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#1294637 - 11/26/08 09:21 PM high Lead in 8.3 cummins
abc123 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 10
Loc: iowa
Did a sample of a 8.3 cummins in a Magnum farm tractor with 3,000 hours Lead came back Critical at 156 copper was 1 and tin was also a 1 we use Cenpeco 15-40 in it with a cup of Justice Bros heavy duty lube additive cut filter open and found nothing what is the deal with the lead being so high sample was not contaminated at all. If bearings were wearing that bad shouldnt tin also be very high? the oil had 100 hours on it when changed does that additive have lead in it.

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#1294663 - 11/26/08 09:39 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: abc123]
wwillson Offline

Administrator


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 1534
Loc: Naperville, IL
Welcome to the board!

Could you post the entire UOA results?

Wayne

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#1295167 - 11/27/08 11:58 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: wwillson]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
Hello and welcome!

First off, it's nice to see another CDC/Case IH guy doing UOA. A few month ago we had the oil of our Maxxum 5120 analyzed after 790 hrs. Everything looked fine, other than lead being 12 PPM. 12 PPM is not too bad for a 790 hrs. drain interval, but 3-4 would be better, so we will be resampling after 450 - 500 hrs. on the current fill. Our copper was 3 PPM and tin was 0 PPM. The zero tin made me ask the same as you, whether it's bearing wear or not.

There is another Cenpeco 15w-40 UOA on this forum. It's from a John Deere and it shows 0 PPM lead, so your lead is nothing that should come from the oil itself.

Cenpeco - John Deere

Like Wayne pointed out, without knowing your entire UOA including Fe, Cr, Al.... and TBN/TAN (as far as tested), it is difficult to draw a conclusion.
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#1295175 - 11/27/08 12:20 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Extreme-Duty]
abc123 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 10
Loc: iowa
Here is the full test result:
Potassium 2
copper 2
sodium 4
iron 16
chromium 0
aluminum 2
silicon 9
lead 156
tin 0
soot 9
sulfation 21
oxidation 14
debris 6
viscosity 14.8
Like i said 3000 hours on motor oil is changed every 100 hours or so talked to a mechanic and said these motors are good for 6,000 hours before even thinking about checking bearings only thing i could see is the oil additive doing funny things Thanks for any ideas.

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#1295177 - 11/27/08 12:37 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: abc123]
abc123 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 10
Loc: iowa
Might i add that if bearing wear was serious wouldnt there also be a serious of amount of tin also? but i have 0 and also there should be higher amounts of copper also this test was done by a Cat lab. This tractor had been sitting for about 6 months before oil was changed it was warmed up and driven a few miles sample was taken in sample bottle while oil was draining from pan. Thanks for any help

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#1295190 - 11/27/08 01:05 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: abc123]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
Like I said before, increased lead but zero tin is what we have seen in our CDC engine aswell.

How old was this oil fill after these 100 hrs and what kind of duty cycle does it see? 14 PPM iron seems a little high for 100 hrs., so is it all hard field work?

I would say, if the lead is from the bearings, you might have some odd corrosion in your engine.

Also, what kind of diesel are using, generic farm diesel with max 500 ppm sulfur, or anything with biodiesel in it?

Any fuel additives added?

Anyone knowing the Justice Bros additive might be able to tell whether it has lead in it.
_________________________
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#1295202 - 11/27/08 01:32 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Extreme-Duty]
abc123 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 10
Loc: iowa
Yes it is all field work nothing that should over use it. oil is always changed every 100 give or take. generic diesel we are using cenpeco diesel kleenz also in diesel i have about 40 hours on oil right now probably put on another 20 or so this fall im gonna take another sample when done. Im kinda worried about sample but if it was very serious tin should be very high but there is 0 like i said the filter had nothing it.

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#1295227 - 11/27/08 02:37 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: abc123]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
The guy who posted this lead free John Deere analysis was using a diesel additive aswell, "Cenpeco super Diesel Klenz". I don't think the lead is from the engine, the oil nor the fuel additive used.

If I were you, I would stop using any oil additive. Resampling is a good idea. Also consider a TAN test. Btw, did the current UOA show a glycol reading?
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#1295235 - 11/27/08 03:12 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Extreme-Duty]
abc123 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 10
Loc: iowa
no glycol no water and no fuel dilution so what do you think the lead is from if it isnt from engine? do you think it is contaminated sample?or the additive more then likely? is a tan test?If the bearings were shot wouldnt there be excessive amounts of tin and copper and aluminum? If it is the additive how do they get by with selling something with so much lead?

