Power supply question

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I have an older comp. Athlon xp 1.8 2200, 1 gig pc2700(?) and have eide drives.
I JUST had the power supply replaced w/ a 350W (under warranty) and a couple days ago I was given a Radeon x800xl. Cool, but a few sites have listed the minimun requirement of a power supply for the x800xl to be 420W while ATI's site says 300.
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Long story short, I used the new card for a few hours (gamed) and when I tried to surf, the monitor shut down to power saving mode. Tried several restarts to no avail. Put the old card (9800 Pro) back in and so far no problems. (I did all the correct uninstall/install procedures first)
If I got a larger & newer PS, will I still be able to hook up all the older equipment? I've browsed Newegg and in the spec listing they have SATA power connectors and PCIx connectors. Will a PS be hard to find with high enough wattage for this old box?
Thank you.
 
It dhould still have older connectors. The one hiccup will be the ATX connector. Make sure it is a 20 pin or a 20+4pin. A 24pin will not work. A 20+4 will have the extra pins but are designed to be separated from the other 20 you need.
 
Originally Posted By: Toy4x4
I have an older comp. Athlon xp 1.8 2200, 1 gig pc2700(?) and have eide drives.
I JUST had the power supply replaced w/ a 350W (under warranty) and a couple days ago I was given a Radeon x800xl. Cool, but a few sites have listed the minimun requirement of a power supply for the x800xl to be 420W while ATI's site says 300.
21.gif
Long story short, I used the new card for a few hours (gamed) and when I tried to surf, the monitor shut down to power saving mode. Tried several restarts to no avail. Put the old card (9800 Pro) back in and so far no problems. (I did all the correct uninstall/install procedures first)
If I got a larger & newer PS, will I still be able to hook up all the older equipment? I've browsed Newegg and in the spec listing they have SATA power connectors and PCIx connectors. Will a PS be hard to find with high enough wattage for this old box?
Thank you.


This could be a couple of different problems. I'm thinking heat is your issue though, only because you had the problem after a few hours of gaming. The first thing I'd do is put the X800 back in. Leave the side of the case open and direct a table fan into the computer. If everything is all good after a few hours you have too much heat in the case. Either get a better cooler for the video card or work to reduce the temps in the case using higher speed fans or even a 120mm fan on the side blowing across the video card.

If the problem still exists, the psu is the next thing to test. What brand of ps is it? If it's a cheap, generic psu they cause more trouble than they're worth. Get a decent 400 watt (at a minimum) Corsair, Sparkle, or other good quality psu. Both of these have a 20+4 connector that will work with your old system.

If you need more help on this issue, go to a forum called pcper.com. I've been a member there for 8 years now and the knowledge there on a system like your's is second to none.
 
Thanks for the replys.

I had the x800 out of the tower for a couple of hours while I researched the problem. I put it back in and had the issue again right away. The previous owner had no issues with the card.

Due to this I'm guessing it is the PS not having enough watts. I might have a line on a used one (BFG ?) from a gaming rig that a coworker is piecing out...5-600W.

I'll check that forum out.
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Ahhh . . . my favorite computer HW topic, PSUs. The one thing that causes all the most mysterious problems. The most important component in the box, IMO.

First off, what make is yours? The power ratings on the cheaper ones can be overstated, depending on the test parameters used. Temperature affects PSU performance. As they age, output capacity drops. This accelerates with higher temperatures. In a box running higher ambients, the capacity and stability can be compromised in the lesser quality PSUs. A hot GPU can add to the heat load. A higher efficiency model will run cooler and use less power. If you use the PSU as the primary exhaust fan you're asking for trouble. Good PSUs test at rating at 50C. A cheapie may derate by 25-40% at that temperature.

Not knowing the full system build, I can only guess at your load. That CPU is not all that power hungry. Normally, a 350 watter is plenty for that older MB/CPU combo. But multiple HDDs and a full ram fill may be pushing the limits of the PSU from a long-term perspective. Just because it's rated at 350 watts doesn't mean you want to draw that, or a majority of that, on an ongoing basis. Running at 50% of rating will provide maximum stability and PSU life.

There are some decent PSU calculators on the web that can give some general guidance as to your loads.

The other issue is not just the wattage, but the rail loads. While all PSUs draw from a common rail, those with multiple "virtual" rails spread the OCP across several branches. This can become important if you have loaded down one branch with too many HDDs, fans, GPUs and other equipment. If you overload a rail, the PSU will cause freeze ups or reboots. Cold boot up is when the greatest current draw occurs, and that is when the marginal PSUs poop out or show problems.

The best way to check out the video is to place it in a known good working system. If the issues repeat, then you've found the problem.

Otherwise, I have seen older MBs with tiring caps that work fine until you start loading up the slots, and then they start collapsing. And tired MBs will stress PSUs and vice-versa. The other thing to make sure is that you are using all your auxiliary ATX supply sockets. GPUs without discrete supply taps can draw heavily off the MBs supply bus.

