BMW oil Specification Question... Puzzling?

[GhostFlame]

BMW is weird, they Spec BMW LL-01 5w-30, Castrol Syntech Euro Formula 0w-30, Mobil1 0w-40 euro formula, PP Euro Formula 5w-30, Valvoline SynPower 5w-30. All these oils are synthetic (but you knew that).

Why spec bmw LL-01 5w-30 and not M1 5w-30?
" " Valvoline SynPower 5/30 and not the others?
Why not Spec any Quaker State synthetic? Kendall synthetic? Royal Purple, Red Line, AmsOil, etc etc

This is my first BMW and I am afraid to put anything but what is speced. But, when you compare the spec on say Valvoline Syn 5w-30 and M1 5w-30 they are the same, is M1 5-30 gonna hurt my engine? could thie engine be so fussy to even know the difference?

It's out of warranty (99,218 miles as of today) and Kendall 5-30 synthetic is $2.40/qt cheaper than M1 0w-40, its an 8 qt change. thats almost $20 difference. any thoughts? I don't do 15,000 mile changes... 7500 oci.

 

[chevrofreak]

It's not the regular Valvoline Synpower 5W-30, it's the 5W-30 MST.

Mobil 1 5W-30 isn't all that good of an oil, and it doesn't meet the spec for your car.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
Why spec bmw LL-01 5w-30 and not M1 5w-30?

One of the requirements of the bmw ll-01 spec is that the oil's HT/HS be at least 3.5. That right there leaves out a lot of 0w-30 or 5w-30 oils.

 

[GhostFlame]

I still don't understand it. how can there be much difference from one 5/30 synthetic to the next? I'm never driving my car over 80 mph... mostly 25 to 55.

Trust me I'm puzzled but, I'm not messing with the plan. I use M1 0w/40 euro and BMW LL-01 --whtever store I'm closer to when I need it. the price on the BMW oil is $6.99 same as the M1. and none of it is available in 5 qt jugs.

Is there some mystery add pk in the euro formulas?

 

[GhostFlame]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
Why spec bmw LL-01 5w-30 and not M1 5w-30?

One of the requirements of the bmw ll-01 spec is that the oil's HT/HS be at least 3.5. That right there leaves out a lot of 0w-30 or 5w-30 oils.


I'm not one to understand the codes and letters but, I see what you are saying. Whateevr that ht/hs is it is something to do with the add pack. I wonder if there is anyone or a population of people that just put any old syntheic they can in these engines and what are the results for an American driver going 25 to 80 mph.

I guess German tolerances are tighter than Japanese and USA car makers, needing special oil.

I love the car but, it aint exactly "wash and wear"

 

[mechanicx]

if I had a BMW out of warranty, I'd probably run PP 5w30. you can get it for $20/5 qts, so about $32 and take the savings to run an UOA and still be less than the $56 with M1. In your climate and driving conditions, I think you will have as good as protection.

I wouldn't even hesistate to put conventional 5w30 with 8 qt sump and shorter OCI, but that's just me and not recommending it or anything.

Quote:
I guess German tolerances are tighter than Japanese and USA car makers, needing special oil.

I love the car but, it aint exactly "wash and wear"


I don't think so. If there tolerance were so tighter they wouldn't need such special heavy weight oil really. I don't think they are accounting for the N. American climate and driving conditions as well as USA and Japanese do.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
Why spec bmw LL-01 5w-30 and not M1 5w-30?
" " Valvoline SynPower 5/30 and not the others?
Why not Spec any Quaker State synthetic? Kendall synthetic? Royal Purple, Red Line, AmsOil, etc etc

A quick note: BMW LL-01 is actually a specification that BMW produces. There happens to be an oil with that in the name, because it's formulated specifically (by Castrol) to meet that spec. If you pick up a bottle of oil and the label says it's certified/approved for (NOT "recommended for" or "meets or exceeds") BMW LL-01, then you can use it, whether or not it's on the list in your owner's manual.

On to the answer:

If an oil isn't approved, it's because the manufacturer hasn't paid for the approval. BMW doesn't test the oils on their own; the oil manufacturers submit them to BMW for testing, and if they pass, BMW approves them. This is an expensive process, and it needs to be repeated every so often or if the formulation changes.

