Maybe someone needs to sponsor the old "Folger's switch" test on some oil fanatic. "We switched out this lube jockey's usual Redline with SuperTech crystals. Let's see what happens..."
Explain How Oil Can Make An Engine "Smoother"
- Thread starter Jim Allen
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Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
..all oils run smooth for me when fully warmed up..However..apon intial start-up my '86 vanagon
Well, anyone still driving a Vanagon knows a little something about subjectiveness. I thought all those died a gruesome and painful death.....
..all oils run smooth for me when fully warmed up..However..apon intial start-up my '86 vanagon
Well, anyone still driving a Vanagon knows a little something about subjectiveness. I thought all those died a gruesome and painful death.....
Originally Posted By: J. A. Rizzo
Maybe someone needs to sponsor the old "Folger's switch" test on some oil fanatic. "We switched out this lube jockey's usual Redline with SuperTech crystals. Let's see what happens..."
In the Mustang, with polyurethane motor motors, a tubular K-member with delrin bushings, and caster/camber plates with no bushings, I would take that challenge.
I wouldn't be so confident in the F150 though, as the engine is pretty well damped.
Maybe someone needs to sponsor the old "Folger's switch" test on some oil fanatic. "We switched out this lube jockey's usual Redline with SuperTech crystals. Let's see what happens..."
In the Mustang, with polyurethane motor motors, a tubular K-member with delrin bushings, and caster/camber plates with no bushings, I would take that challenge.
I wouldn't be so confident in the F150 though, as the engine is pretty well damped.
4 of 5 people who i convinced to try synpower came back to me asking why the car ran smoother. that has to mean something. i guess the additives inside synpower does a better job fillin up the micro gaps in the cylinder wall than other oils ive tried. thats the only explanation i can thinkn of.
Thought I'd jump in since this may be the start of the longest thread ever... 
"kinematics and acoustics with a speck of thermodynamics thrown in" - previously quoted and I believe to be the scientific explanation.
Define "smoother" - (Mikey's dictionary) It's quieter and less bumpy...
In the 30+ cars I've owned over the years - EVERY one of them ran quieter right after a oil change. The oil pressure gauge always was higher at idle and it seemed to run cooler.
I think temperature has been a missed important ingredient - If an engine is running a little cooler after an oil change, then isn't the engine running a little easier? less friction = less noise?
I think the main problem with the question is there are many ways to define "smoother". Smooth as a baby's bottom? Smooth as in no clacking valve train noise?
"kinematics and acoustics with a speck of thermodynamics thrown in" - previously quoted and I believe to be the scientific explanation.
Define "smoother" - (Mikey's dictionary) It's quieter and less bumpy...
In the 30+ cars I've owned over the years - EVERY one of them ran quieter right after a oil change. The oil pressure gauge always was higher at idle and it seemed to run cooler.
I think temperature has been a missed important ingredient - If an engine is running a little cooler after an oil change, then isn't the engine running a little easier? less friction = less noise?
I think the main problem with the question is there are many ways to define "smoother". Smooth as a baby's bottom? Smooth as in no clacking valve train noise?
Thinner more appropriate oil can sure make an engine smoother.
Moly additives can make a difference that can be felt.
[Probably from the cam system.]
Moly additives can make a difference that can be felt.
[Probably from the cam system.]
The truth is somewhere in the middle. In many cases, like an oil change to the same oil, it is the placebo effect.
In other cases, I think there are subtle differences, but most people will exaggerate them for dramatic purposes. Of course, smoothness does not always translate into less engine wear.
In my 1997 Camry V-6, Valvoline SynPower 10W-30 was slightly smoother than other oils, Mobil 1 10W-30 had a faint metallic whir, and Red Line 5W-30 resembled M1, but it was smoother in cold starts or at high rpm. The RLI 0W-20 I'm currently running in a Civic Hybrid is drastically smoother than any of the above oils, but given the current animosity towards RLI on BITOG, I don't expect anyone to believe me.
The best scientific theory is reduced lubricity (friction) due to the base oils or additives. See "lubricity" as one of the advantages that is attributed to esters in this article, "An Overview of Esters in Synthetic Lubricants":
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272&page=all
In other cases, I think there are subtle differences, but most people will exaggerate them for dramatic purposes. Of course, smoothness does not always translate into less engine wear.
