We have an 821C front end loader that we just had the ZF powershift rebuilt in and am looking to do the initial break-in 100 hour oil change soon. The manual calls for a 15w-40 engine oil and I was thinking of using a synthetic oil as it would probably hold up better, run cooler, all that good stuff. Do you think that would work all right with the clutch packs and everything in there?
Synthetic oil in ZF trans
- Thread starter sdan27
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Basically, the answer is yes and personally, I believe a synthetic is advantageous in this application. Whether it can reduce the temperature at the clutch plate in the engaging/disengaging process, is nothing I can promise. Generally, the transmission should run cooler and smoother.
Is this a semi automatic transmission of some kind?
If I remember correctly, the basestock does affect clutch plate friction, along with the friction modifiers of course. An optimal fluid would have well balanced frictional properties for the particular transmission. I would like to ask whether engine oil really is the very best choice here.
Can you find a ZF fluid spec. in your manual or on the identification plate?
Being a converter transmission, it might ask for an oil meeting ZF TE-ML-03, suffix A – H.
If you have a ZF model number, you can try to find it in the ZF oil list to see which suffix is recommended for your transmission.
ZF TE-ML 03 Converter transmissions for ...es, lift truck)
To me, it looks like UTF is preferred for most applications. Cat TO-4 type fluids can be found there too.
Does the UTF your are using in the shop happen to list a ZF spec.?
At the end, it is all up to you and if you want to use a synthetic engine oil, I would not see any reason to talk you away from it. ZF, on the other hand, does only recommend petroleum based engine oils in class 03A.
Is this a semi automatic transmission of some kind?
If I remember correctly, the basestock does affect clutch plate friction, along with the friction modifiers of course. An optimal fluid would have well balanced frictional properties for the particular transmission. I would like to ask whether engine oil really is the very best choice here.
Can you find a ZF fluid spec. in your manual or on the identification plate?
Being a converter transmission, it might ask for an oil meeting ZF TE-ML-03, suffix A – H.
If you have a ZF model number, you can try to find it in the ZF oil list to see which suffix is recommended for your transmission.
ZF TE-ML 03 Converter transmissions for ...es, lift truck)
To me, it looks like UTF is preferred for most applications. Cat TO-4 type fluids can be found there too.
Does the UTF your are using in the shop happen to list a ZF spec.?
At the end, it is all up to you and if you want to use a synthetic engine oil, I would not see any reason to talk you away from it. ZF, on the other hand, does only recommend petroleum based engine oils in class 03A.
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The transmission is a 4WG-210. It looks like it should take
03A-E and 03G and 03H. 15w-40 viscosity looks to be just about right. The manual does not list any specifications the oil has to meet, just says use Case 15w-40 engine oil. Have you ever used synthetics in an application like this?
03A-E and 03G and 03H. 15w-40 viscosity looks to be just about right. The manual does not list any specifications the oil has to meet, just says use Case 15w-40 engine oil. Have you ever used synthetics in an application like this?
No, I have virtually zero experience with converter transmissions, but we have a Case IH Maxxum 5120 and a Magnum 7220, both do not seem to dislike our Gr.III/IV blend UTF. It's 5 years ago we went away from Hy-Tran. Recently, I saw a Magnum in cab video on youtube, it was a blast from the past to hear how "whiny" the transmission or hydraulic system can be.
According to the ZF list, your transmission is not too demanding on the oil's frictional properties. Someone more experienced has to tell whether it makes sence to move away from engine oil. Generally, the number of synthetic oils in this list is limited. ZF does not seem to find synthetics advantagous in off-road applications, they endorse them for on-road applications though. Also, they offer a synthetic MTF and 2 different synthetic ATFs for heavy-duty trucks. If I recall correctly, both ATFs are in the SAE 30 range, I do not know why they cannot be listed under ZF TE-ML 03.
Let's hope this thread will get a little more attention.
According to the ZF list, your transmission is not too demanding on the oil's frictional properties. Someone more experienced has to tell whether it makes sence to move away from engine oil. Generally, the number of synthetic oils in this list is limited. ZF does not seem to find synthetics advantagous in off-road applications, they endorse them for on-road applications though. Also, they offer a synthetic MTF and 2 different synthetic ATFs for heavy-duty trucks. If I recall correctly, both ATFs are in the SAE 30 range, I do not know why they cannot be listed under ZF TE-ML 03.
Let's hope this thread will get a little more attention.
I wouldn't know how synthetic oil will affect these transmissions. But I'd be cautious about it and do some research. I know that with Allison automatic transmissions, the introduction of even a small amount of water will dissolve and deteriorate the friction material adhesive on the clutches. Now synthetic oil isn't water, but 'true' synthetic oils ARE said to be more polar (like water, in a sense) than conventional oils. Don't know how much this matters, but it's something to consider.
Also, this is only tangentially related- but I can tell you that these transmissions originally used Case Hytran Ultra, but at some point around 2000, Case changed the spec to 15W40. I don't recall them every saying why... but I do recall changing the oil in quite a few of them.
Also, this is only tangentially related- but I can tell you that these transmissions originally used Case Hytran Ultra, but at some point around 2000, Case changed the spec to 15W40. I don't recall them every saying why... but I do recall changing the oil in quite a few of them.
Originally Posted By: onion
I wouldn't know how synthetic oil will affect these transmissions. But I'd be cautious about it and do some research. I know that with Allison automatic transmissions, the introduction of even a small amount of water will dissolve and deteriorate the friction material adhesive on the clutches. Now synthetic oil isn't water, but 'true' synthetic oils ARE said to be more polar (like water, in a sense) than conventional oils. Don't know how much this matters, but it's something to consider.
