BMW oil Specification Question... Puzzling?

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Okay - so now the question is under what circumstances do you think it would be beneficial to use an oil that does not (or may not) support operation to near 100% of capability almost indefinitely?


Most of us get to use relatively mundane oils due to our power density. We have none of any appreciable amount ..so we don't need PF Flyer oils with the action wedge to make us run faster and jump higher. We're mostly trotting along.

..but I'll retort with another question. If BMW, MB, VW/AUDI were operating at 80-85mph ....in top gear ..would they need 10w-60 ...or whatever oil that the engineers spec'd for them? Why are these finely crafted engines ..with Teutonic ingenuity oozing (cleanly wiped up with a sterile white cloth) from every pore ...incapable of accomplishing what common grunt domestic droll stuff can do on totally junk oil??

Or are our traditional engines (not so traditional anymore) just too dumb to know that they should be wearing themselves to death?

Nope. I won't buy it.

This is not to say that I'd recommend it to anyone.
The question you pose is non-sensical - the BMW oil specs are designed around usage in and tested upon BMW engines. Using the example of a different engine with a different oil specification to try an draw inferences about the performance of BMW spec oil in BMW engines is quite the non-sequitor.

And FWIW, the 10W-60 is specified for use in only 2 BMW engines - the S54 and the S62's built up to 2/2000. Most other engines simply call for an LL-01 which is going to be either an xW-30 or an xW-40
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
they do - that's why the API, ACEA, BMW, MB, etc. specifications are comprised of a whole battery of engine and lab tests rather than just one test. Additionally, that's where the service indicator comes into play. for the past decade or more, the service indicator on BMW's is not just a mileage countdown. The exact functioning varies by model and year somewhat, but in most of the more recent models it is driven by fuel consumption rather than mileage.


These are issues of oil longevity ..not self destructive wear.

You're telling me I can't use SJ oil because my GM oil life monitor isn't calibrated for it (no, you're not saying this).

So? Assume that I'm going to change it at 10% of whatever the Teutonic geniuses dictate and to heck with what they think.
The OEM specifications are based around assuring a certain level performance over a certain duration. If you choose to deviate from the oil specification, you no longer can assume effectiveness for that performance duration. Exactly when and to what degree the consequences of that deviation reveal themselves is subject to many many variables and of course you may choose to adopt strategies to mitigate those consequences.

In the example you cited, SJ vs. (presumably) SM, what you are looking it an oil subject to:
* higher volatility
* less stringent water tolerance
* higher foaming
* higher deposits
* greater tendency to sludge and varnish formation
* and, yes, potentially higher wear as SJ has no ASTM D 6891 engine test requirement

I don't know how your GM OLM determines it's result, but it's determination of a safe OCI is based on SM oil performance, you will likely get different performance results by using an SJ instead. Based on the particular circumstances of your operation of that car, those results might be inconsequential, but it's even more possible they are not. As before the question is, just what is it you would expect to gain from running an SJ to make it worth accepting the risk?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
OK how's that here or there? What BMW requires and why they require it is two different questions


Eureka! Well said. Grounding the football for yardage is a penalty. Grounding it for time is not!

 

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
My question is, what would the oil's viscosity spec's be after 20,000 kms?
Is there anyone on this board who doesn't think the oil would have sheared solidly into the SAE 20 range?
I don't.

Generally speaking xW-30 oils will thicken with age and xW-40 will thin with age. So long as we are talking about decent quality oils, neither one is likely to end up in the SAE 20 range barring some sort of other engine issue.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

..but I'll retort with another question. If BMW, MB, VW/AUDI were operating at 80-85mph ....in top gear ..would they need 10w-60 ...or whatever oil that the engineers spec'd for them? Why are these finely crafted engines ..with Teutonic ingenuity oozing (cleanly wiped up with a sterile white cloth) from every pore ...incapable of accomplishing what common grunt domestic droll stuff can do on totally junk oil??


No, but if they were operating at 150mph in top gear (part of their design criteria), they would benefit from high HTHS though oil temperature may still be around 100C and pure viscosity is not a factor.