In my 1997 Camry V-6, Valvoline SynPower 10W-30 was slightly smoother than other oils, Mobil 1 10W-30 had a faint metallic whir, and Red Line 5W-30 resembled M1, but it was smoother in cold starts or at high rpm. The RLI 0W-20 I'm currently running in a Civic Hybrid is drastically smoother than any of the above oils, but given the current animosity towards RLI on BITOG, I don't expect anyone to believe me.
The best scientific theory is reduced lubricity (friction) due to the base oils or additives. See "lubricity" as one of the advantages that is attributed to esters in this article, "An Overview of Esters in Synthetic Lubricants":
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272&page=all
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My 1994 LS400 had many different dino/syn brands in grades 5W30 and 10W30 and I could not tell the differences between dino and syn and between brands.
My 2004 S2000 is similar, I could detect any differences between dino and syn and between brands.
My 2000 E430 is different. I got noisier with M1 0W40 after 7-8 years, it got to a point that I decided to try thinner oil after reading Dr Hass papers. It is much quieter with PP and Synpower 5W20 and M1 0W20, specially when the engine is at idle after warmed up. At idle with M1 0W40 I could not hear ACC fan noise until the speed was up to 3 or 4, with xW20 oil I could hear the fan noise at the lowest speeds of 1 or 2. At normal driving speed on city streets or on highway, I did not feel much differences between 0W40 and 5W20, only a slight advantage in quietness to the thinner oil.
From my experiences with this particular car (my car only, not every 2000 E430), thinner oil does make the engine run quieter. I will try thinner oil (I have a bunch Sunpower and PP 5W20) in other cars in the Fall to see if it will make any differences.
My 2004 S2000 is similar, I could detect any differences between dino and syn and between brands.
My 2000 E430 is different. I got noisier with M1 0W40 after 7-8 years, it got to a point that I decided to try thinner oil after reading Dr Hass papers. It is much quieter with PP and Synpower 5W20 and M1 0W20, specially when the engine is at idle after warmed up. At idle with M1 0W40 I could not hear ACC fan noise until the speed was up to 3 or 4, with xW20 oil I could hear the fan noise at the lowest speeds of 1 or 2. At normal driving speed on city streets or on highway, I did not feel much differences between 0W40 and 5W20, only a slight advantage in quietness to the thinner oil.
From my experiences with this particular car (my car only, not every 2000 E430), thinner oil does make the engine run quieter. I will try thinner oil (I have a bunch Sunpower and PP 5W20) in other cars in the Fall to see if it will make any differences.
Obviously, some oils simply get lumpy after a while and the lumpiness manifests itself as a difference in engine smoothness. Changing the oil fixes the problem for a while. Other oils are more resistant to getting lumpy, but it all varies from engine to engine.
Probably the "roughest" oil I've ever run was the Aunt Jemima 20w50 I picked up on sale at the grocery store last year. I'll *never* run that stuff again!
Probably the "roughest" oil I've ever run was the Aunt Jemima 20w50 I picked up on sale at the grocery store last year. I'll *never* run that stuff again!
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
So many people on this board now offer anecdotal comments that a particular oil brand or viscosity grade makes their engine "smoother" or "rougher" or "more quiet" or "noisier." I'd very much like to know the science behind these comments.
For myself, I honestly cannot think of how one oil or another can make an engine smoother or rougher.
Simple, Mobil 1"smooths"the metal off the parts.
So many people on this board now offer anecdotal comments that a particular oil brand or viscosity grade makes their engine "smoother" or "rougher" or "more quiet" or "noisier." I'd very much like to know the science behind these comments.
For myself, I honestly cannot think of how one oil or another can make an engine smoother or rougher.
Simple, Mobil 1"smooths"the metal off the parts.
The Mobil 1 15w50 seems to make the engine quieter and smoother than the Mobil 1 5w50 this is not in my mind.
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Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Now here's my own prejudice in the street analysis. I always attributed the "smoother sounding" claims to the placebo effect, but the claims of "noisier" or "less smooth" were totally ignored.
At the risk of sounding stupid, again, what's the difference?
One is "better" ..and the other is "worse".
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Now here's my own prejudice in the street analysis. I always attributed the "smoother sounding" claims to the placebo effect, but the claims of "noisier" or "less smooth" were totally ignored.
At the risk of sounding stupid, again, what's the difference?
One is "better" ..and the other is "worse".
Jim,
I think what people really perceive is a difference in either sound level, or maybe pitch.