Also, this is only tangentially related- but I can tell you that these transmissions originally used Case Hytran Ultra, but at some point around 2000, Case changed the spec to 15W40. I don't recall them every saying why... but I do recall changing the oil in quite a few of them.
Now that you mention this, Onion, I remember a "story" I read on another forum, true or not true. Somebody who filled his John Deere transmission with Case IH Hy-Tran, had all the clutches detroyed. It was said it was because Hy-Tran disperses/emulsifies water, while Hy-Gard and other UTF demulsify water. I do not recall any water percentage from the particular transmission.
Allison has TranSynd and TranSynd RD, so they do not seem to be against synthetics. Synthetic transmission fluids may be developed with water contamination in mind though.
Dan, all I can offer is to call ZF and ask for the very best lubricant choice for the WG-210. Also, I have to ask you, how many hrs. did you get out of your transmission before the rebuild? Would you not think a transmission specific fluid can help to get more life out of the unit?
I wouldn't know how synthetic oil will affect these transmissions. But I'd be cautious about it and do some research. I know that with Allison automatic transmissions, the introduction of even a small amount of water will dissolve and deteriorate the friction material adhesive on the clutches. Now synthetic oil isn't water, but 'true' synthetic oils ARE said to be more polar (like water, in a sense) than conventional oils. Don't know how much this matters, but it's something to consider.
Also, this is only tangentially related- but I can tell you that these transmissions originally used Case Hytran Ultra, but at some point around 2000, Case changed the spec to 15W40. I don't recall them every saying why... but I do recall changing the oil in quite a few of them.
Now that you mention this, Onion, I remember a "story" I read on another forum, true or not true. Somebody who filled his John Deere transmission with Case IH Hy-Tran, had all the clutches detroyed. It was said it was because Hy-Tran disperses/emulsifies water, while Hy-Gard and other UTF demulsify water. I do not recall any water percentage from the particular transmission.
Allison has TranSynd and TranSynd RD, so they do not seem to be against synthetics. Synthetic transmission fluids may be developed with water contamination in mind though.
Dan, all I can offer is to call ZF and ask for the very best lubricant choice for the WG-210. Also, I have to ask you, how many hrs. did you get out of your transmission before the rebuild? Would you not think a transmission specific fluid can help to get more life out of the unit?
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I would use exactly what the MFG recommends" rating wise" ,The equipment is too expensive to mess with.
The unit had just shy of 5000 hours when the transmission failed. It was due to an internal oil line that cracked. The pump would pick the oil up but the crack was after that so the oil would not get to the torque converter, valve body or clutches. I guess that is kind of a common failure in those transmissions from what I was told.
Originally Posted By: Extreme-Duty
Dan, all I can offer is to call ZF and ask for the very best lubricant choice for the WG-210.
We recently put a 621b into service on our farm. I called ZF for a recommendation on transmission fluid and had a great conversation with one of their guys. He wanted to know what the machine was used for, and under what conditions. He ended up recommending 10w30 engine oil for ours; which should work well in the cold weather. We used a synthetic blend 10w30, and it has been shifting great.
Dan, all I can offer is to call ZF and ask for the very best lubricant choice for the WG-210.
We recently put a 621b into service on our farm. I called ZF for a recommendation on transmission fluid and had a great conversation with one of their guys. He wanted to know what the machine was used for, and under what conditions. He ended up recommending 10w30 engine oil for ours; which should work well in the cold weather. We used a synthetic blend 10w30, and it has been shifting great.
Originally Posted By: sdan27
The unit had just shy of 5000 hours when the transmission failed. It was due to an internal oil line that cracked. The pump would pick the oil up but the crack was after that so the oil would not get to the torque converter, valve body or clutches. I guess that is kind of a common failure in those transmissions from what I was told.
Now I remember and the rebuild was pricy.
The unit had just shy of 5000 hours when the transmission failed. It was due to an internal oil line that cracked. The pump would pick the oil up but the crack was after that so the oil would not get to the torque converter, valve body or clutches. I guess that is kind of a common failure in those transmissions from what I was told.
Now I remember and the rebuild was pricy.
We have a 4WG-200 in our older 821 loader and that one we also use 10w-30 oil in. I looked around the Schaeffer's page and found this Simplex Supreme #315. It meets the ZF TE ML-03E specs for the ZF Powerfluid so I think that should work pretty well. That will work in both of our loaders as well. Thanks all for the help.
Originally Posted By: sdan27
We have a 4WG-200 in our older 821 loader and that one we also use 10w-30 oil in. I looked around the Schaeffer's page and found this Simplex Supreme #315. It meets the ZF TE ML-03E specs for the ZF Powerfluid so I think that should work pretty well. That will work in both of our loaders as well. Thanks all for the help.
Your lubricant choice is probably
I hope you did not feel like somebody was trying to steer you away from engine oil
Just curious: What THF are you using in the tractors?
We have a 4WG-200 in our older 821 loader and that one we also use 10w-30 oil in. I looked around the Schaeffer's page and found this Simplex Supreme #315. It meets the ZF TE ML-03E specs for the ZF Powerfluid so I think that should work pretty well. That will work in both of our loaders as well. Thanks all for the help.
Your lubricant choice is probably
Just curious: What THF are you using in the tractors?
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No, I didn' feel like that at all. I just found that was the only synthethic product that met the ZF ratings. Most engine oils would probably work but don't have a specific rating for a transmission. We use Service Pro hydraulic fluid in most everything we have. It is speced for most everything we have.
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