New Shear Stability test by AMSOIL
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They don't have too. But that doesn't absolve them from trying to mislead an ignorant public by stacking the deck in their favor. One could argue that it's the fault of the ignorant to inform themselves, and that is true. But it is what it is. No respect to Amsoil from the informed people is the other side of the sword for them.
Originally Posted By: sicko
I don't use (or need) any of the oils listed, so although it may sound like I'm being partial I really am not, I'm just tossing another option or perspective out there.
I think it really comes down to what was the ultimate purpose of the test, does Amsoil want to show that they're the best diesel engine oil period. Or do they simply want to show people who buy their own oil that it's worth it to step up to Amsoil?
Redline, Schaeffer's, and others make excellent quality oils. But my initial impression is that Amsoil is not trying to sway customers away from them, but rather convince customers from the auto parts store oil isle to move up to their level.
So I don't believe Amsoil is trying to steal customers away from other "boutique" oil companies, but rather trying to convince customers to move up to the "boutique" level.
Again, don't flame me, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.
I echo these thoughts exactly.
I don't use (or need) any of the oils listed, so although it may sound like I'm being partial I really am not, I'm just tossing another option or perspective out there.
I think it really comes down to what was the ultimate purpose of the test, does Amsoil want to show that they're the best diesel engine oil period. Or do they simply want to show people who buy their own oil that it's worth it to step up to Amsoil?
Redline, Schaeffer's, and others make excellent quality oils. But my initial impression is that Amsoil is not trying to sway customers away from them, but rather convince customers from the auto parts store oil isle to move up to their level.
So I don't believe Amsoil is trying to steal customers away from other "boutique" oil companies, but rather trying to convince customers to move up to the "boutique" level.
Again, don't flame me, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.
I echo these thoughts exactly.
Amsoil is the only company that does the comparisons, ever. I wish another company would take their best product and compare it to Amsoils top of the line for the application.
I have used Amsoil products since 1985 or so and have never had an issue. It is refreshing to go to their product page and pull up the data on an oil.
I'm sure that Schaeffers is a great oil, although I have never tried it. Schaefers ought to try and beat Amsoil in a test then.
Conspiracy theorists on this board who hate Amsoil, all the time, ought to take their favorite oil and come up with some facts of why it is better. Show a test or data to prove it.
Many posters on this board agree that Mobil 1 products are high quality direct competition to Amsoil, and Amsoil includes Mobil 1 in their comparisons. If someone elses oil proves to be better than Amsoil, then I will use it.
I have used Amsoil products since 1985 or so and have never had an issue. It is refreshing to go to their product page and pull up the data on an oil.
I'm sure that Schaeffers is a great oil, although I have never tried it. Schaefers ought to try and beat Amsoil in a test then.
Conspiracy theorists on this board who hate Amsoil, all the time, ought to take their favorite oil and come up with some facts of why it is better. Show a test or data to prove it.
Many posters on this board agree that Mobil 1 products are high quality direct competition to Amsoil, and Amsoil includes Mobil 1 in their comparisons. If someone elses oil proves to be better than Amsoil, then I will use it.
The tests may be for the purpose of convincing those that already use their stuff to stay; or that it 'proves' that the price they are paying is somehow worth it.
I've been using (and selling) AMSOIL since 1977. AMSOIL has been publishing comparison testing results for many, many years. While initial testing is done internally, the published results are always run in independent labs (sure, AMSOIL may pay for the tests).
Far as I know, and as I have been told, no company has ever contested the published results. Period!!!
AMSOIL's target is the mass market, not the smaller "boutique" oil companies. Heck, it is always more fun to pick on the big guys, anyhow.
Over the years, in most of the comparison's that I recall seeing, Mobil 1 is the closest lubricant when measured against all the various tests conducted. It is a very good oil, and certainly deserves the designation "Mobil 1".