If the engine is quieter, it may also seem smoother.
Now, the '99 Accord is quieter on M1 15W-50 than it is with M1 0W-30. This is not all in my head.
I also know that in the fall, it will revert to M1 5W or 0W-30, since I have a change of both in the stash. I will be surprised at how much more freely the engine revs. I noted this last fall when I swapped out last summer's run of the 15W-50.
If I am right, and sound level does change perceptably with a change in oil, this would be a pretty easy change to verify objectively, for anyone who has a sound pressure meter.
I think what people really perceive is a difference in either sound level, or maybe pitch.
If the engine is quieter, it may also seem smoother.
Now, the '99 Accord is quieter on M1 15W-50 than it is with M1 0W-30. This is not all in my head.
I also know that in the fall, it will revert to M1 5W or 0W-30, since I have a change of both in the stash. I will be surprised at how much more freely the engine revs. I noted this last fall when I swapped out last summer's run of the 15W-50.
If I am right, and sound level does change perceptably with a change in oil, this would be a pretty easy change to verify objectively, for anyone who has a sound pressure meter.
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But that's a change in viscosity ..and a somewhat radical one. I've seen/heard this myself. Going from a 5w-20 (or 0w-10, for that matter) that produced a lower idle slight tapping (not even enough to call a "tick") to a 20w-50 conventional ..where the engine seemed "tight" and silent would not be unexpected.
But switching from a Group II+ to a Group III/IV (usually associated with a name brand) and finding identical visc's noisier or quieter ..smoother or rougher ..there's where you can run into
if you haven't experienced it.
But switching from a Group II+ to a Group III/IV (usually associated with a name brand) and finding identical visc's noisier or quieter ..smoother or rougher ..there's where you can run into
Originally Posted By: virginoil
The Mobil 1 15w50 seems to make the engine quieter and smoother than the Mobil 1 5w50 this is not in my mind.
I think there are a Couple of things going on here:
1) Sometimes, People WILL put an Oil that is TOO HEAVY for their Engine. ... And just like someone at the Gym that has Just Started, or whatever the Case may be.. its simply -TOO HEAVY!- .. And the Engine will feel Weighed Down.
Example: 10W-40 in a 1988 Honda CRX.. Felt like LEAD... SLUGGISH Engine!
Perhaps this is a Part of it.. although not certainly all the time ((M1 15W-50 seemed like the way i was gonna go, had my BMW lasted.. the BMW likes Heavy Oil, as does my Jaguar. American Car that says "Use 5W-30" should be fine with that grade.)
2) I believe we are ALL overlooking the :Oil Film." THIS FILM IS WHAT I THINK IS DOING IT!!!!
For example: MY oil now.. 10W-40 (Result after "Mixing" grades of Same TYPE of Oil. Safety First.) -- So, i have a "40-weight" Film! PLENTY of peopel say the Jaguar 4.2L Inline-6 i have considers "30-Weight" to be Too LIGHT! "Film will Break" OR not Cushion the Bearings enough!! .. I agree. So, i have a nice "40-weight" Film. My Oil PRESSURE is 40Psi at Hot Idle, and "60Psi" Hot running down the Road (Relief Pressure is 65Psi, not sure...) .. But if a certian brand and Grade of Oil is making yoru Engine's Rodds/Crank/Cam/ "Rotating Moving Parts" MOST HAPPY (Chemical Composition, Film Composition, CUSHION being provided) ... THEN its liek sitting on a sOFT PILLOW vs sitting on a THIN pillow! (For the Mocing Parts.) So perhaps it is THE FILM.. Im sure this can "Make an Engine Smoother?"
3) Last thing is.. "Felt and Heard." To FEEL a Difference.. See 1. to HEAR a Difference.. .. Willa Heavy enough Oil (Film) "Quiet" and/or Stop" "Valve Ticking"? OR is it the Make-up of the Oil?
Just soome insight, and observations.. Thanks!
1985 Jaguar XJ6 4.2L Inline-6
152,000 Miles
10W-40 after 2 Qts 5W-30 Full Synth MaxLife; 4 Qts 10W-40 MaxLife Synthetic Blend; and 2 Quarts MaxLife 20W-50 Synthetic Blend.
.. Post #2.. 3 coming Later.
The Mobil 1 15w50 seems to make the engine quieter and smoother than the Mobil 1 5w50 this is not in my mind.