I'll say it again, only the M cars call for 60 weight, and who knows how they're being driven. If Mr. Stock Options takes his shiny new M5 to the track and spins a bearing because he didn't have the special BMW track oil put in, how is that going to reflect on the brand? Thus, the spec is what the spec is, based on the capability and possible uses of the platform. Just because you use your 5L V10 550hp 8000rpm race car to go get groceries isn't BMW's problem - you're protected if you use it how it was intended. Also, as has already been pointed out, the 10W60 TWS is only speced for a limited number of engines.

European cars don't usually win awards for being more "reliable" (although my current BMW has bested previous products I've owned - even Honda). This is because the North American definition of reliable is "never needs anything and I can simply ignore it except when it needs gas". They are, however, more "durable" than most "grunt domestic trolls" or products from the far east. You can drive a German car harder, on average, for every mile you own it and it will be begging for more at 100k, 150k, even 200k. This means later braking, harder cornering, higher throttle angle and higher revs. I'm not talking burnouts, tailgating and hooliganism - I'm talking about enjoying the act of driving. For a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or Chevy Lumina this would be considered abusive treatment and you'd be looking at some seriously compromised component life in suspension mounts, suspension members, ball joints, dampers, chassis mount points, driveshafts, engine wear etc... Driven in a spirited manner, many non-Euro cars will feel "tired" long before a euro car will. Euro cars set a higher bar during the design phase for what is considered "normal" driving.

This doesn't mean German cars require fewer repairs, break less often, cost less to maintain etc.... If you're a "sporting" driver, German and other Euro automobiles will typically serve you better for a longer overall lifetime.

If you don't drive this way, you simply won't see the point.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
European cars don't usually win awards for being more "reliable" (although my current BMW has bested previous products I've owned - even Honda). This is because the North American definition of reliable is "never needs anything and I can simply ignore it except when it needs gas". They are, however, more "durable" than most "grunt domestic trolls" or products from the far east. You can drive a German car harder, on average, for every mile you own it and it will be begging for more at 100k, 150k, even 200k. This means later braking, harder cornering, higher throttle angle and higher revs. I'm not talking burnouts, tailgating and hooliganism - I'm talking about enjoying the act of driving. For a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or Chevy Lumina this would be considered abusive treatment and you'd be looking at some seriously compromised component life in suspension mounts, suspension members, ball joints, dampers, chassis mount points, driveshafts, engine wear etc... Driven in a spirited manner, many non-Euro cars will feel "tired" long before a euro car will. Euro cars set a higher bar during the design phase for what is considered "normal" driving.

This doesn't mean German cars require fewer repairs, break less often, cost less to maintain etc.... If you're a "sporting" driver, German and other Euro automobiles will typically serve you better for a longer overall lifetime.

If you don't drive this way, you simply won't see the point.



I agree with a much of what you were saying about a performance car driven hard needing performance specs for the oil, and the high reliability/low repair expectations americans have. I don't mean to be controversial but I have to disagree with comparing non-performance model domestics with an expensive performance model BMWs. Vette's can take high speed driving abuse easy. Also you'd be surprised how much hard driving an Chavy Impala, Accord or what have you can take on top of being able to drive many miles normally trouble-free. To say well a car can take highspeed driving but not hold up as long in normal driving doesn't make a lot of sense really. They are sometimes but not always mutually exclusive.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
No, but if they were operating at 150mph in top gear (part of their design criteria), they would benefit from high HTHS though oil temperature may still be around 100C and pure viscosity is not a factor.


Sure.

Quote:
I'll say it again, only the M cars call for 60 weight, and who knows how they're being driven.


Probably the driver. Suppose he's not Doug Hillary and is Gary the geezer and just likes all the hot svelte chics that want a ride in his car. Even if he drives like Mr. Magoo?

Quote:
If Mr. Stock Options takes his shiny new M5 to the track and spins a bearing because he didn't have the special BMW track oil put in, how is that going to reflect on the brand?


Then Mr. Stock Options would get what he deserved. Going where he had no business being with either using underspec'd oils or going to the track ..eliminate one or the other and he probably would be fine.

Quote:
Just because you use your 5L V10 550hp 8000rpm race car to go get groceries isn't BMW's problem


I don't believe that anyone said that it was.