Why doesn't AMSOIL publish results of comparisons against oils such as RedLine, Royal Purple, Lucas? Probably because they just aren't a significant factor in the market. In the time I've been associated with AMSOIL, I recall seeing RedLine once.
I'm certainly not knocking these oils. However, if they feel that they can outperform any of the other oils, all they have to do is have the independent labs run the same tests and then publish the information.
As a side note, AMSOIL published the white paper showing motorcycle oil comparisons. Didn't take too long for some of the major motorcycle oil producers to reformulate. And several of them improved their quality substantially. AMSOIL reformulated and improved their oils, and put out a new white paper.
If you don't, or won't, use AMSOIL, at least give credit to this relatively small player (and Exxon-Mobil) for driving major improvements in lubrication.
Far as I know, and as I have been told, no company has ever contested the published results. Period!!!
AMSOIL's target is the mass market, not the smaller "boutique" oil companies. Heck, it is always more fun to pick on the big guys, anyhow.
Over the years, in most of the comparison's that I recall seeing, Mobil 1 is the closest lubricant when measured against all the various tests conducted. It is a very good oil, and certainly deserves the designation "Mobil 1".
Why doesn't AMSOIL publish results of comparisons against oils such as RedLine, Royal Purple, Lucas? Probably because they just aren't a significant factor in the market. In the time I've been associated with AMSOIL, I recall seeing RedLine once.
I'm certainly not knocking these oils. However, if they feel that they can outperform any of the other oils, all they have to do is have the independent labs run the same tests and then publish the information.
As a side note, AMSOIL published the white paper showing motorcycle oil comparisons. Didn't take too long for some of the major motorcycle oil producers to reformulate. And several of them improved their quality substantially. AMSOIL reformulated and improved their oils, and put out a new white paper.
If you don't, or won't, use AMSOIL, at least give credit to this relatively small player (and Exxon-Mobil) for driving major improvements in lubrication.
Quote:
Why doesn't AMSOIL publish results of comparisons against oils such as RedLine, Royal Purple, Lucas? Probably because they just aren't a significant factor in the market.
Which is likely the same reason no major oil company bothers to challenge Amsoils self fullfilling findings.
If Amsoil happened to come in second or worse on any test, Amsoil wouldn't publish those test results.
Why doesn't AMSOIL publish results of comparisons against oils such as RedLine, Royal Purple, Lucas? Probably because they just aren't a significant factor in the market.
Which is likely the same reason no major oil company bothers to challenge Amsoils self fullfilling findings.
If Amsoil happened to come in second or worse on any test, Amsoil wouldn't publish those test results.
Remind me why Amsoil isn't sold in stores again?
Is the basis of the new Amsoil test similar in regard to the four ball wear test? I don't know, please tell me:
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-06/0601ATT18.PDF
"KURT ORBAHN SHOWS MAJOR MISALIGNMENTS WITH REAL WORLD, NOT APPROPRIATE FOR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION OF HD OILS"
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-06/0601ATT18.PDF
"KURT ORBAHN SHOWS MAJOR MISALIGNMENTS WITH REAL WORLD, NOT APPROPRIATE FOR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION OF HD OILS"
Another question I have is: what can we conclude by comparing one performance characteristic between various oils.
For example, what does it tell me if I compare only the TBN of 10 HDEO oils? Is the one that has the highest TBN equal the best oil?
You see where I am going with this. Form your own conclusions.
For example, what does it tell me if I compare only the TBN of 10 HDEO oils? Is the one that has the highest TBN equal the best oil?
You see where I am going with this. Form your own conclusions.
I think you're supposed to conclude Amsoil is, you know, awesome.
Originally Posted By: Ike_Clanton
I think you're supposed to conclude Amsoil is, you know, awesome.
Originally Posted By: Ike_Clanton
Remind me why Amsoil isn't sold in stores again?
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Another question I have is: what can we conclude by comparing one performance characteristic between various oils.
