Engine size, rpms, and engine longevity
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Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Vibration causes metal fatigue and premature wear. Balance and smoothness will reduce vibration.
The various internal parts inside an engine fight each other anyway, irrespective of whether the sum of that vibration experienced by the rider appears to be "smooth." It's simply ridiculous to connect this to engine wear otherwise no one would make a single cylinder engine! Performance engines are carefully balanced to minimize crank loading because that loading is closer to the failure point.
OK, I'll agree with you. Rough running engines will last longer that smooth running engines.
Be a good chap and tell all engine manufacturers that they've been on the wrong trail for the last 150 years.
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Vibration causes metal fatigue and premature wear. Balance and smoothness will reduce vibration.
The various internal parts inside an engine fight each other anyway, irrespective of whether the sum of that vibration experienced by the rider appears to be "smooth." It's simply ridiculous to connect this to engine wear otherwise no one would make a single cylinder engine! Performance engines are carefully balanced to minimize crank loading because that loading is closer to the failure point.
OK, I'll agree with you. Rough running engines will last longer that smooth running engines.
Be a good chap and tell all engine manufacturers that they've been on the wrong trail for the last 150 years.
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: boraticus
211 miles and the engine is shot? What's the debate?
Shouldn't be one - seems pretty simple; I'd think the dealer would be tripping over himself getting a new bike or new engine ready. Stuff happens sometimes, even to Hondas.
This is the debate. The guy deserves a new bike, but they are trying to possibly just replace the engine, and it will take over a month to even get an engine, then can you imagine what will happen from there if the dealer is like any I've encountered over the last 40 years? Another option is getting his money back on a lemon law type of thing. I went through this myself years ago on a new truck where the transmission was bad right out of the box. It took nearly 2 months to get that truck on the road and in the meantime I was truckless and "not happy" at a minimum. They wouldn't budge getting me any compensation or a different truck.
Originally Posted By: boraticus
211 miles and the engine is shot? What's the debate?
Shouldn't be one - seems pretty simple; I'd think the dealer would be tripping over himself getting a new bike or new engine ready. Stuff happens sometimes, even to Hondas.
This is the debate. The guy deserves a new bike, but they are trying to possibly just replace the engine, and it will take over a month to even get an engine, then can you imagine what will happen from there if the dealer is like any I've encountered over the last 40 years? Another option is getting his money back on a lemon law type of thing. I went through this myself years ago on a new truck where the transmission was bad right out of the box. It took nearly 2 months to get that truck on the road and in the meantime I was truckless and "not happy" at a minimum. They wouldn't budge getting me any compensation or a different truck.
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Originally Posted By: RonH
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: boraticus
211 miles and the engine is shot? What's the debate?
Shouldn't be one - seems pretty simple; I'd think the dealer would be tripping over himself getting a new bike or new engine ready. Stuff happens sometimes, even to Hondas.
This is the debate. The guy deserves a new bike, but they are trying to possibly just replace the engine, and it will take over a month to even get an engine, then can you imagine what will happen from there if the dealer is like any I've encountered over the last 40 years? Another option is getting his money back on a lemon law type of thing. I went through this myself years ago on a new truck where the transmission was bad right out of the box. It took nearly 2 months to get that truck on the road and in the meantime I was truckless and "not happy" at a minimum. They wouldn't budge getting me any compensation or a different truck.
I know where they're coming from (had a new company vehicle's engine die and waited almost a month it to get taken care of - while we had to use a rental vehicle, at our expense). That guy is definitely in one of those "once in a lifetime" messes that we all hope to avoid. To me, anyway, it would be great PR if the dealer/Honda ponied up a new 'Wing.
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: boraticus
211 miles and the engine is shot? What's the debate?
Shouldn't be one - seems pretty simple; I'd think the dealer would be tripping over himself getting a new bike or new engine ready. Stuff happens sometimes, even to Hondas.
This is the debate. The guy deserves a new bike, but they are trying to possibly just replace the engine, and it will take over a month to even get an engine, then can you imagine what will happen from there if the dealer is like any I've encountered over the last 40 years? Another option is getting his money back on a lemon law type of thing. I went through this myself years ago on a new truck where the transmission was bad right out of the box. It took nearly 2 months to get that truck on the road and in the meantime I was truckless and "not happy" at a minimum. They wouldn't budge getting me any compensation or a different truck.
I know where they're coming from (had a new company vehicle's engine die and waited almost a month it to get taken care of - while we had to use a rental vehicle, at our expense). That guy is definitely in one of those "once in a lifetime" messes that we all hope to avoid. To me, anyway, it would be great PR if the dealer/Honda ponied up a new 'Wing.
Lots of variables to consider. Yes, piston speed at cruising rpms matters. Figure the piston speed in feet per second, and some of the high rpm, very short stroke engines don't have very different linear piston speed than lower rpm engines with a bit longer stroke.
Bearing surface area matters. Bearing journal diameter matters. Cam lobe ramp angle matters.
Bearing surface area matters. Bearing journal diameter matters. Cam lobe ramp angle matters.
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Lots of variables to consider. Yes, piston speed at cruising rpms matters. Figure the piston speed in feet per second, and some of the high rpm, very short stroke engines don't have very different linear piston speed than lower rpm engines with a bit longer stroke.
Bearing surface area matters. Bearing journal diameter matters. Cam lobe ramp angle matters.
