Being an owner of an older car, I know what a constant hassle it is dealing with things that go wrong in our increasingly complex cars. There are systems upon systems and sensors upon sensors that will fail eventually and when they do are sometimes hard to pinpoint, expensive to replace, and usually serve some menial function. For example, all this emissions equipment! EVAP, EGR, PCV, catalysts, are all band-aids on what are inherently dirty machines. These bandaids are becoming more complex to meet increasinlgy stringent emissions standards. Transmissions now usually contain a minimum of 6 gears and are so complex with torque converter lockup at different times and electronic controls so complex, you'd think it was from a martian spaceship! Anything that is so complex is bound to fail, what do you guys think. People make fun of electric cars, but they would be much simpler to execute once they get the range up a little bit.
Car Have Become Too Complex!
- Thread starter parimento1
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the older i get the more i agree with you. i no longer like doing doing repairs on my own vehicle's. i used to think it was fun.
Doing your own repairs is nice when you don't need $6000 worth of equipment to track the problem down hehe. I've had occasions where even multiple dealers couldn't find the problem and it was a pretty severe one too. It seemed like it needed an exorcism. Oh, I almost forgot about all the electronic nannies- stability control, ABS, traction control, etc. I don't see the need for all this. I have NEVER once spun out my car even when I was trying to on an abandoned airfield in the snow! To get my car to spin I needed to apply the E-brake and turn the wheel, and in that case, even the best stability program wont help u! I really don't see the need for all this on front wheel drive cars, it really is just playing on people's fears. AND forget about when it comes time to repair these systems, you might as well drive it or tow it to the junkyard.
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I wouldn't go as far as to say that a car is "inherently dirty". Through modern technology, they are actually very very clean.
Also, they are only complex until you understand them.
For example, most people would be amazed by my S60.
Three networks (high speed can, operates at 500,000 bits per second, low speed can, operates at 250,000 bits per second, and the LIN network, operating at 25,000 bits per second). All operating with a special prioritization system called "VOLCANO" developed by Volvo, and the reason why Ford wanted Volvo.
Totaled all out over all networks, there are about seventy computers.
The camshafts can be phased a total of fifty degrees.
And much more!
Personally, I feel that the more complex they get, the better.
Also, they are only complex until you understand them.
For example, most people would be amazed by my S60.
Three networks (high speed can, operates at 500,000 bits per second, low speed can, operates at 250,000 bits per second, and the LIN network, operating at 25,000 bits per second). All operating with a special prioritization system called "VOLCANO" developed by Volvo, and the reason why Ford wanted Volvo.
Totaled all out over all networks, there are about seventy computers.
The camshafts can be phased a total of fifty degrees.
And much more!
Personally, I feel that the more complex they get, the better.
@ KLowD9x...I see you drive Volvo's, have you ever had the misfortune of tracking down an electrical problem on those?
Originally Posted By: parimento1
Being an owner of an older car, I know what a constant hassle it is dealing with things that go wrong in our increasingly complex cars. There are systems upon systems and sensors upon sensors that will fail eventually and when they do are sometimes hard to pinpoint, expensive to replace, and usually serve some menial function. For example, all this emissions equipment! EVAP, EGR, PCV, catalysts, are all band-aids on what are inherently dirty machines. These bandaids are becoming more complex to meet increasinlgy stringent emissions standards. Transmissions now usually contain a minimum of 6 gears and are so complex with torque converter lockup at different times and electronic controls so complex, you'd think it was from a martian spaceship! Anything that is so complex is bound to fail, what do you guys think. People make fun of electric cars, but they would be much simpler to execute once they get the range up a little bit.
At the same time:
- As new innovations come up, the older technologies mature and become more reliable.
- Modern materials and manufacturing can make those complex systems last.
- Better control permits cleaner, more consistent running, which prolongs component life.
Now, I do agree that it isn't all necessary. If we would all just drive lighter/smaller cars, we could get the emissions/MPG/power/longevity benefits without the expense...