Believe me, PSUs and good power distribution can be very vexing. I just had to ditch an otherwise very good 650 watter on a new Xeon server build. The 3.06 ghz Nehalem, 12 gb DDR3, and a full HW RAID array (with a flock of other PCI/X cards) was more than it could handle on the involved rails (even with staged drive spool ups). Plunking down $200 for a new one that could handle it was not fun.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but it might help.
 
Also, buy a name brand PSU.

Some of the brands on newegg are OEMS for top brands, so read the reviews.

You can't go wrong with Antec, I've been using their stuff for years.

The heavier the power supply feels, the better it is (usually)..

Those light weight ones with no name brand cause plenty of problems.
 
Or with PCP&C. Even the ones made for them by Seasonic are still top shelf, as the design inside is all PCP&C. That's we would up going with in the above server setup - a 910 watter. It's hard to overtax a 70+ amp 12v rail. But I do miss when they came in a plain brown box.

Seasonics own brand are also very good, and quiet. But you sometimes need to do some rail juggling with them on hungrier systems, as they are multi-rail designs.

Other than these two, and a couple others, all the rest are variations on a common house design by Seasonic or Channelwell or the other few companies that actually make the supplies.

Outfits like Corsair and Antec tweak these standard supply designs (usually with capacitors and some minor PCB alterations) to suit their own specs. The popular Corsair TX line are hopped-up single-rail CWTs.

Like anything else, you get what you pay for. There are no free lunches with PSUs.

Because of the marketing into this component in recent years, there is now much more reviewer and enthusiast attention paid to them. It is at least a little harder for a bad PSU vendor to survive than it used to be. Most aftermarket ones are at least good ones now.

It's the ones that come free with the case that should go right in the trash. And some of the OEM ones, where cost is a prime consideration.
 
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Ahhh . . . my favorite computer HW topic, PSUs. The one thing that causes all the most mysterious problems. The most important component in the box, IMO.

First off, what make is yours? The power ratings on the cheaper ones can be overstated, depending on the test parameters used. Temperature affects PSU performance. As they age, output capacity drops. This accelerates with higher temperatures. In a box running higher ambients, the capacity and stability can be compromised in the lesser quality PSUs. A hot GPU can add to the heat load. A higher efficiency model will run cooler and use less power. If you use the PSU as the primary exhaust fan you're asking for trouble. Good PSUs test at rating at 50C. A cheapie may derate by 25-40% at that temperature.

Not knowing the full system build, I can only guess at your load. That CPU is not all that power hungry. Normally, a 350 watter is plenty for that older MB/CPU combo. But multiple HDDs and a full ram fill may be pushing the limits of the PSU from a long-term perspective. Just because it's rated at 350 watts doesn't mean you want to draw that, or a majority of that, on an ongoing basis. Running at 50% of rating will provide maximum stability and PSU life.

There are some decent PSU calculators on the web that can give some general guidance as to your loads.

The other issue is not just the wattage, but the rail loads. While all PSUs draw from a common rail, those with multiple "virtual" rails spread the OCP across several branches. This can become important if you have loaded down one branch with too many HDDs, fans, GPUs and other equipment. If you overload a rail, the PSU will cause freeze ups or reboots. Cold boot up is when the greatest current draw occurs, and that is when the marginal PSUs poop out or show problems.

The best way to check out the video is to place it in a known good working system. If the issues repeat, then you've found the problem.

Otherwise, I have seen older MBs with tiring caps that work fine until you start loading up the slots, and then they start collapsing. And tired MBs will stress PSUs and vice-versa. The other thing to make sure is that you are using all your auxiliary ATX supply sockets. GPUs without discrete supply taps can draw heavily off the MBs supply bus.

Believe me, PSUs and good power distribution can be very vexing. I just had to ditch an otherwise very good 650 watter on a new Xeon server build. The 3.06 ghz Nehalem, 12 gb DDR3, and a full HW RAID array (with a flock of other PCI/X cards) was more than it could handle on the involved rails (even with staged drive spool ups). Plunking down $200 for a new one that could handle it was not fun.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but it might help.


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Similar scenario here, q-core Xeon, 8GB of RAM, 6x 500GB HDD's in mirrors and fitted with a 1200W PSU because the board supports dual XEON's and we've only got one in there right now..... But plan on upgrading it.

I don't think it's possible to get "too good" a PSU.

And I agree completely with your sentiments on those that comes in cases (except AOpen and Enlight cases, which come with PSU's made by SPI) belong in one spot: the trash.
 
With dualies, you'll be enjoying all the goodness of the 5500s. Lovely chips. Nehalem is the first Intel architecture that really has me interested in a good way in about 10 years.

