How about one of the above posters give a text-book definition of "synthetic" and explain how it relates to motor oils and the cost/effectiveness thereof. One-sentence Internet blabble about Base Gruppes and Syntec is the oldest, deadest myth in existance and does not belong on a technical Forum without foundation. Put up or shut up. Go read the Castrol v. Mobil pleadings, every word like I have, and come back when you are ready to discuss the subject knowledgeably.
Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platinum, or Castrol Syntec?
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Add the $60/q fake synthetic Ferrari's Shell Helix Ultra to that list. It must be awfull.
Golly. I wonder if American refined Castrol sold as "synthetic" in Europe? No, it's not, hmmmm....
Is the process that Castrol uses to create SYNTEC, as compared to Mobil1, much cheaper or not? I mean, *** forbid some one should expect the same cold weather start up as traditional PAO based synthetic for $5 a quart. But they won the court case in the States, didn't they...
BTW, I didn't say it wasn't a good oil, I just said it was a rip off...
BTW, I didn't say it wasn't a good oil, I just said it was a rip off...
So Nick, you don't have any idea of what "synthetic" means and why these oils are rightly called "synthetic" do you? Then, how can you call it "fraud", if you don't even know the meaning of the words you type?
FYI- Castrol's Gruppe III isn't Hydrocracked, it's a Wax Isomerate and I wouldn't characterize their oils as necessarily G-III anyway.
Look how Castrol "fraud" synthetic destroyed this Audi V6 after 10k intervals and 120k miles...
FYI- Castrol's Gruppe III isn't Hydrocracked, it's a Wax Isomerate and I wouldn't characterize their oils as necessarily G-III anyway.
Look how Castrol "fraud" synthetic destroyed this Audi V6 after 10k intervals and 120k miles...
Um, I didn't say they weren't "synthetic." Maybe you can't read the words I typed.
Hence, consumer fraud, charging the same premium price for a product that no longer costs what it once did to produce... It's just my opinion, I think I have a right to it even if I don't have a chemical engineering degree.
Maybe you should use the quote function so you can actually get what I said right?
But they're still no longer PAO-based, and hence, much cheaper to produce. A point you continually avoid addressing in your little marketing dept. induced attack on my "ignorant" comments... Sorry I have an opinion that inspires such passion in you, how rational and off-the-cuff this all seems...
I'm impressed, and will surely now run out and buy Castrol Syntec based on the empirical evidence you've produced with pretty picture of the Audi. Must be the "magnatec" particles clinging to that engine...quote:
Look how Castrol "fraud" synthetic destroyed this Audi V6 after 10k intervals and 120k miles...
Maybe I'll buy Mobil1 since they've run a car with over a million miles on it...
Or Pennzoil to get that sought after "Penzane™" molecule...
[ March 20, 2006, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Nickdfresh ]
Actually, if those "magnatec" particles are esters, why not? It's what everyone pays top dollar for in Redline...
Sorry, not meaning to take sides as I think Syntec is a great oil but don't understand the price structure...
I think Start-up is a great oil as well, and very underestimated...
Sorry, not meaning to take sides as I think Syntec is a great oil but don't understand the price structure...
I think Start-up is a great oil as well, and very underestimated...
Yes, but you never hear about them much anymore, as the marketing shifts... And I wouldn't pay top dollar for Red Line, although like Castrol, I think it is a fine product...
Well, I'm not against you as I've never said Castrol SYNTEC was a "bad" oil, in fact I think it's probably protects an engine as well as a Mobil1/AMSOIL/PenPlat./Red LINE etc. in about 90% of applications...
In fact, I nearly bought GC 0W-30 for my old piece of sh** car this weekend... But I don' think the cold start up numbers are the same as PAO oils on domestic SYNTEC, and I resent them not lowering the price when Castrol switched processes. Other than that, I have used it, and would again with no reservations...