Being an owner of an older car, I know what a constant hassle it is dealing with things that go wrong in our increasingly complex cars. There are systems upon systems and sensors upon sensors that will fail eventually and when they do are sometimes hard to pinpoint, expensive to replace, and usually serve some menial function. For example, all this emissions equipment! EVAP, EGR, PCV, catalysts, are all band-aids on what are inherently dirty machines. These bandaids are becoming more complex to meet increasinlgy stringent emissions standards. Transmissions now usually contain a minimum of 6 gears and are so complex with torque converter lockup at different times and electronic controls so complex, you'd think it was from a martian spaceship! Anything that is so complex is bound to fail, what do you guys think. People make fun of electric cars, but they would be much simpler to execute once they get the range up a little bit.
At the same time:
- As new innovations come up, the older technologies mature and become more reliable.
- Modern materials and manufacturing can make those complex systems last.
- Better control permits cleaner, more consistent running, which prolongs component life.
Now, I do agree that it isn't all necessary. If we would all just drive lighter/smaller cars, we could get the emissions/MPG/power/longevity benefits without the expense...
New cars are GREAT until they break/electrical problems, then they can be a nightmare! If you totaled up all the maintenance headaches of the old days, points & plugs yearly, always having to mess with carburetors & timing-new ones are simpler, but an occasional dealer trip may be necessary for diagnosis. Even diesels have gotten worse-I could train a 12 year old how to diagnose my 6.2 diesels & Mercedes, but most Ford dealers haven't been able to fix my 6.0 PSD consistently.
I have an '89 Cabriolet with Continuous (CIS) Mechanical Fuel injection, no EGR valve and no computer. It passes the emission test with flying colours and almost all 0's and the car is 20 years old and it still averages 9-10 L/100KM.
So why do we need all this new fancy junk that really doesn't do much but add weight to the car?
I dunno maybe I'm missing something... These cars are simple and for the most part indestructible.
As another BITOG-er states, cars really haven't become more fuel efficient over the years because excess weight has been added to cars, no doubt from all this extra equipment that is supposed to make pollution better. Don't know about you but I'm thinking it's a ploy to sell parts/service from the dealers. ?!?
How about making cars simple again with less "control equipment" which will then weight less and use less fuel because of this weight reduction. I'm sure we can achieve this with modern engine design and manfacturing techniques and can eliminate all the useless "controls" in the process.
I mean if my 20 year Cabriolet can blow almost clean air out the pipe why can modern vehicles with all this extra stuff do the same without it?
So why do we need all this new fancy junk that really doesn't do much but add weight to the car?
I dunno maybe I'm missing something... These cars are simple and for the most part indestructible.
As another BITOG-er states, cars really haven't become more fuel efficient over the years because excess weight has been added to cars, no doubt from all this extra equipment that is supposed to make pollution better. Don't know about you but I'm thinking it's a ploy to sell parts/service from the dealers. ?!?
How about making cars simple again with less "control equipment" which will then weight less and use less fuel because of this weight reduction. I'm sure we can achieve this with modern engine design and manfacturing techniques and can eliminate all the useless "controls" in the process.
I mean if my 20 year Cabriolet can blow almost clean air out the pipe why can modern vehicles with all this extra stuff do the same without it?
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The power of the government compels you! Soon we will have EGR for our flatulence, so we will have to breathe our farts to cleanse the "emissions" before being released to the atmosphere...
Originally Posted By: parimento1
The power of the government compels you! Soon we will have EGR for our flatulence, so we will have to breathe our farts to cleanse the "emissions" before being released to the atmosphere...
Probably in California no doubt... Don't give CARB any ideas....
The power of the government compels you! Soon we will have EGR for our flatulence, so we will have to breathe our farts to cleanse the "emissions" before being released to the atmosphere...
We need a car that's a:
- diesel, to eliminate the ignition system with mechanical direct injection
- preferably an inline four with a balance shaft or an inline six
- SOHC, with a single chain driven cam
- iron block and head
- body on frame
- rear wheel drive with a four or five speed manual transmission
- live axle/leaf spring rear end
- simple multi-link IFS
The only electrics required to make the vehicle run would be the starter, and without the starter you could push start it in a pinch. Almost any part on the vehicle could be duplicated by a decent fabricator or machinist out of readily available materials, and it probably would cost less than a good ATV to build.