We opted for a UP config, so went with a W3550 on a Supermicro X8SAX. Very, very fast, but a hot runner by design. In the low 50s at idle. We nearly switched to a E5520, but couldn't resist the clock speed in the end, or the fact that most of what you buy with a 5500 is wasted when run in UP. The premium for fast E and L chips is just way too high right now.

We're just hoping that the original PSU didn't overstress any regulators. But normally, merely overloaded PSUs don't cause damage. It exhibited random reboots right off the bat on sustained array activity. After two days of diagnostics, we pinned it on one PSU rail (18A max) being pushed too hard.

I don't think there's a UP solution presently made that a 74A rail can't handle. A 1.2 gigawatter should feed you more energy than a Saudi oilfield.
 
Sounds like a nice setup, and yes, I've been impressed with this PSU. Board is an ASUS DSEB-DG with a Xeon 5410 on it, probably a pair by the end of this year. Been very impressed with it, zero hickups since deployment about a year ago now.

How many drives were in the system you had the issue with?
 
The new one is a Powerman IP-S350AQ2-0. Not a very high quality one from what I've read.

The video card worked with previous owner. He couldn't use it due to a motherboard switch and went PCI instead of AGP.

Will see what happens with this BFG PS if I can get it. Otherwise, I'll look for a decent 500w to make do. I don't want to spend a bundle as this is my "holdout" rig until I can get what I really want. Someday....
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


How many drives were in the system you had the issue with?


Six big Ultrastars.
 
Originally Posted By: Toy4x4
The new one is a Powerman IP-S350AQ2-0. Not a very high quality one from what I've read.


Powermans are made by FSP/Sparkle/Fortron Source, IIRC. A big OEM maker, and a maker for such brands as In-Win and perhaps Zalman. That does not necessarily condemn the unit, as the big makers make a wide range of models from very cheap OEMs to very good server-grade models.

Absent a credible test report or a teardown, probably the best way to get a fix on quality is to see what a replacement unit sells for. Today, about $45-50 should be the dividing line at that power level. At or above that is likely a decent quality unit. A $29 model would give me pause. I don't think I'd use a $29 PSU in any system today. The agg factor in installation is worth more than that to me.

Again, with the age of the system, and your history of a prior PSU failure, you may have other issues that a stiffer PSU may not fix, such as tired or failing MB regulators, or an outright flaky board under heavier loads. I had that happen with a Tyan board about 10-15 years ago. I eventually traced it to substandard on-board cache ram that flaked out under heavy loads.

Note also that MB health monitors are not always or necessarily an infallible gauge of PSU health. If the power readings are being pulled after the MB regulators, then a good reading might only be a testament to heroic regulators. You will need to confirm with your specific MB where the readings are actually coming from. Sometimes, outboard meter readings are the only sure way.

I've got a couple old AGP rigs still purring along. They're worth keeping for another year or two for pedestrian uses, so I can appreciate your position.

Just a thought: If you're planning rolling your own system in the next six months, you can splurge for a higher-power PSU for that system now, and see if it works in this system. If it doesn't work here, then you will still have it for the later upgrade rig. Be aware of the risk that if you have a failing MB or GPU, the new PSU may be stressed. But if all you need is a beefier PSU, this could be a fine solution. Watch out, the more powerful PSUs are much longer now. Keep an eye on chassis clearances once you get much above 600 watts.
 
I forgot to mention that it was the fan in the PS that went out, not the whole unit. I was still using the system. It seemed like it was getting a bit slower and was making a buzzing noise once it had warmed up. Probably because it was getting too warm.
I found a Silverstone 500W on Newegg for $65 so if the guy at work doesn't sell his BFG PS cheaply enough, I'll go with that one. His last offer ended up at $45...not a chance.
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Originally Posted By: Toy4x4
I forgot to mention that it was the fan in the PS that went out, not the whole unit.


Why not just replace the fan for $5?
 
I would replace the fan too... Before you put it in remove the sticker on the one side and you will most likely see a removable cap. Remove the cap and put a drop of motor oil in there and put the cap back on. This will keep it running for life and stop the bearing from drying out and seizing.

Gotta love these fans made in China, they just wave the oil can over the fan and don't actually put any actual lubricant in there unless it's microscopic.
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On all the customers computers I use to build with lower end power supplies I would remove the fans from the CPU, PS unit, and/or case fans and lubricate them all with some motor oil.

I never had one come back seized or making noise... By the time I sold my company some 7 years later I must have built a few thousand units...

Just the "extra" I did for my customers...
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Originally Posted By: tmorris1
Way to go StevieC, now someone will argue over what kind of oil to use on the fan...


M1 0w40! I even use it on my furnace!
 
Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


How many drives were in the system you had the issue with?


Six big Ultrastars.


Niiiiiice!

I used REII's, but I've had two of them fail and WD has sent me back REIII's as replacements..... Which, interestingly enough, I've had ZERO failures with.....
 
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