For example, what does it tell me if I compare only the TBN of 10 HDEO oils? Is the one that has the highest TBN equal the best oil?
You see where I am going with this. Form your own conclusions.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Is the basis of the new Amsoil test similar in regard to the four ball wear test? I don't know, please tell me:
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-06/0601ATT18.PDF
"KURT ORBAHN SHOWS MAJOR MISALIGNMENTS WITH REAL WORLD, NOT APPROPRIATE FOR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION OF HD OILS"
Seems like you guys are trying to say something. If we only had this level of fortitude and balance with the pop oils.
There's an existing thread here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1172315
Which begins to address the validity of the ASTM D-6278 test.
Also we have:
http://www.swri.org/4ORG/D08/global/ShearStb/default.htm
http://engineers.ihs.com/document/abstract/RYYZXAAAAAAAAAAA
I don't have the spec on this computer, but I'll read the whole thing on Monday.
It's a single lab test. Again, as I say about all tests, including the 4-ball test. It's a single bench test. No more no less. Schaeffer's uses it, other GOOD oil companies use the test. It's referenced here:
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D4485.htm
As for the 2001 Orinite presentation, I'm not sure whatever became of that but ASTM D-6278 has gone through two revisions since then, and the seems to be more widely adopted since then. I see some errors in the paper as well. Just because it's from Chevron doesn't mean it's not biased (you guys can spot bias, right?)
And of course ads for a product are supposed to say a product is awesome. Why would we think otherwise?
And yes Amsoil is sold in many stores, but what the heck does that have to do with this thread?
I think you're supposed to conclude Amsoil is, you know, awesome.
Originally Posted By: Ike_Clanton
Remind me why Amsoil isn't sold in stores again?
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Another question I have is: what can we conclude by comparing one performance characteristic between various oils.
For example, what does it tell me if I compare only the TBN of 10 HDEO oils? Is the one that has the highest TBN equal the best oil?
You see where I am going with this. Form your own conclusions.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Is the basis of the new Amsoil test similar in regard to the four ball wear test? I don't know, please tell me:
ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-06/0601ATT18.PDF
"KURT ORBAHN SHOWS MAJOR MISALIGNMENTS WITH REAL WORLD, NOT APPROPRIATE FOR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION OF HD OILS"
Seems like you guys are trying to say something. If we only had this level of fortitude and balance with the pop oils.
There's an existing thread here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1172315
Which begins to address the validity of the ASTM D-6278 test.
Also we have:
http://www.swri.org/4ORG/D08/global/ShearStb/default.htm
http://engineers.ihs.com/document/abstract/RYYZXAAAAAAAAAAA
I don't have the spec on this computer, but I'll read the whole thing on Monday.
It's a single lab test. Again, as I say about all tests, including the 4-ball test. It's a single bench test. No more no less. Schaeffer's uses it, other GOOD oil companies use the test. It's referenced here:
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D4485.htm
As for the 2001 Orinite presentation, I'm not sure whatever became of that but ASTM D-6278 has gone through two revisions since then, and the seems to be more widely adopted since then. I see some errors in the paper as well. Just because it's from Chevron doesn't mean it's not biased (you guys can spot bias, right?)
And of course ads for a product are supposed to say a product is awesome. Why would we think otherwise?
And yes Amsoil is sold in many stores, but what the heck does that have to do with this thread?
Originally Posted By: jerre310
Heck, why should Amsoil compare to a company like Schaeffers when they will not give a list price for their products. It's not the on the street popular oil. Besides their dealers run around with one arm bandits and egg beaters to show their comparisons. We go after a company like Amsoil who does pay for tests to be done. If you want your oils compared have your favorite companies pay to test theirs against Amsoil.
Strange, my Schaeffer dealer(for the last five years)has neither a one-armed bandit nor an egg beater. His wife has an egg beater that he could possibly borrow though. I'll ask him...