- diesel, to eliminate the ignition system with mechanical direct injection
- preferably an inline four with a balance shaft or an inline six
- SOHC, with a single chain driven cam
- iron block and head
- body on frame
- rear wheel drive with a four or five speed manual transmission
- live axle/leaf spring rear end
- simple multi-link IFS
The only electrics required to make the vehicle run would be the starter, and without the starter you could push start it in a pinch. Almost any part on the vehicle could be duplicated by a decent fabricator or machinist out of readily available materials, and it probably would cost less than a good ATV to build.
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Everyone balked and said cars were too complex when fuel injection came out. Then once everyone learned how it works, they realized how much better they are than carbs. The same thing is happening with other new technologies. Just be willing to learn to fix it and quit complaining. I have 2 old cars, one is 15 years old with 148k miles, the other 17 years old with 135k, and I have NEVER had to replace a single component of their "complex electronic systems." They still have all of their original emissions equipment and catalytic converters.
Cars today are MUCH cleaner burning today than they were 30 years ago thanks to emissions equipment. Every time I drive behind an old car and can actually smell the (quite pungent) exhaust, I wonder how the heck anyone could breathe back then when EVERY car was like that.
Cars today are MUCH cleaner burning today than they were 30 years ago thanks to emissions equipment. Every time I drive behind an old car and can actually smell the (quite pungent) exhaust, I wonder how the heck anyone could breathe back then when EVERY car was like that.
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Originally Posted By: exranger06
Everyone balked and said cars were too complex when fuel injection came out. Then once everyone learned how it works, they realized how much better they are than carbs. The same thing is happening with other new technologies. Just be willing to learn to fix it and quit complaining. I have 2 old cars, one is 15 years old with 148k miles, the other 17 years old with 135k, and I have NEVER had to replace a single component of their "complex electronic systems." They still have all of their original emmissions equipment and catalytic converters.
Cars today are MUCH cleaner burning today than they were 30 years ago thanks to emmissions equipment. Every time I drive behind an old car and can actually smell the (quite pungent) exhaust, I wonder how the heck anyone could breathe back then when EVERY car was like that.
You missed the point and I never said "CARBURETOR" If you look at my original post you will see I said "Mechanical Fuel Injection"
Everyone balked and said cars were too complex when fuel injection came out. Then once everyone learned how it works, they realized how much better they are than carbs. The same thing is happening with other new technologies. Just be willing to learn to fix it and quit complaining. I have 2 old cars, one is 15 years old with 148k miles, the other 17 years old with 135k, and I have NEVER had to replace a single component of their "complex electronic systems." They still have all of their original emmissions equipment and catalytic converters.
Cars today are MUCH cleaner burning today than they were 30 years ago thanks to emmissions equipment. Every time I drive behind an old car and can actually smell the (quite pungent) exhaust, I wonder how the heck anyone could breathe back then when EVERY car was like that.
You missed the point and I never said "CARBURETOR" If you look at my original post you will see I said "Mechanical Fuel Injection"
Originally Posted By: StevieC
You missed the point and I never said "CARBURETOR" If you look at my original post you will see I said "Mechanical Fuel Injection"
I wasn't directing my post at you in particular.
You missed the point and I never said "CARBURETOR" If you look at my original post you will see I said "Mechanical Fuel Injection"
I wasn't directing my post at you in particular.
Oh sorry... I hate that about BITOG... It "Replies" to the last person.
Yes, I know that YOU may not have emissions components failm, or ignition or FI injection things fail. Consider yourself lucky, as many others have. I'm sure others will chime in.
Thanks TIG1 for your insight.
Originally Posted By: parimento1
@ KLowD9x...I see you drive Volvo's, have you ever had the misfortune of tracking down an electrical problem on those?
I work at a dealership.
So....no. They don't have wiring problems. Usually the module at the end of the wire. Rarely you will get the bad connector, but that's about it.
Very good cars, very well built.
@ KLowD9x...I see you drive Volvo's, have you ever had the misfortune of tracking down an electrical problem on those?
I work at a dealership.
So....no. They don't have wiring problems. Usually the module at the end of the wire. Rarely you will get the bad connector, but that's about it.
Very good cars, very well built.
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