Regarding Mobil 1 5w-30 in particular, it doesn't meet ACEA A3, which is one of the requirements for BMW LL-01 approval. I'm not sure exactly why it doesn't meet that spec, but one reason is that its HTHS viscosity is not high enough (
Companies like Red Line, Amsoil, and Royal Purple sometimes talk with pride about how they don't pay for third party certifications because they know their products will pass, people use them in those applications all the time, and they'd rather spend their money making better products anyway. Take that as you will.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
I'm not one to understand the codes and letters but, I see what you are saying. Whateevr that ht/hs is it is something to do with the add pack.

High temperature/high shear viscosity. Basically, it's how thick the oil is at 150 degrees C (i.e. very high) while it's getting the heck beat out of it.


Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
I wonder if there is anyone or a population of people that just put any old syntheic they can in these engines and what are the results for an American driver going 25 to 80 mph.

People talk about using Mobil 1 5w-30 and other non-certified synthetics all the time, but there has been no real study of the effects. Use them at your own risk.


Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
I guess German tolerances are tighter than Japanese and USA car makers, needing special oil.

It's the drivers as much as the cars. In Germany, they actually drive.

Oil temps are higher, and they spend more time at high throttle and high RPMs.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: GhostFlame
Whateevr that ht/hs is it is something to do with the add pack.

It doesn't have to do with the add pack. As the previous poster noted, it's a measure of how stable the oil is if exposed to very high temperatures, such as when you run your engine hard. Such high stability is achieved with a robust base oil formulation and/or relatively high starting viscosity. High viscosity on the other hand goes against fuel economy, hence you will not find any of the oils that claim improved fuel economy on the approved bmw oil list.

 

[GhostFlame]

Quote:
It's the drivers as much as the cars. In Germany, they actually drive. Oil temps are higher, and they spend more time at high throttle and high RPMs.


The car certainly loves full throttle probably more than any car I have ever driven. What I mean is the car actually works better and sounds better and handles better the faster you go and the longer you sustain high speed... built for the auto Bahn.

My last speeding ticket was almost $400... I'll never know the true performance of this car... but, I like it a lot.

 

[E365]

I'd have to think non BMW LL-01 oils would be fine. I have a 2003 E46 owner's manual here and it says

Quote:
Specified engine oils
The quality of the engine oil is
extremely important for the operation
and service life of an engine. Based on
extensive testing, BMW has approved
only certain grades of engine oil.

Use only approved BMW High Performance
Synthetic Oil.

If an approved BMW High Performance
Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you
may use small volumes of other synthetic
oils for topping up between oil
changes. Use only oils with the specification
API SH or higher.



Quote:
Viscosity ratings
Viscosity is the oilflow rating as established
in SAE classes.

The selection of the correct SAE class
depends on the climatic conditions in
the area where you drive your BMW.
Approved oils are in SAE classes
5W-40 and 5W-30.
These kinds of oil may be used for driving
in all ambient temperatures.


They say to use "Use only approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil", but then they contradict themsleves by saying "Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30". Could one conclude anything SH or higher, 5w-30 or 5w-40 and synthetic is OK?

Also, I assumer the "01" in BMW LL-01 means 2001. Why would that standard not be the main part of the owner's manual section of a 2003 car?

I have a 96' 318ti which was before the ACEA A3, BMW LL-98, BMW LL-01, etc. specs were out. Regardless, I've been using BMW LL-01 oils such as Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol Syntec 0w-30 and Total Quartz Energy 9000 0w-30.

I'm done with those though; just too much money. Gonna switch to a HDEO. Possibly a 5w-40 Synthetic Blend from Mills Fleet Farm. 2 gallons fo $20.

 

[E365]

Here's what my 1996 318ti owner's manual shows for reference.

API SG/SH
No mention of synthetic. Too old for that?

"Average Seasonal Air Temperature"
20F and Warmer: 20w-50
0F and Warmer: 15w-50
0F to 90F: 15w-40
-20F to 65F: 10w-40
-20F to 45F: 10w-30
Below 30F: 5w-30
Below 20F: 5w-20
Full Range: "Special Oils" aka "Low Friction Lubricants" My guess is synthetics?

You can see they only recommended 5w-30 in rather colder climates.

On another note, I though it's interesting that they recommend "heavy duty motor oil" in place of the standard transmission lubricant in extremely cold climates.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: E365
API SG/SH
No mention of synthetic. Too old for that?