I believe all these things matter much more than engine type (v-twin, inline 4, opposing 6, etc.) I also believe how well the machine is maintained and how hard it's ridden are bigger factors as well.
Lots of variables to consider. Yes, piston speed at cruising rpms matters. Figure the piston speed in feet per second, and some of the high rpm, very short stroke engines don't have very different linear piston speed than lower rpm engines with a bit longer stroke.
Bearing surface area matters. Bearing journal diameter matters. Cam lobe ramp angle matters.
I believe all these things matter much more than engine type (v-twin, inline 4, opposing 6, etc.) I also believe how well the machine is maintained and how hard it's ridden are bigger factors as well.
I bough my first CRB1000F in Germany new in 93 and ran it until 2001 168,000 km.This bike ran really hard wide open autobahn kilometres on an almost daily basis,Castrol RS 10w-60 exclusively since first OC.
New compression specs 189lb +-29lb,at 168k 181 on all 4.
Zero oil usage and no engine or trans failure.
New compression specs 189lb +-29lb,at 168k 181 on all 4.
Zero oil usage and no engine or trans failure.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, many Honda Metropolitan and Ruckus owners are commonly getting 30,000 miles plus out of the 49cc engines on these little scooters before the engine is touched. That's a single-cylinder liquid cooled engine turning 5k rpms or more average (CVT) on a fairly continous basis.
Now 30,000 miles doesn't sound like much, but considering the engine is only 49cc's - a single cylinder - averaging 30-35 mph (40-45 max), that's quite an accomplishment. That's not the upper limit on these either, a probable set of crank bearings and good to go again for another - who knows. Keep in mind these do not have an oil filter either - just a gravel screen.
I've even seen chonda scooters (chinese 139qmb clone) with 20,000 miles on them (not every day mind you). Now that's using a time-proven design with lesser-quality/lower grade parts. Same gravel screen filtration, but 95% of the chonda scooters are air-cooled at that.
Simply amazing when you consider all of the variables involved.
Rob
Now 30,000 miles doesn't sound like much, but considering the engine is only 49cc's - a single cylinder - averaging 30-35 mph (40-45 max), that's quite an accomplishment. That's not the upper limit on these either, a probable set of crank bearings and good to go again for another - who knows. Keep in mind these do not have an oil filter either - just a gravel screen.
I've even seen chonda scooters (chinese 139qmb clone) with 20,000 miles on them (not every day mind you). Now that's using a time-proven design with lesser-quality/lower grade parts. Same gravel screen filtration, but 95% of the chonda scooters are air-cooled at that.
Simply amazing when you consider all of the variables involved.
Rob
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Come to think of it, there are several Honda Helix scooters running around here with over 100,000 miles on them. 250cc's, single cylinder, liquid cooled, CVT (fairly high revving continually) - and they just keep running.
I don't believe you have to have a large (1000cc's or more) engine to get a decent life out of it. Proper maintenance and conservative OCI's are probably the most important factors.
Rob
I don't believe you have to have a large (1000cc's or more) engine to get a decent life out of it. Proper maintenance and conservative OCI's are probably the most important factors.
Rob
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Interesting that you bring up the Helix. I used to have a '93 Helix which I regrettably sold last summer. It only had 15k on but it ran great. There is a story out there on the internet about a guy who did an Iron Butt Rally on a Honda Helix scooter. That's 11,000 miles in 11 days.
Originally Posted By: Lurch
Just out of curiosity, how many miles do you think a good air/oil cooled Kawasaki ZR 7S 750 like mine would last with good oil and OCIs?
I think 100K is entirely within reach. I had a similar vintage 550 that was going great with well over 50K.
The one oil issue I encountered was when I (rather stupidly!) drove across the Mojave Desert in the middle of July. Temps were over 115F, with occasional hot-spots that must have pushed 120. The Castrol GTX I was running got hammered, pouring out as sickly black goo. M1 was much more robust, coping with summer heat quite well. I'd run a good temp-resistant Syn in the summer, particularly if you are riding in stop-and-go traffic to any degree.
If you take it easy, the valves won't need adjusting for many, many thousands of miles. I think I once went over 20K before one valve just barely failed spec. Pulling the cams to swap shims is a minor PITA.
Just out of curiosity, how many miles do you think a good air/oil cooled Kawasaki ZR 7S 750 like mine would last with good oil and OCIs?
I think 100K is entirely within reach. I had a similar vintage 550 that was going great with well over 50K.
The one oil issue I encountered was when I (rather stupidly!) drove across the Mojave Desert in the middle of July. Temps were over 115F, with occasional hot-spots that must have pushed 120. The Castrol GTX I was running got hammered, pouring out as sickly black goo. M1 was much more robust, coping with summer heat quite well. I'd run a good temp-resistant Syn in the summer, particularly if you are riding in stop-and-go traffic to any degree.
If you take it easy, the valves won't need adjusting for many, many thousands of miles. I think I once went over 20K before one valve just barely failed spec. Pulling the cams to swap shims is a minor PITA.
I ride BMWs ... a 1985 K100 and a 1994 R100. I met a guy at last year's BMW Rider Association rally who had about 750,000 miles on his 1987 K75 (In line 750). He bought it new and does his own maintenance.
Maintenance is everything on a bike.
Maintenance is everything on a bike.
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