Quote:
Also, as has already been pointed out, the 10W60 TWS is only speced for a limited number of engines.


Granted, but the concept applies to just about all of the wizbang alphabet soup Euro spec's. They jump through many hoops that you may not demand them to.

Quote:
European cars don't usually win awards for being more "reliable" (although my current BMW has bested previous products I've owned - even Honda). This is because the North American definition of reliable is "never needs anything and I can simply ignore it except when it needs gas".


Oh, I agree. Traditionally, Euro's were very high maintenance ..at least compared to domestics. They've tried to move away from that, but fail pathetically. Maybe I should say that they bite you much harder than other traditional domestics.

Quote:
I'm talking about enjoying the act of driving.


If you're an enthusiast ..then you're going to "enjoy" your car. Suppose you're a poser ..or just don't enjoy pushing the envelope? Now we can debate the sensibility of the purchase ..but.. it probably ranks with buying a full size pickup to commute in ..albeit a more crude form of transportation.

Quote:
Euro cars set a higher bar during the design phase for what is considered "normal" driving.


Absolutely. I think I pointed that out. They make "competent and complete chassis" ..that are pretty much built with using near 100% output potential full time. I don't know how much more credit I can give them.

That said, it won't alter my ability to drive it like it was a Cadillac De Ville cruising down the boulevard .....as much of a waste of thoroughbred automobile that may be.


Quote:
If you're a "sporting" driver, German and other Euro automobiles will typically serve you better for a longer overall lifetime.


I would say that they would probably give you more driving satisfaction over your ownership. So far, we're in violent agreement.

Quote:
If you don't drive this way, you simply won't see the point.


I think what you're really saying is that if you own one and don't drive like you're a thoroughbred car "command pilot" ..then YOU don't see the point in owning one.

I don't think I disagree with your points as stated. As I've rudely pointed out, others may not subscribe to your rules of ownership and operation of said fine autos.

I used to mix coke with my wife's uncle's fine scotch. I obviously wasn't cultured enough to appreciate it ..but I was fully capable of drinking it.

 

[CATERHAM]

This discussion is getting very pedantic.
The 5W-30 dino oils of the day were not known to be shear stable hence the universal 5,000 kms OCI that was commonly adopted.

My main point was that ambient temp's in the past played a larger roll in the viscosity grade recommended by the manufacturer. There was a clear recognition of the connect between ambient temp and operating viscosity, i.e., using a lower SAE oil grade doesn't mean you are lowering the operating viscosity of the oil in the engine.

Today's very high VI oils have allowed manufacturer's to largely abandon seasonally adjusted oil grades and there associated complications. That doesn't mean the connection between ambient temp and oil temp has disappeared. Those of us who live in temperate climates are all to familiar with that reality.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yeah ..it's getting out there for me (as in me getting out there in my annoying way of seeking AT LEAST one small bit of concession) It's hard for loyal hard core enthusiasts to concede to less than 100% approved being valid. I don't expect them to.

 

[jpr]

It's also more than a little bit off-track. To get back to the OP's original connudrum -
* Is there a benefit to using a BMW approved oil? Definitely yes
* Can you get away with using a non-BMW approved oil? You certainly can.
* Can you use a non-BMW approved oil entirely and completely free of any consequences? No you can not.
* Are those consequences acceptable and/or manageable? Possibly, depending upon what particular oil you choose and how and where you operate the car. However, the prerequisite knowledge to do this is to be aware of just what those deviations are and how they may impact you.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada

..but I'll retort with another question. If BMW, MB, VW/AUDI were operating at 80-85mph ....in top gear ..would they need 10w-60 ...or whatever oil that the engineers spec'd for them? Why are these finely crafted engines ..with Teutonic ingenuity oozing (cleanly wiped up with a sterile white cloth) from every pore ...incapable of accomplishing what common grunt domestic droll stuff can do on totally junk oil??


No, but if they were operating at 150mph in top gear (part of their design criteria), they would benefit from high HTHS though oil temperature may still be around 100C and pure viscosity is not a factor.



