 HM, MC 820s

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#1858017 - 04/14/10 10:18 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: jeremy34756]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46713
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Don't let these guys talk you out of Dominator. It's a great oil.

Suggestion: A better oil than anything listed here (plus still get all the negative effects of castor) - You can buy pure castor oil and put some in your Dominator/fuel premix like I do to get the nice smell.

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#1858028 - 04/14/10 10:28 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: Pablo]
Slippery_Pete Offline


Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 244
Loc: Minden Ontario
I would see no problem running Dominator. Just please, stay away from Interceptor. The klotz is likely a better oil but overkill IMO
_________________________
2003 Buick Regal GS
Current Fill:
Red Line 5W-30
Napa Gold
Always Shell 91 and now TCW-3

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#1858040 - 04/14/10 10:50 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: Slippery_Pete]
jeremy34756 Offline


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 19
Loc: florida
Yeah I here alot of people don't like the interceptor since it has no dye, Hard to tell how good its mixed, The dominator mixed nice and red, Yeah the klotz has a smell that almost makes me want to drink it from the bottle, However klotz is $12 a QT where I can find it, AMSOIL I can get for $9, But alot of people swear by klotz. Where my main problem is, Is that at 32:1 I want a cleaner burn and still off the same level or better protection, 32:1 is what Banshee owners run at, Yamaha says 24:1 with yamalube and 20:1 with everything else which is insane.

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#1858068 - 04/14/10 11:20 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: jeremy34756]
DieselTech Offline


Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 1969
Loc: AZ
Theres no such thing as overkill with a Banshee
_________________________
03 Ford F250 7.3 (Lots of Mods). Redline & baldwin 7039
07 Ford F150 fill. Penz Ultra 5-20 & Bosch 3410
99 ford F150 4.6 fill. Redline 5-30 & P1

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#1858111 - 04/15/10 12:19 AM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: DieselTech]
Slippery_Pete Offline


Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 244
Loc: Minden Ontario
Yeah I don't know quads that well. I'm a born and raised snowmobiler. That's my two stroke experience. I said don't use the Interceptor because it is pure garbage. Amsoil's worst product by far. Just my .02
_________________________
2003 Buick Regal GS
Current Fill:
Red Line 5W-30
Napa Gold
Always Shell 91 and now TCW-3

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#1858297 - 04/15/10 08:36 AM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: Slippery_Pete]
ccdhowell Offline


Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 832
Loc: Shreveport, Louisiana
Without doubt, you'll get a cleaner burn with Dominator, and it is a superior product. As much as I love the Klotz smell, I'd say go with the Dominator, you'll see cleaner insides when you take it apart.
_________________________
Blue Lion Racing
XC Quad


Current lineup:
'13 Polaris Scrambler 850HO
'09 Kawasaki KFX450R
'09 Polaris Outlaw 450MXR

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#1859264 - 04/16/10 01:17 AM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: ccdhowell]
jeremy34756 Offline


Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 19
Loc: florida
Noted above. Dieseltech is right, There is nothing overkill for one of the badest quads ever made. I could of had a [censored], Opps sorry yamaha raptor 700 but was not interested at all. I will run 5 gallons of dominator through it probably every so often. I done some more research since this post and find some concern in alot of people and AMSOIL stating its for racing only where engines get torn down frequently and not recommended for long use in outboards. I definetley noticed a power increase with the dominator, I think the trade off will be every 5th 5gallon jug I use I will use one 5 gallon jug with dominator to clean things up abit. This should be a good routine.

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#1922307 - 06/13/10 10:02 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: jeremy34756]
MrMeeks Offline


Registered: 05/16/10
Posts: 338
Loc: Maryland,
Why is the interceptor a bad oil?

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#1939727 - 07/01/10 12:42 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: Slippery_Pete]
nutsbolts Offline


Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 80
Loc: princeton fl
Originally Posted By: Slippery_Pete
Yeah I don't know quads that well. I'm a born and raised snowmobiler. That's my two stroke experience. I said don't use the Interceptor because it is pure garbage. Amsoil's worst product by far. Just my .02


I have used interceptor past 10 years on every 2 cycle I have.
2004 KTM 125SX
1997 Kawasaki ZXI 1100cc jetski I usually run marine AMSOIL mixed at 100:1 but many pinches i used interceptor
Stihl Weed eater,chainsaw
Backpak blower
no failures all eguiptment except jetski mixed at 50:1

Javier


Edited by nutsbolts (07/01/10 12:43 PM)

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#1952921 - 07/14/10 12:45 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: nutsbolts]
beanoil Offline


Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1981
Loc: Midwest, Illinois
Given your two options listed, stick with the Klotz. But if you want an even better oil, get some A747 from Castrol. There is not a better oil for developing power. There are better oils at controlling wear. There are better oils at controlling deposits. There is not a better oil for making power, especially at higher concentrations (ie. 24:1).
_________________________
beanoil: Tough under heat, real dirty afterwards.

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#1962362 - 07/22/10 04:32 PM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: beanoil]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
been in radio control trucks for about a year. 2 cycle 3.3 traxxas engine. been mixing my own fuel for a long time. been using klotz benol castor oil. no trouble

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#1962809 - 07/23/10 12:42 AM Re: 2 stroke oil? Klotz vs amsoil [Re: beanoil]
BBDartCA Offline


Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 439
Loc: Washington State
Originally Posted By: beanoil
Given your two options listed, stick with the Klotz. But if you want an even better oil, get some A747 from Castrol.


Klotz Supertechniplate is very similar to A747 at about half the cost. Probably both are the best you can get, period. Good read here on castor and synthetics.

CASTOR OIL
By Bert Striegler.


Back in 1983 there was quite a controversy in magazines about the tests that were necessary to measure the "lubricity" of various oils that might be useful in engines. Castor oil was used as the benchmark, but it was obvious no one knew why this was so. They apparently got a lot of info on various industry tests of lubricants, but these were really designed for other purposes. This was my answer. I will remind you that I was a lubrication engineer and not a chemist, but I drew my chemical info from Bob Durr, the most experienced lubricant scientist in the labs at Conoco.

Bob worked with my group on many product development projects and I can tell you that he is one smart hombre! Small changes were made in the text, but surprisingly very little has really changed since this was originally written. Here goes with the answer:

"I thought I would answer your plea for more information on castor oil and its "film strength", which can be a very misleading term. I have never really seen a satisfactory way to measure the film strength of an oil like castor oil. We routinely use tests like the Falex test, the Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test, but these are primarily designed to measure the effect of chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These "EP" agents have no function in an IC engine, particularly the two-stroke model engine types.

You really have to go back to the basics of lubrication to get a better handle on what happens in a engine. For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work.

Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before.

Castor oil is not normally soluble in ordinary petroleum oils, but if you polymerize it for several hours at 300 degrees F (149 deg C), the polymerized oil becomes soluble. Hydrogenation achieves somewhat the same effect.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces.

It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F (229 deg C), but its fire point is about 840 degrees F (449 deg C)! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F (176-204 deg C)and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F (288 deg C), or slightly higher.

Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean.

Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.

Synthetics also have another interesting feature - they would like to return to the materials from which they were made, usually things like ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, or other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. We call this phenomena "unzippering" for obvious reasons.

So, you have a choice. Run the engine too lean and it gets too hot. The synthetic burns or simply vaporizes, but castor oil decomposes into a soft varnish and a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricity.

Good reason for a mix of the two lubricants! ( " 927 " is a mix as described here!)

In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds.

Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! "

Bert Striegler

Bert was the Sr. Research Eng'r. (ret.) at Conoco Oil Co.
_________________________
Former lube industry insider...

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