Heck, why should Amsoil compare to a company like Schaeffers when they will not give a list price for their products. It's not the on the street popular oil. Besides their dealers run around with one arm bandits and egg beaters to show their comparisons. We go after a company like Amsoil who does pay for tests to be done. If you want your oils compared have your favorite companies pay to test theirs against Amsoil.
Strange, my Schaeffer dealer(for the last five years)has neither a one-armed bandit nor an egg beater. His wife has an egg beater that he could possibly borrow though. I'll ask him...
Yes, Pablo, I am trying to say something. One needs to access the marketing nature of test presentations very carefully.
I believe that Amsoil makes superb oils. I am surprised when so many people here see something like this paper and everyone jumps on the bandwagon immediately and makes the assumption that due to one test of one parameter, this product will be the best product in real world applications.
Stinky Peterson (RIP) sent me his lab's data comparing shearing on 1,000's of UOAs of 15W40 HDEO oils (CI, I believe) and the boutique oils were in the middle of the pack (for this one test only.....not overall performance).
Most companies market "tests" like Amsoil does. John Deere does it. I went thru the traveling Shell truck demo and it "convinced" me that Rotella was the best based on how they presented the info. http://www.forconstructionpros.com/article/photos/1243865693240_shellrotella.jpg
I also was surprised how many people here tried to judge oils based on the "new sheriff in town" thread.....forming oil quality rankings on mfg. data without regard to real world variables.
I'm a cynic by nature and I am questioning the marketing hub bub more than than anything else. I am also a sucker for slick marketing. It affects decisions in a very subliminal way.
I believe that Amsoil makes superb oils. I am surprised when so many people here see something like this paper and everyone jumps on the bandwagon immediately and makes the assumption that due to one test of one parameter, this product will be the best product in real world applications.
Stinky Peterson (RIP) sent me his lab's data comparing shearing on 1,000's of UOAs of 15W40 HDEO oils (CI, I believe) and the boutique oils were in the middle of the pack (for this one test only.....not overall performance).
Most companies market "tests" like Amsoil does. John Deere does it. I went thru the traveling Shell truck demo and it "convinced" me that Rotella was the best based on how they presented the info. http://www.forconstructionpros.com/article/photos/1243865693240_shellrotella.jpg
I also was surprised how many people here tried to judge oils based on the "new sheriff in town" thread.....forming oil quality rankings on mfg. data without regard to real world variables.
I'm a cynic by nature and I am questioning the marketing hub bub more than than anything else. I am also a sucker for slick marketing. It affects decisions in a very subliminal way.
Fair enough. I see nothing wrong with your approach. Observe the world, do your own judging. I agree - one test is only ONE PARAMETER (or maybe a few, depending of course).
I guess what REALLY gets my goat is what I will name the "PU phenomena". A motor oil that has essentially NO proven track record, yet look at the swarms. (how many are actually speaking logic about PU?) Amsoil produces one small marketing piece with testing from a 3rd party lab, and look at the doubt (and some not even related hate posts) - certainly not: "everyone jumps on the bandwagon immediately"
Example:
Q: Why is there a thread on hats allowed in the motor oil section?
A: Because they are PU hats!
Quote:
I'm a cynic by nature and I am questioning the marketing hub bub more than than anything else
Go to the main motor oil page, and ask yourself - are you REALLY?
I guess what REALLY gets my goat is what I will name the "PU phenomena". A motor oil that has essentially NO proven track record, yet look at the swarms. (how many are actually speaking logic about PU?) Amsoil produces one small marketing piece with testing from a 3rd party lab, and look at the doubt (and some not even related hate posts) - certainly not: "everyone jumps on the bandwagon immediately"
Example:
Q: Why is there a thread on hats allowed in the motor oil section?
A: Because they are PU hats!
Quote:
I'm a cynic by nature and I am questioning the marketing hub bub more than than anything else
Go to the main motor oil page, and ask yourself - are you REALLY?