(quote)

I can tell you from first hand experience in every BMW I've tracked not to mention other makes, driving for any extended period of time at high speed on the track will cause the oil temps to soar well past 100C. You may not hit 150C (although my freind's M3 will hit that on a hot day) but 130C to 140C is common. And those are the conditions where you will want the extra safety margin provided by the 40wt and heavier oils spec'd by BMW.
IMO if you're just hitting 100C oil temps you're not coming close to requiring the HTHS vis provided by the BMW spec oils.

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh ..no doubt you can surely need all the features of the spec'd oils ..no doubt in my mind. They didn't spec them for no good reason.

Quote:
MO if you're just hitting 100C oil temps you're not coming close to requiring the HTHS vis provided by the BMW spec oils.


This, I hope, we could all agree with. You're probably producing 50hp at 65mph (it's low regardless of the real number) and shouldn't require a whole lot from the oil.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: jpr
It's also more than a little bit off-track. To get back to the OP's original connudrum -
* Is there a benefit to using a BMW approved oil? Definitely yes
* Can you get away with using a non-BMW approved oil? You certainly can.
* Can you use a non-BMW approved oil entirely and completely free of any consequences? No you can not.
* Are those consequences acceptable and/or manageable? Possibly, depending upon what particular oil you choose and how and where you operate the car. However, the prerequisite knowledge to do this is to be aware of just what those deviations are and how they may impact you.



I agree with most of what you say except point C.

The main issue I have is the dogmatic approach many take in the BMW community ( and with some other makes). As soon as you deviate or interpret a requirement in a thoughtful way, they are all over you; like how dare you even think about using something not specified.

 

[JohnBrowning]

No offense but you obviously have not done much research. You are saying something as silly as someone that has never taken an advanced math class trying to make it sound moronic that advanced math even exists. In this case though it is not that complicated to understand. Pick a portion of the BMW LL-01 spec. and then look at different synthetic white paper's! HTHS is not a tough nut to crack an oil either has an hths of 3.5 or it does not. It either meets the specifications or it does not. If you can read which you seem to be able to do just fine all you have to do is compare numbers not anything esoteric or complex!

First few 5W30's sold in North America have an HTHS of 3.5 or higher because that would cut into fuel ecconomy and we can not have that the lets save fuel with thin oil Nazi's have spoken!Never mind that the leader inthe world of oil Lubrizol thinks it is stupid that is what car companies want to do to try and meet CAFE! So that means most 10W30 and 5W30 and 0W30 oils int he N.American market are in the 2.9 HTHS ball park.

BMW,Porche,DB all have lists of oil that are approved and meet their specifications.

Redline 5W30 has an HTHS that is 3.5 or better in fact their 5W20 has an HTHS of 3.3 last time I checked. On the other hand M1 0W30,5W30 and 10W30 where all around 2.9 hths last time i checked. Part of owning a Lux car is spending more for maintenance that has always been the case. If you want a cheap oil that will not kill your engine Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 is about as good as it gets. Now it is not certified I am sure but it works great in real world use see the BMW's running it on this site. Many guys use Motul 300V,Redline etc......Not a lot of PP 5W30 user's inthe BMW,Merceds,Maybach circles.....If you should want to use cheap oils like Valvoline 5W30 dino oil next time buy a Lexus they do great on anything.

You might try M1 0W40, Amsoil Series 3000 HD 5W30,Redline 5W30,5W40,0W30, 0W40, RTS 5W40,Motul 300V in any flavor you desire.THis is assuming you want to try and comply with the recommendations of BMW. I would not lose sleep over it I would Run M1 0W40 in the winter months and RTS 5W40 int he warm months and call it good and I would not lose any sleep at all!

 

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: jpr
It's also more than a little bit off-track. To get back to the OP's original connudrum -
* Is there a benefit to using a BMW approved oil? Definitely yes
* Can you get away with using a non-BMW approved oil? You certainly can.
* Can you use a non-BMW approved oil entirely and completely free of any consequences? No you can not.
* Are those consequences acceptable and/or manageable? Possibly, depending upon what particular oil you choose and how and where you operate the car. However, the prerequisite knowledge to do this is to be aware of just what those deviations are and how they may impact you.



I agree with most of what you say except point C.