Nick, how do you know what the relative cost of the additives verses the base oils? Just so I understand your previous post, you used and still use Mobil 1 in a car with over 1,000,000 miles on it and have so it's entire life? Wow, at 3000 mi intervals, that's almost $7000 worth of oil! I hope it was worthwhile to you. In one post you accuse Castrol of fraud, in the following one, you call it a fine product. Which is it?
it appears nick read an article on the internet and has determined Castrol Syntec to be a lesser synthetic. Sounds like mobil-one tears too me.
No, I was repeating an article placed on Mo1's "old" website in which they recounted having a test-BMW that went 1,000,000 mi's with Mo1 supposedly, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about major oil companies marketing slogans/propaganda --including Mobil1s... Sorry, didnt realize you were devoid of both sense of humor, and irony detection skills...
And I went 5000 miles OCI when I did regularly used Mo1, not 3000, though I don't recall stating anything to that regard, but feel free to rewrite my posts as you see fit since you refuse to quote them and refute/debate them point for point.
I accused Castrol of "marketing fraud," meaning they were charging the same price for castrol Syntec even though it cost less to produce that a PAO based synthetic. Am I wrong in this assertion? I guess not, since you keep ignoring it.
But in relative terms, Castrol Syntec is probably a good oil that's superior to most other mineral based stocks. But since I live in upstate NY, I wouldn't use it in winter weather...
I'd still use German Castrol 0W-30 if I had a newer vehicle, I may in my piece of sh!t this winter actually....
Well, some would say it isn't really synthetic. But I didn't say that since a judge ruled otherwise, and the justices of the peace know all. Who am I to quibble? I just won't use it as personal preference...
Is this the Castrol Syntec Mob out for retribution?
Are they going to cut the head off the Exxon-Mobil Pegasus, and leave it in my bed tonight?
Do people get this emotional over motor oil preferences/opinions? G@d help us all...
So, you STILL don't know what "synthetic" means?
You STILL don't know how much the cost of producing, R&D and yes, MARKETING of any oils that compete with Mobil?
How then, can you accuse Castrol of "fraud"?
Seems like resonable questions.
You STILL don't know how much the cost of producing, R&D and yes, MARKETING of any oils that compete with Mobil?
How then, can you accuse Castrol of "fraud"?
Seems like resonable questions.
Yikes
I'm not taking sides in this argument but I will say this. It cost Castrol (BP) more to make their Syntec than it cost Mobil to make Mobil 1, and hears why.
Mobil makes all of their own oils. Castrol North America does not. Castrol has to buy their base stock and additives on the open market and they have to pay someone to blend it for them. If I wasn't a Pennzoil freak I would have no problem at all in using Castrol Syntec. It's a very good product.
Now, be nice to each other and use what ever you want.
Mobil makes all of their own oils. Castrol North America does not. Castrol has to buy their base stock and additives on the open market and they have to pay someone to blend it for them. If I wasn't a Pennzoil freak I would have no problem at all in using Castrol Syntec. It's a very good product.
Now, be nice to each other and use what ever you want.
I have been a closet Castrol user since 1966. Never blew an engine or oil related problems.
Time for a rest on this one. Thanks Johnny.
Time for a rest on this one. Thanks Johnny.
I was waiting for someone ~else~ to say exactly what Johnny did. As for matketing costs, if you need to compete with Mobil, you HAVE to go National and you HAVE to spend on R&D. Once you spend on R&D, you NEED to market and sell a certian amount of product. It's just basic business logic. In no way does it mean Castrol is "ripping anyone off". I actually criticise Castrol for bringing too many products to market. How can it be said that is not customer-oriented? imo, having 20+ products on the shelf is something people should appreciate, I just don't want Castrol to waste effort making redundant stuff.
Before this thread gets locked...
For people who don't know...the chemical definition of "synthesis" is simply that a substance need be "changed signifigantly" and HC process meets the textbook definition as per chemical reference manuals. That's WHY the arbitration board rulled *correctly* in Castrol's favour. Castrol V Mobil is interesting reading and I did try to find a link to the transcript of the pleadings.