I think there are a Couple of things going on here:
1) Sometimes, People WILL put an Oil that is TOO HEAVY for their Engine. ... And just like someone at the Gym that has Just Started, or whatever the Case may be.. its simply -TOO HEAVY!- .. And the Engine will feel Weighed Down.
Example: 10W-40 in a 1988 Honda CRX.. Felt like LEAD... SLUGGISH Engine!
Perhaps this is a Part of it.. although not certainly all the time ((M1 15W-50 seemed like the way i was gonna go, had my BMW lasted.. the BMW likes Heavy Oil, as does my Jaguar. American Car that says "Use 5W-30" should be fine with that grade.)
2) I believe we are ALL overlooking the :Oil Film." THIS FILM IS WHAT I THINK IS DOING IT!!!!
For example: MY oil now.. 10W-40 (Result after "Mixing" grades of Same TYPE of Oil. Safety First.) -- So, i have a "40-weight" Film! PLENTY of peopel say the Jaguar 4.2L Inline-6 i have considers "30-Weight" to be Too LIGHT! "Film will Break" OR not Cushion the Bearings enough!! .. I agree. So, i have a nice "40-weight" Film. My Oil PRESSURE is 40Psi at Hot Idle, and "60Psi" Hot running down the Road (Relief Pressure is 65Psi, not sure...) .. But if a certian brand and Grade of Oil is making yoru Engine's Rodds/Crank/Cam/ "Rotating Moving Parts" MOST HAPPY (Chemical Composition, Film Composition, CUSHION being provided) ... THEN its liek sitting on a sOFT PILLOW vs sitting on a THIN pillow! (For the Mocing Parts.) So perhaps it is THE FILM.. Im sure this can "Make an Engine Smoother?"
3) Last thing is.. "Felt and Heard." To FEEL a Difference.. See 1. to HEAR a Difference.. .. Willa Heavy enough Oil (Film) "Quiet" and/or Stop" "Valve Ticking"? OR is it the Make-up of the Oil?
Just soome insight, and observations.. Thanks!
1985 Jaguar XJ6 4.2L Inline-6
152,000 Miles
10W-40 after 2 Qts 5W-30 Full Synth MaxLife; 4 Qts 10W-40 MaxLife Synthetic Blend; and 2 Quarts MaxLife 20W-50 Synthetic Blend.
.. Post #2.. 3 coming Later.
As you know, oils labeled as being of identical grade can have greatly different actual viscosities.
A good example would be M1 0W-30 vs GC.
My swag is that these oils probably contain similar levels of PAO.
GC is a very quiet oil in any application I've tried it in, while the M1 is certainly a little louder, because it is thinner than GC at any temeprature, and has lower HT/HS.
So, even when comparing identical grades, you can see fairly dramatic differences in viscosity among different brands.
Now, does basestock or add pack make a difference in engine noise or smoothness?
Maybe. I know that Castrol GTX always seems like a quiet oil, along with PYB, but then GTX is at the thick end of any given range. PP did not seem as quiet as either when I was using it regularly. The older Accord is going back on a PP diet after the summer, since I have lots of it stashed.
It will be intersting to see what subjective impressions we have of its running on PP vs M1.
A good example would be M1 0W-30 vs GC.
My swag is that these oils probably contain similar levels of PAO.
GC is a very quiet oil in any application I've tried it in, while the M1 is certainly a little louder, because it is thinner than GC at any temeprature, and has lower HT/HS.
So, even when comparing identical grades, you can see fairly dramatic differences in viscosity among different brands.
Now, does basestock or add pack make a difference in engine noise or smoothness?
Maybe. I know that Castrol GTX always seems like a quiet oil, along with PYB, but then GTX is at the thick end of any given range. PP did not seem as quiet as either when I was using it regularly. The older Accord is going back on a PP diet after the summer, since I have lots of it stashed.
It will be intersting to see what subjective impressions we have of its running on PP vs M1.
In order to listen for engine noise the car must have a quiet exhaust like the original factory system. Listen from outside the car after it's fully warmed up.
Does the oil have any control over idle speed?
My engine does not run smooth when idle speed momentarily drops a little below normal idle speed which happens when I'm waiting at a red light. It then smooths out after engine recovers to normal idle speed.
Does the oil have any control over idle speed?
My engine does not run smooth when idle speed momentarily drops a little below normal idle speed which happens when I'm waiting at a red light. It then smooths out after engine recovers to normal idle speed.
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