The main issue I have is the dogmatic approach many take in the BMW community ( and with some other makes). As soon as you deviate or interpret a requirement in a thoughtful way, they are all over you; like how dare you even think about using something not specified.
Fair enough, but I believe C and D are really just two sides of the same coin. The dogmatic approach that the BMW specs are irrelevant is just as annoying as the dogmatic approach that any deviation will be automatically and quickly fatal to your engine.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If BMW, MB, VW/AUDI were operating at 80-85mph ....in top gear ..would they need 10w-60 ...or whatever oil that the engineers spec'd for them? Why are these finely crafted engines ..with Teutonic ingenuity oozing (cleanly wiped up with a sterile white cloth) from every pore ...incapable of accomplishing what common grunt domestic droll stuff can do on totally junk oil??

It's funny that you pose the question that way, because it is just as often asked why the domestic companies haven't figured out how to make engaging, torquey, responsive engines that breathe well at high RPMs and are durable under sustained maximum output operation...

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
OK how's that here or there? What BMW requires and why they require it is two different questions. Explain why many other manufactures can produce high perfomance engines in higher volume and get by just fine with 20 and 30 wt oil.

First, YOU show us an undersquare engine with high rod angles that revs to 8,000 RPM making power all the way, produces >100 hp/L without forced induction, requires no major service other than a valve adjustment every ~60k miles or so, and yet idles stably under 1,000 RPM when warm, makes good low-end torque, and is completely dependable for years in any climate... and takes a 20 or 30 weight oil.

 

[d00df00d]

One more note: I think people are forgetting that whatever the oil temp is, there are hot spots that are much hotter. Those hot spots are usually between moving parts, hence...

(say it with me now!)

High temperature
High shear

You don't need to see sump temperatures of 150 degrees C for HTHS viscosity to be relevant.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
OK how's that here or there? What BMW requires and why they require it is two different questions. Explain why many other manufactures can produce high perfomance engines in higher volume and get by just fine with 20 and 30 wt oil.

First, YOU show us an undersquare engine with high rod angles that revs to 8,000 RPM making power all the way, produces >100 hp/L without forced induction, requires no major service other than a valve adjustment every ~60k miles or so, and yet idles stably under 1,000 RPM when warm, makes good low-end torque, and is completely dependable for years in any climate... and takes a 20 or 30 weight oil.


A lot of Honda engines do that or fall into that category. But I would say though that a lot of supercharged and turbo charged engines with higher HP/L and near 8K RPM redlines probably stress the oil as much or more.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If BMW, MB, VW/AUDI were operating at 80-85mph ....in top gear ..would they need 10w-60 ...or whatever oil that the engineers spec'd for them? Why are these finely crafted engines ..with Teutonic ingenuity oozing (cleanly wiped up with a sterile white cloth) from every pore ...incapable of accomplishing what common grunt domestic droll stuff can do on totally junk oil??

It's funny that you pose the question that way, because it is just as often asked why the domestic companies haven't figured out how to make engaging, torquey, responsive engines that breathe well at high RPMs and are durable under sustained maximum output operation...


It's simple. We've got too much mundane oil to dispose of in the field.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
A lot of Honda engines do that or fall into that category.

The biggest Honda engine in that neighborhood is 1 L smaller, has 2 fewer cylinders, and makes 90 hp and 100 lb-ft less than the BMW S54, which is the smallest BMW engine that takes 10w-60.

All of those Honda engines are considered weak at low RPMs (far less torque per liter than the S54), and they all have larger rod/stroke ratios than the S54.

Of those Honda engines, which ones are designed to run continuously near maximum output for hours on end, every day, even in hot weather, for years, on the factory oil and >10,000 mile OCIs? The S54 can do that, even in conditions that drive oil temps up to 150 degrees C -- that's sump temp, not hot spots.


Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But I would say though that a lot of supercharged and turbo charged engines with higher HP/L and near 8K RPM redlines probably stress the oil as much or more.

Agreed. And you'd be foolish to run a garden-variety 20- or 30-weight oil in them.

Most of those are tuner specials anyway. The only stock 8k RPM forced induction engine I can think of is the old RB26DETT in the Nissan Skyline GT-R. That took a 40-weight IIRC, and it definitely did not spec 15,000 mile OCIs like BMW does.