For people who don't know...the chemical definition of "synthesis" is simply that a substance need be "changed signifigantly" and HC process meets the textbook definition as per chemical reference manuals. That's WHY the arbitration board rulled *correctly* in Castrol's favour. Castrol V Mobil is interesting reading and I did try to find a link to the transcript of the pleadings.
"Late in 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil", eliminating the polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stock (that's the "synthetic" part, which makes up about 70% by volume of what's in the bottle) and replacing it with a "hydroisomerized" petroleum base stock.
Mobil Oil Corporation, maker of Mobil 1, "Worlds Leading Synthetic Motor Oil," said no fair and took its complaint to the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus. NAD often arbitrates between feuding advertisers on their conflicting claims.
The notion behind synthetic motor oils as we've known them is an elegant one.
Instead of relying on the cocktail of hydrocarbons contained in crude oil, why not go into the laboratory and build the perfect base stock from scratch, molecule by molecule, and builds it till it gets 10-carbon molecules, then combines three of those to form PAO.
The result is a fluid more stable than the usual base oils derived from crude. It keeps flowing at low temperatures. It's more resistant to boiling off, and more resistant to oxidation, which causes thickening with prolonged exposure to high temperatures.
Still, there's more than one road to the point B of improved stability.
Petroleum refiners in recent years have learned how to break apart certain undesirable molecules - wax, for example, which causes thickening of oil at low temperatures- and transform them by chemical reaction into helpful molecules.
These new hydroisomerized base oils, in the view of some industry participants provided properties similar to PAO's but only cost half as much," Lubricants World reported.
The argument before NAD tiptoed around the obvious- does the consumer get four bucks' worth of value from each quart of synthetic oil?- and plunged straight into deep semantics.
Mobil's experts said "synthetic" traditionally meant big molecules built up from small ones. Castrol's side held out for a looser description, defining "synthetic" as "the product of an intended chemical reaction."
What do unbiased sources say?
It turns out that the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Petroleum Institute (API) both have technical standards covering motor oils, and both of these organizations in the '90's backed away from their old definitions of "synthetic," leaving lots of room for new interpretations.
In the end, NAD decided that the evidence constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil, said Lubricants World."
Mobil Oil Corporation, maker of Mobil 1, "Worlds Leading Synthetic Motor Oil," said no fair and took its complaint to the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus. NAD often arbitrates between feuding advertisers on their conflicting claims.
The notion behind synthetic motor oils as we've known them is an elegant one.
Instead of relying on the cocktail of hydrocarbons contained in crude oil, why not go into the laboratory and build the perfect base stock from scratch, molecule by molecule, and builds it till it gets 10-carbon molecules, then combines three of those to form PAO.
The result is a fluid more stable than the usual base oils derived from crude. It keeps flowing at low temperatures. It's more resistant to boiling off, and more resistant to oxidation, which causes thickening with prolonged exposure to high temperatures.
Still, there's more than one road to the point B of improved stability.
Petroleum refiners in recent years have learned how to break apart certain undesirable molecules - wax, for example, which causes thickening of oil at low temperatures- and transform them by chemical reaction into helpful molecules.
These new hydroisomerized base oils, in the view of some industry participants provided properties similar to PAO's but only cost half as much," Lubricants World reported.
The argument before NAD tiptoed around the obvious- does the consumer get four bucks' worth of value from each quart of synthetic oil?- and plunged straight into deep semantics.
Mobil's experts said "synthetic" traditionally meant big molecules built up from small ones. Castrol's side held out for a looser description, defining "synthetic" as "the product of an intended chemical reaction."
What do unbiased sources say?
It turns out that the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Petroleum Institute (API) both have technical standards covering motor oils, and both of these organizations in the '90's backed away from their old definitions of "synthetic," leaving lots of room for new interpretations.
In the end, NAD decided that the evidence constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil, said Lubricants World."
This topic is so far off course it is on a different web site. Time to rest.
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