Yeah, quite a bit has changed since 1996.

 

[E365]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: E365
API SG/SH
No mention of synthetic. Too old for that?

Yeah, quite a bit has changed since 1996.


Yeah, that's what I assumed. Curious to what these "special engine oils" are. Has to be early BMW synthetics. They are even listed in the 1988 E32 (7 Series) manual.

 

[HondaMan]

HT/HS >= 3.5 is the answer, period. Any ACEA A3 rated low will meet this spec.

E365, your owners manual is strange indeed my 96 318i manual makes ZERO mention of anything API related. ( why would it, it is a German car, API is an American spec. )
You are spot on the HDEO, Rotella 15w-40 all the way. (Rotella 10w-30 just as good, engine will be slightly louder)

GhostFlame, at $ 6.99 per bottle of the 'Black Bottle BMW 5w-30' you are not doing too bad.

This 5w-30 is NOTHING like regular M1 5w-30, or regular Valvoline or regular PP.

GC will do the trick, M1 0w-40 will do the trick, PP Euro - only available in bulk will do, Valvoline MST will do (I think bulk only) Redline, ESSO.. etc etc... too many to list.

 

[E365]

Originally Posted By: HondaMan

E365, your owners manual is strange indeed my 96 318i manual makes ZERO mention of anything API related. ( why would it, it is a German car, API is an American spec. )
You are spot on the HDEO, Rotella 15w-40 all the way. (Rotella 10w-30 just as good, engine will be slightly louder)


Hmmm, Interesting. Under "Engine Oil Specification", the first line of my owner's manual says "We strongly recommend the use of API SG/SH class oils".

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: E365
They say to use "Use only approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil", but then they contradict themsleves by saying "Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30".

That's not a contradiction. You're reading it wrong.

What they mean to say is, the oils that they have approved are all 5w-40s and 5w-30s. It doesn't mean any 5w-30 or 5w-40 will do.


Originally Posted By: E365
Also, I assumer the "01" in BMW LL-01 means 2001. Why would that standard not be the main part of the owner's manual section of a 2003 car?

I guess what it means is that your particular car can use previous specs as well (LL-98, Special Oils).

The year indicated by the spec doesn't necessarily mean it applies to all cars from that year forward. There is now an LL-04 spec, but most BMWs in the US still take LL-01.

However, I'm pretty sure that LL-01 can be used in place of all previous specs.

 

[E365]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

That's not a contradiction. You're reading it wrong.

What they mean to say is, the oils that they have approved are all 5w-40s and 5w-30s. It doesn't mean any 5w-30 or 5w-40 will do.


I was thinking that might be the case. So they must have sold both a BMW branded 5w-30 AND 5w-40 back in the day? I'm pretty sure the only BMW dealer oils now are the BMW 5w-30 and 10w-60 TWS Castrol.

I think I remember seeing a picture of a BMW 5w-40 (or possibly a 15w-40) bottle once.

Thanks!

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: E365
Originally Posted By: HondaMan

E365, your owners manual is strange indeed my 96 318i manual makes ZERO mention of anything API related. ( why would it, it is a German car, API is an American spec. )
You are spot on the HDEO, Rotella 15w-40 all the way. (Rotella 10w-30 just as good, engine will be slightly louder)


Hmmm, Interesting. Under "Engine Oil Specification", the first line of my owner's manual says "We strongly recommend the use of API SG/SH class oils".


If your BMW is a North American spec car why wouldn't it mention API? Just like when we ship a European spec car we would have European specs for them.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Here's the deal, and it's what people still don't seem to get.

The thin USA 5w-30 will be as thick as a 5w-40 at just 20 degrees cooler operating temp.

So, unless you are heating your oil up like you are driving on the Autobahn, the oil with a thinner starting visc will work the same or better than the 5w-40 (or thick Euro 5w-30). In cool climates or under a short trip situation, the substantially thinner starting visc of 5w-30 will serve you well. Even with normal and spirited hwy driving, plain USA 5w-30 Synth is fine.

Other than the visc, the Euro specs are all about extended ocis, as far as this discussion goes.

I calculated the oil temp of a member here in a Z3 with BMW oil driven extremely hard to go down to 9cSt, a 20 weight. So, a bottled 20 weight oil, ran at +100c would be the same visc as the BMW oil at +130c or whatever he reported.

Does you car have an oil temp gauge?