One thing that many forget in these "tests" threads. $MONEY$
It costs THOUSANDS to create and administer any one test. Amsoil, Schaeffers, and I am sure the other boutiques as well will do any number of internal and external tests on any number of products. Why? To produce superior end products. Realistically from a cost standpoint it is unachievable to test against all and include all relevant tests. Yes, some may be done with a marketing bent that do indeed conclude with favorable impressions of the host for that individual test.
It costs THOUSANDS to create and administer any one test. Amsoil, Schaeffers, and I am sure the other boutiques as well will do any number of internal and external tests on any number of products. Why? To produce superior end products. Realistically from a cost standpoint it is unachievable to test against all and include all relevant tests. Yes, some may be done with a marketing bent that do indeed conclude with favorable impressions of the host for that individual test.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Seems like you guys are trying to say something. If we only had this level of fortitude and balance with the pop oils.
Oh, I was trying to say how much I like buying my oil out of the back of a '81 VW diesel pickup from a guy wearing Round House overalls and a straw hat, because he's my distributor. An entrepreneur, you might say. And when he parks next to the watermelon and tomato guy it can be a real time saver.
Summer is coming up, so I am also hopeful I can get me some Amsoil along with my yearly bottle of Skin So Soft from the Avon lady. I hate them skeeters!
Seems like you guys are trying to say something. If we only had this level of fortitude and balance with the pop oils.
Oh, I was trying to say how much I like buying my oil out of the back of a '81 VW diesel pickup from a guy wearing Round House overalls and a straw hat, because he's my distributor. An entrepreneur, you might say. And when he parks next to the watermelon and tomato guy it can be a real time saver.
Summer is coming up, so I am also hopeful I can get me some Amsoil along with my yearly bottle of Skin So Soft from the Avon lady. I hate them skeeters!
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Amsoil doesn't test them or doesn't post the test because they performed better than Amsoil...
Please post hard proof of this. Thanks.
No company in their right mind publishes a test of their product when it's outperformed by a competing product, or even if that product has nearly equal performance. I'd be willing to guess Amsoil has had those tests run and wouldn't blame them for not including the data. It would be marketing suicide! Still, I think it would be VERY interesting to compare ALL the top boutique oils in the types of tests Amsoil does.
Or, Pablo, can you tell us categorically that Amsoil has not tested ALL the directly competing products like Redline, LE, Schaeffers, etc.? Or then decided not to include that data if it reflected poorly on Amsoil?
Personally, I don't get too bothered any more by marketing schemes... whichever flavor. It's how the game is played and a company withers on the vine if it can't get ahead of the curve somehow. If someone as an individual doesn't like it, it will take a societal change to end it. What does bug me is holding too tight to technical info. At least that's not something you can fault Amsoil over.
As to the test referenced by the OP, it's interesting as far as it goes but I'd like to see the rest of it. Is there a rest of it?
Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Amsoil doesn't test them or doesn't post the test because they performed better than Amsoil...
Please post hard proof of this. Thanks.
No company in their right mind publishes a test of their product when it's outperformed by a competing product, or even if that product has nearly equal performance. I'd be willing to guess Amsoil has had those tests run and wouldn't blame them for not including the data. It would be marketing suicide! Still, I think it would be VERY interesting to compare ALL the top boutique oils in the types of tests Amsoil does.
Or, Pablo, can you tell us categorically that Amsoil has not tested ALL the directly competing products like Redline, LE, Schaeffers, etc.? Or then decided not to include that data if it reflected poorly on Amsoil?
Personally, I don't get too bothered any more by marketing schemes... whichever flavor. It's how the game is played and a company withers on the vine if it can't get ahead of the curve somehow. If someone as an individual doesn't like it, it will take a societal change to end it. What does bug me is holding too tight to technical info. At least that's not something you can fault Amsoil over.
As to the test referenced by the OP, it's interesting as far as it goes but I'd like to see the rest of it. Is there a rest of it?
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