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#1295614 - 11/28/08 02:06 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: abc123]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
It's hard to judge anything based on a single UOA. I guess before excessive copper bearing wear can show up, the lead-based overlay has to be somewhat compromised. I am not sure about the tin in CDC/Cummins bearings, as we had zero tin in our 5120 aswell.

Will a lead based bearing overlay always include tin?

As for the additive, if lead is part of the formulation, there is no reason why they should not get away with it. Someone knowing what's inside this product might be able to tell us more.

A minority of their customers may be doing oil analysis, so it's uncertain whether it's ever going to show up in other UOAs.

Personally, I would not add anything to a well formulated engine oil. Isn't Cenpeco a reputable brand in the Midwest?
_________________________
Been using EVER-SEEZ and Neverseal on all my stuff - I got it for free!

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#1296237 - 11/28/08 08:05 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Extreme-Duty]
abc123 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 10
Loc: iowa
Yes Cenpeco is a very good oil they have many customers in the midwest we use it in everything.Today i got back a sample we did on our combine this is straight 30 weight cenpeco with a cup of the JB additive oil in a DT 466 this motor has 4200 hours total and 800 on overhaul.

pottassium 2
copper 3
sodium 3
iron 12
chromium o
aluminum 2
silicon 8
lead 27
tin 1
soot 0
sulfation 20
oxidation 14
ferrous debris 5
viscosity 12.6
No antifreeze
No fuel
No Water

I dont know what to think about this sample compared to the other sample this motor had 80 hours on oil this motor had 27 lead and the other had 156 im more confused now then ever is it possible that a Dt466 and a cummins would have totally diffrent lead levels becuase they are diffrent motors in themselves? This combine motor is run wide open just about constant 10 hours a day is it possible the lead would burn Off?

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#1296423 - 11/29/08 01:57 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: abc123]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
If there is a lead-component in the JB additive, and if it is kept in suspention, it should not evaporate off. Lead itself, as a wear metal, should not be able to this at all.

Different engines can show different amounts of wear metal in UOA, but I don't think any of these bullet proof engines of yours should get above 5 PPM lead in 100 hours, even if they work hard. And I would say < 2 PPM per 250 hrs. is considered low.

You might start a new thread in the additive section, asking about the JB product and what's inside.
_________________________
Been using EVER-SEEZ and Neverseal on all my stuff - I got it for free!

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#1296424 - 11/29/08 02:03 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Extreme-Duty]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
I expect you to be a careful operater and that your equipment is well maintained. So by now, I would blame the JB stuff itself.
_________________________
Been using EVER-SEEZ and Neverseal on all my stuff - I got it for free!

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#1298225 - 12/01/08 09:14 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Extreme-Duty]
Rob_Roy Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Northern, NY
I wouldn't add anything to Cenpeco oil, it already has a very strong additive package. 100 hours is also a very short drain interval for this oil, we have obtained great UOA's on Cenpeco 15w40 with 300 hr drain intervals.
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#1304869 - 12/08/08 07:58 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Rob_Roy]
Steelhead Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 875
Loc: Washington
call Cummins
http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.jsp?siteId=1&langId=1033&menuId=6&overviewId=33&menuIndex=0

You may also contact us Monday through Friday, 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. EST at 1-800-DIESELS (1-800-343-7357). If you are located outside of North America, you can reach us at 812-377-3000.

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#1311065 - 12/14/08 05:57 AM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: Rob_Roy]
salesrep Offline


Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 3339
Loc: lllinois
 Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
I wouldn't add anything to Cenpeco oil, it already has a very strong additive package. 100 hours is also a very short drain interval for this oil, we have obtained great UOA's on Cenpeco 15w40 with 300 hr drain intervals.


Ditto. Especially with this short of intervals. No need to compromise the CEnpeco.
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#1320891 - 12/23/08 11:27 PM Re: high Lead in 8.3 cummins [Re: salesrep]
mpersell Offline


Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 273
Loc: Richardson, TX
Check all your containers of fresh oil and especially the cans used to fill the oil in the equipment. You may have a dirty barrel or dirty filler cans. Do you use a valve to tap the barrel? Does the filler can have lead soldered seams?
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